SS v FS Fuel - How much fuel / wear does starting an engine do?

mandm

mandm

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I’m calculating the differences in SS v FS fuel prices and while FS is more, I’m wondering how much fuel along with wear and tear is used to start up the aircraft (PA28R180), taxi over, shut down, and fuel up.

Let’s assume I’m flying or returning from flight, that’s an extra start cycle plus minimal taxi time (<1 minute).

Let’s make another assumption of 2 start cycles, such as when I returned the other day and went to the hangar first, then after all was good I taxi’ed to the fuel pump and back.

The current difference in fuel prices is $0.35 per gallon. If adding 20 gallons that’s an additional $7 or 1.2 gallons if compared to the SS fuel pump. I probably normally add between 35-40 gallons.

Anyway not exactly trying to save on $7 but more thinking about treating the engine the best she deserves.
 
FWIW, I always tow my aircraft from the pump to the hangar...
 
idahoflier said:
FWIW, I always tow my aircraft from the pump to the hangar...
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Ha. I cannot, unless I get one of those motorized tow bars. There’s a small elevation to my hangar that isn’t the most fun, but I do it. Maybe I’ll add a tow bar to my birthday list.
 
In my neck of the woods FS is a misdemeanor and could possibly end up with you registering as an offender.
 
When the engine is already hot, start cycles aren't a big deal. It's cold starts that cause wear.

I'd probably let them do it for 35 cents/ gal, but I'm pretty lazy. My situation is that I can fly 20 minutes and save $2/gal, which makes it a free flight using congressional math.
 
I think it's a bigger issue for those fussy engines that don't like to hot start. I wouldn't worry about wear on a hot/already-well-oiled engine.

Also the laziness factor, which seems to be my impetus :)
 
The homedrome pretty much equalizes the SS/FS price for hangar tenants, so I let them do the work since they’re pulling it out/putting it back each flight. If we need gas at a lunch stop, I’ve got the time, and can save $25+ I’ll do it.

If we’re empty and I can save $1/gal, I’ll take care of it.
 
Salty said:
Seriously. I have a 90 gal tank on a trailer with a pump on it.
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Same here. Airpark living is great!

I have been buying fuel at Okeechobee more often. The price is about the same as from the company that delivers to us, but he doesn’t take credit cards. If I use my card I get some cash back; not as much for auto fuel, but more than if I wrote a check.
 
TCABM said:
I let them do the work since they’re pulling it out/putting it back each flight.
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I don't let anybody else mess with my plane, not that I frequent the kind of airports where such services are available. But then I'm not flying a run of the mill Cessna or Piper, either.
 
Since I have to takeoff and fly 19 miles to get to the airport with fuel, self serve and full serve are the same. Even at my old airport, they stopped fueling at the hangars, so I had to move the plane after (or before) it was fueled.
 
flyingron said:
Still have to move the airplane.
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But the engine is still warm. The OP's problem is he puts the plane to bed with not full tanks.

When land back at my home drome or my final destination for the day, I land and taxi directly to the fuel pump. Of course I shutdown to fuel, but the subsequent start just minutes later is a hot start.

I learned this habit having a plane partner for 20 years. We NEVER argued about fuel because the rule was you put her to bed full.
 
Domenick said:
But the engine is still warm. The OP's problem is he puts the plane to bed with not full tanks.

When land back at my home drome or my final destination for the day, I land and taxi directly to the fuel pump. Of course I shutdown to fuel, but the subsequent start just minutes later is a hot start.

I learned this habit having a plane partner for 20 years. We NEVER argued about fuel because the rule was you put her to bed full.
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I generally fill her up before bed, a couple times I’m tired and won’t though but she will be in the hangar and usually with half tanks or more (25-35gal out of 50gal). That brings up another thing are there fuel bladders that would dry out if not full (never really saw or looked at them)? When I look inside it appears to be metal but I think some aircraft have neoprene rubber bladders (if I remember reading some POH’s)?

I know some other aircraft users will tow their airplane after fueling as hot starting is difficult. I typically need 2 tries for a hot start, just I haven’t the magic touch on the controls when hot starting yet.
 
