"Stand-by" as response for VFR flight following?

[TimRF79]

I tried to find where and how exactly VFR flight following is regulated.
From what I found about radar services for VFR flights, is that it is solely at pilot discretion.
This would make me believe, that if on VFR flight following and not in Class B, C, or D airspace a pilot comment of "cancel VFR flight following" should be all that is needed to terminate the service.

However, what if ATC response "stand-by", "unable", or just gives you vectors and then later (5 to 10min) cancels your VFR FF?
or in other words can ATC deny cancelation of VFR FF?

 

[eman1200]

don't know the technicalities of it but I recently flew into KCUB (which is under KCAE's class C) with flight following and about 12-15nm out I wanted to cancel. he said to please just stay with him for a little longer which I was cool with. didn't matter to me, as although I wanted to get on ctaf, I knew he was coordinating flights into KCUB as well. no biggie.

 

[GeorgeC]

It's been rare, but I've had them ask me to hang on for a few miles until I was clear of traffic / jumpers / etc.

 

[PaulS]

That means they keeping you away from bad stuff usually.

 

[TimRF79]

but there is a difference between them asking you to hang-on, versus to just make you hang-on (question, can they do that?)

 

[PaulS]

but there is a difference between them asking you to hang-on, versus to just make you hang-on (question, can they do that?)

Yes, pretty much. Look at it this way, they don't want you there against your will. If they ask you to stay or say standby, they have a good reason. Could be nearby traffic or it could be they are working more important traffic on another frequency and will get back to you.

 

[PaulS]

Especially if they are giving vectors, you can't just opt out because you don't like it. But again if they are giving you vectors they are keeping our of areas you don't want to be.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Especially if they are giving vectors, you can't just opt out because you don't like it. But again if they are giving you vectors they are keeping our of areas you don't want to be.

Or areas that are inconvenient for them.

 

[geezer]

I believe that if you are in airspace that requires that you be in communication with the tower, etc., they will require you to remain with them.

This would not exactly be refusing canceling, as you are required for other reasons to be responding and navigating in co ordination with the aircraft they are controlling.

 

[TCABM]

@RadarContact or one of our AT ‘ers can probably best answer.

 

[Llewtrah381]

I faced this situation a few months back, when I forgot they were swamped with the F1 at Circuit of the Americas. I called in with just my N number and they replied to stay out of the Class C / “stand by”. Felt like I was in purgatory or something. Was I given an instruction? Do they want me to hang around?Should I try again? I hung around for about 5 minutes with the controller still swamped and no “Calling Approach and told to stand by - state your request” or something. I just departed the area.

Once home, I called their QA person (I’ve called him with several questions before - INCREDIBLY helpful) and explained. I said I had no problem being told to stay out but “standby” created an ambiguity. He totally agreed and talked with the controllers about it.

I honestly think they just do it reflexively and don’t stop and consider the confusion on our end. But as in other situations, making a call and chatting it through is a win for everyone.

 

[4CornerFlyer]

The original poster is asking about termination of VFR advisories rather than entry to airspace, and he specified he was not in regulated airspace. In the situation as described, the most likely reason is that there is a potential traffic conflict ahead. Otherwise, why would a controller care if you departed the frequency? In most cases, they would tell you this, but I suppose that didn't happen this once. This really does not happen very often without a reason.
Jon

 

[PastZTL]

I would tell you to "standby" if:
1. I heard your callsign but not the rest of the transmission and was busy with something else.
2. I heard your request but I had higher priority duties that prevented me from saying, "November one two three four radar services terminated, squawk one two zero zero, frequency change approved," and remove your flight plan from the system.

The only reason I might say unable is if you were approaching Class B airspace, but I'd probably (if I had time) explain the situation so you knew why it was important to stay with flight following.

I'll let the terminal guys talk about their operations.

 

[Clip4]

VFR traffic advisories are on a work load permitting basis. Generally ATC will not accept your service request if they are too busy. This is especially true for the Bravo TRACONS.

I have had TRACONs terminate service a rather long way from my destination. Many times TRACONs will cancel VFR service as you exit their airspace without offering to continue service with the next TRACON or Center.

 

[dmspilot]

The original poster is asking about termination of VFR advisories rather than entry to airspace

The only airspace not regulated is Class G.

 

[schmookeeg]

Aren't you required to comply with their instructions while on flight following?

Why would you not want to "hang on" if requested? Out of manners if nothing else?

 

[Lindberg]

I faced this situation a few months back, when I forgot they were swamped with the F1 at Circuit of the Americas. I called in with just my N number and they replied to stay out of the Class C / “stand by”.

Which one was it? If they say your callsign and "standby," you can enter the Class C. If they say "Stay of of the Class C" or just "stand by" without your tail number, or both, then you can't enter the Class C, but you can certainly fly away if you choose to.

7-8-4 ESTABLISHING TWO‐WAY COMMUNICATIONS
Class C service requires pilots to establish two‐way radio communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call with, “(a/c call sign) standby,” radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.

PHRASEOLOGY-

(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap7_section_8.html

 

[Lindberg]

or in other words can ATC deny cancelation of VFR FF?

There have been multiple threads on this, but the bottom line is that unless you are in Class G airspace or have an emergency, you must follow ATC's instructions. That includes an instruction to "remain on this frequency."

14 CFR 91.123(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

 

[flyingron]

VFR traffic advisories are on a work load permitting basis. Generally ATC will not accept your service request if they are too busy. This is especially true for the Bravo TRACONS.

I have had TRACONs terminate service a rather long way from my destination. Many times TRACONs will cancel VFR service as you exit their airspace without offering to continue service with the next TRACON or Center.

PCT is the worst these days. The SOP it seems is to always drop SFRA departures even if they had filed for and requested advisories to continue. I end up waiting until I'm in one of the outer sectors and call back in again.

14 CFR 91.123(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

So what kind of instruction is "standby?" I assumed it meant, don't call anymore, I'll call you, not YOU MUST STAY WHERE YOU ARE AND AWAIT FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS.

 

[midlifeflyer]

in other words can ATC deny cancelation of VFR FF?

Yes. 91.123 requires us to obey instructions in controlled airspace. In the US, that's A,B,C,D,& E.

"Standby" is a completely different question. It's just, "we'll get back to you." With callsign, it's the establishment of 2-way coms. Without callsign it's not. That's mostly applicable to airspace entry.

 

[midlifeflyer]

don't know the technicalities of it but I recently flew into KCUB (which is under KCAE's class C) with flight following and about 12-15nm out I wanted to cancel. he said to please just stay with him for a little longer which I was cool with. didn't matter to me, as although I wanted to get on ctaf, I knew he was coordinating flights into KCUB as well. no biggie.

In class E, traffic is almost always the reason they ask you or tell you to stay with them.

A variation on the theme. I've gotten "stay with me" when canceling IFR. Not a refusal to let me cancel IFR, but stay with them for VFR advisories. Same reason - traffic.

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

Wow. Near me it’s difficult to have them accept your flight following requests while others can’t cancel.

 

[dtuuri]

However, what if ATC response "stand-by", "unable", or just gives you vectors and then later (5 to 10min) cancels your VFR FF?
or in other words can ATC deny cancelation of VFR FF?

ATC can't even stop an IFR flight from canceling:

§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.
(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.
​

"Stand by", though, might be construed as unable to understand your request. In that case you haven't canceled anything.

 

[flyingron]

I remember this exchange:

PILOT: I'd like to cancel VFR.
ATC: Is that some backdoor way of asking for an IFR clearance?

 

[Star Keeper]

I have had TRACONs terminate service a rather long way from my destination. Many times TRACONs will cancel VFR service as you exit their airspace without offering to continue service with the next TRACON or Center.

I got this behavior when under VFR FF with Orlando they terminated services and gave me the Tampa Frequency to reach out to. In discussing it with my CFI he thought maybe they were not sure if Tampa was taking VFR FF pickups so basically gave me the cold transfer instead of the warm handoff.

 

[Palmpilot]

...However, what if ATC response "stand-by", "unable", or just gives you vectors and then later (5 to 10min) cancels your VFR FF?
or in other words can ATC deny cancelation of VFR FF?

Did this actually happen, or is it a hypothetical situation?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Did this actually happen, or is it a hypothetical situation?

It sounds like a hypothetical but it actually happens. A scenario like it was recently discussed over the course of 3 episodes of the Opposing Bases podcast. It started with the description of an actual event - controller refusing cancellation and vectoring the pilot out of their way for traffic. It was also out if the pilot's way The pilot wasn't happy about it.

Interesting discussion especially in that the two controllers who do the podcast at first thought the pilot could just hang up the phone.

 

[dtuuri]

Interesting discussion especially in that the two controllers who do the podcast at first thought the pilot could just hang up the phone.

Alls he hasta do is tell 'em he wants to air-file an IFR — they'll drop him like a hot potato.

 

[Radar Contact]

I called in with just my N number and they replied to stay out of the Class C / “stand by”.

Once home, I called their QA person (I’ve called him with several questions before - INCREDIBLY helpful) and explained. I said I had no problem being told to stay out but “standby” created an ambiguity. He totally agreed and talked with the controllers about it.

I honestly think they just do it reflexively and don’t stop and consider the confusion on our end. But as in other situations, making a call and chatting it through is a win for everyone.

The controller did the exact correct thing by the book.
7−8−4. ESTABLISHING TWO-WAY COMMUNICATIONS
Class C service requires pilots to establish two-way radio communications before entering Class C airspace. If the controller responds to a radio call with, “(a/c call sign) standby,” radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter Class C airspace. If workload or traffic conditions prevent immediate provision of Class C services, inform the pilot to remain outside Class C airspace until conditions permit the services to be provided.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY.

There is no ambiguity. Either the QA person was just pacifying you, they were somehow ignorant of the most basic principles of ATC or you simply made up the story.

 

[Radar Contact]

in other words can ATC deny cancelation of VFR FF?

I believe in other than G airspace, they can. That said, I never have and probably never will. I would explain my compelling reason why I think you should stick with me for a bit and if you don’t acquiesce, I cut you loose.

 

[midlifeflyer]

“standby” created an ambiguity.

The controller did the exact correct thing by the book.
There is no ambiguity. Either the QA person was just pacifying you, they were somehow ignorant of the most basic principles of ATC or you simply made up the story.

I agree. "I personally never learned what that standard phrasing means" is not the definition of "ambiguity." You quoted the ATC manual. For pilots, this is from the notes to AIM 3-2-4:

1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft callsign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace.
***
3. It is important to understand that if the controller responds to the initial radio call without using the aircraft identification, radio communications have not been established and the pilot may not enter the Class C airspace.​

IOW,

• ATC uses callsign = two-way communication established.
• ATC doesn't use callsign = two-way communication not established.

It's probably better if ATC has the time, to add the "remain clear" language. Just because of gaps in pilot knowledge. Student pilots who have gone into Class C airspace during training probably got this drummed into them. It's even used at busier Class D airports. But those who kept away for one reason or another might never had the opportunity to learn it, so using "remain clear" can help avoid a deal (although I've seen discussions where pilots didn't know what that meant either [sigh]).

 

[Llewtrah381]

There is no ambiguity. Either the QA person was just pacifying you, they were somehow ignorant of the most basic principles of ATC or you simply made up the story.

Fair enough, thanks.

That may be in the book but I’d still say, on the pilot’s side, it sets the same expectation as when I say “Houston Center, N12345, request” and get the reply “N12345, Houston Center, standby”. “Standby” in either case seems to set the expectation that I’m supposed to wait for them to be able to get back to me - but they WILL get back to me in turn.

I’m fully aware I didn’t “legally” have a requirement to hang around for a conversation that wouldn’t happen but the phraseology, by the book or not, sets the “behavioral” nudge to do so at least on this pilot’s side.

 

[TimRF79]

Did this actually happen, or is it a hypothetical situation?

It actually happened.
It was very busy for the ATC class B controller, however not a high amount of traffic in my direct vicinity.
Below Class B shelf, I was given altitude and vectors putting me straight into a Class D.
I pointed out to ATC about this and asked something along the lines if they contacted the Class D tower/ or if I had clearance into the Class D (I was certain that he had not called them as he was very busy).
ATC came back with a snippy lecture that if they tell me the vectors and altitude I am cleared to enter the Class D.
The Class D can be very busy (student and jet operation), and I rather stay away, which I could have by descending and heading towards my destination.
So I asked to cancel VFR FF.
To which I was told something along the lines of 'No'.

When the VFR FF was cancelled by ATC, I was really close to the class D and had to make quite a steep turn (steeper than ideal my passenger liked) to avoid it, followed by a steep descent to avoid a Class B shelf.

The preference would have been to start a shallow descent and turn while outside Class B, long before Class D to go around Class D and stay under all Class B shelves.

It was all legal and safe, comfortable for my passenger, not so much.

 

[NoHeat]

PHRASEOLOGY−
(A/c call sign) REMAIN OUTSIDE CHARLIE AIRSPACE AND STANDBY.

That's interesting.

I've twice been told by Class-C approach controllers to remain outside charlie airspace, but their phraseology was a bit different. Neither used the word "standby" and neither used my call sign, but the message was clear and everything turned out ok.

Once, when it was incredibly busy at Omaha with business jets arriving all at once for a big event, there was just one approach controller, and he was hectic. When I called from a piston plane, he told me: "VFR aircraft calling, remain outside charlie airspace, I don't have time for you." Different phraseology, but I understood. By avoiding mentioning my tail number, it was obvious that I couldn't enter charlie anyway, no matter what else the controller said. And it was clear that he couldn't deal with me anytime soon. I thought he handled a difficult situation well.

 

[Radar Contact]

Standby” in either case seems to set the expectation that I’m supposed to wait for them to be able to get back to me - but they WILL get back to me in turn.

In turn yes. But depending on higher priority duties, probably isn’t chronological. They are humans and that’s why the book says for the caller to re-establish contact if lengthy.

STAND BY− Means the controller or pilot must pause for a few seconds, usually to attend to other duties of a higher priority. Also means to wait as in “stand by for clearance.” The caller should reestablish contact if a delay is lengthy. “Stand by” is not an approval or denial.

 

[Llewtrah381]

“Stand by” is not an approval or denial.

Agree, although when coupled with “stay clear of Class C”, as in this case, I had no ambiguity about whether or not I could enter the Class C. The “ambiguity”, such as it was, was whether or not he expected me to stick around for him to ask what I wanted later on. Given that he didn’t read back my N number, it seemed like I wasn’t on his “to do list” but in my rules-following mind it felt odd just leaving a “standby” hanging. That’s all…

 

[bbchien]

Here in C90 territory, that is the same as “get outta my turbojet airspace”. Sorry. C90 gets no support from me as you have to provide the service to get support.

I say, “Enjoy the pay cut when the axe comes”. Sigh. FF and clearance through the Bravo…we pay taxes, too.

I wish I had a copy of the old C90 website “feedback questionnaire”, in which the last line was “position within Airline Company”

You get no props nor support from me.

How to get from 1C5 to UGN? Fly a 35 DME arc on FF until you get to 7000. Then the ask intentions. Only when it becomes apparent that thou you will 500 ft vertical sep @ Benky, will they give you a clearance through the Bravo. I say “piffle” on you C90 guys.

“weee won’t help you”
“Weee don’t hear you!” And so at budget time, neither can I…..

 

[midlifeflyer]

Agree, although when coupled with “stay clear of Class C”, as in this case, I had no ambiguity about whether or not I could enter the Class C. The “ambiguity”, such as it was, was whether or not he expected me to stick around for him to ask what I wanted later on. Given that he didn’t read back my N number, it seemed like I wasn’t on his “to do list” but in my rules-following mind it felt odd just leaving a “standby” hanging. That’s all…

"Standby" without the N number practically means, "I'll get back to you if I can." They usually will at some point but with no comm established, there's no reason for you to be there when if or when they do.

Consider: you are heading to a fairly busy airport in busy airspace. About 20 miles out, you decide to ask Approach for flight following to hep with spotting traffic. ATC responds with, "aircraft calling, stand by." I'm not going to delay my approach and landing for that. Are you? And if so, what would you do?

 

[Radar Contact]

Here in C90 territory, that is the same as “get outta my turbojet airspace”. Sorry. C90 gets no support from me as you have to provide the service to get support.

I say, “Enjoy the pay cut when the axe comes”. Sigh. FF and clearance through the Bravo…we pay taxes, too.

I wish I had a copy of the old C90 website “feedback questionnaire”, in which the last line was “position within Airline Company”

You get no props nor support from me.

How to get from 1C5 to UGN? Fly a 35 DME arc on FF until you get to 7000. Then the ask intentions. Only when it becomes apparent that thou you will 500 ft vertical sep @ Benky, will they give you a clearance through the Bravo. I say “piffle” on you C90 guys.

“weee won’t help you”
“Weee don’t hear you!” And so at budget time, neither can I…..

I didn’t realize you had a say in controller pay…always thought that was contractual/President/Congress.

While I hear the pilot side of your brain clearly whining, I have to hope the MD side knows all 70 people at a facility aren’t the same. Some give Bravo clearances when able, most all give good flight following.

I wouldn’t expect to sit in my cockpit and have full SA of what’s going on in an ER/OR. Not sure why you’d expect to sit in your Seneca and have full SA of over 19,000 cubic miles of airspace, with 15-20 control positions, National orders/local orders/8 separate LOA’s, 2 core 30 airports with automatic releases, etc.

Your clow to UGN direct gives you expeditious handling but it’s on the back of numerous better performing jet aircraft that will get crappy service to expedite you.

 

[pfarber]

"Standby" without the N number practically means, "I'll get back to you if I can." They usually will at some point but with no comm established, there's no reason for you to be there when if or when they do.

Consider: you are heading to a fairly busy airport in busy airspace. About 20 miles out, you decide to ask Approach for flight following to hep with spotting traffic. ATC responds with, "aircraft calling, stand by." I'm not going to delay my approach and landing for that. Are you? And if so, what would you do?

But this is a half truth.

If you make yourself an issue (ie wanting to transit a departure corridor) then you shall not pass.

If you are not in an arrival/departure area and generally out of the way then it should not be a problem .