Domenick said:
I learned this habit having a plane partner for 20 years. We NEVER argued about fuel because the rule was you put her to bed full.
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We do similar, except we put the plane to bed with fuel to the tabs (50g).
 
The reality is once you have the engine started and oil circulated through the engine a second start isn’t that bad for the engine.
 
So I contacted the airport and found out that self service and full service fuel is currently the same price as the group of hangars I am in has an agreement on price. But I do remember in the past I was not always charged the correct price. So I’ll try full service and have to check the receipts for proper pricing but if it’s what was mentioned, I’m pretty happy. I’d be able to call the FBO while taxing for fuel and the truck arrives promptly when I arrive at the hangar.
 
I wondered what FS and SS meant. I haven’t had anyone else pump my fuel this century!
 
How can anyone always know their payload for the next flight, at the end of their last flight?
If you always top off, are you not occasionally defueling so as to not be overgross on some flights?
 
Clip4 said:
a second start isn’t that bad for the engine.
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Why would it be bad at all? I get the starter is getting a workout, but why would a hot start be bad at all. Hint - it’s not.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
How can anyone always know their payload for the next flight, at the end of their last flight?
If you always top off, are you not occasionally defueling so as to not be overgross on some flights?
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Agreement. 95% of our missions are pilot, wife, and light luggage. Thus, fuel to the tabs works weight wise, and it’s easy to see when you’ve replaced the fuel used.
 
Our field recently added more staff and is now providing full service Mon-Sat. Fuel price is the same as self serve, and they come out to help with the SS.

I usually start, warm up, taxi to the pump, let it idle another minute, then shut down. At least this way I get to check for leaks while fueling. Then go fly.

One time I tried FS, but we had to push plane to the end of the T-hangar row to pump (so fire trucks have access?), fuel, walk to building, pay, walk back to plane. Wasn’t worth bothering them for 10-12 gallons.

Summertime, I like to only carry required fuel plus an hour reserve so don’t top off. I also don’t like rolling my plane into hangar by myself and full fuel.
 
If you do the credit card rewards, verify how the retailer is categorized. Only self serve by me gets tagged as fuel and nets the 4% cash back vs 1%. That gets me about $10 extra back per fill-up.
 
masloki said:
If you do the credit card rewards, verify how the retailer is categorized. Only self serve by me gets tagged as fuel and nets the 4% cash back vs 1%. That gets me about $10 extra back per fill-up.
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Smart! Never thought of that.
 
masloki said:
If you do the credit card rewards, verify how the retailer is categorized. Only self serve by me gets tagged as fuel and nets the 4% cash back vs 1%. That gets me about $10 extra back per fill-up.
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what card are you using?
 
Hot starts are better than cold starts, but once the journals sink on to the bearings and the rings dig in to the cylinder walls, it's back to metal-to-metal contact.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
How can anyone always know their payload for the next flight, at the end of their last flight?
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We don’t, but our partnership agreement stipulates pay for your own gas, so the plane is left full for the next partner.

Let'sgoflying! said:
…If you always top off, are you not occasionally defueling so as to not be overgross on some flights?
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It’s a 172 and it’s a policy everyone agrees to as a condition of buying in. Owners are expected to operate within the given limitations.
 
schmookeeg said:
I think it's a bigger issue for those fussy engines that don't like to hot start. I wouldn't worry about wear on a hot/already-well-oiled engine.

Also the laziness factor, which seems to be my impetus :)
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How long does it take you to fill it???????

Hot starts are after 30 - 60 minutes of heat soak.
 
Pinecone said:
How long does it take you to fill it???????

Hot starts are after 30 - 60 minutes of heat soak.
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10 minutes. Then I stink of fuel and manual labor and never-washed fuel hose and itchy scratches from the frayed grounding wire. Linemen are standing by to snick an extra $40 from me to handle it.

Hot starts aren't *my* specific problem. :) I've flown some 470-powered Barons and Bos that seemed to cook their fuel pump immediately upon shutdown. I imagine they also think hard about those quick turn logistics.
 
Having a high wing and getting older I prefer FS ,if the price difference isn’t that much. Usually only take between 10 and 13 gallons.
 
My field they charge 10 cents per gallon more to bring the truck. I am going more and more full serve.

I still SS if I happen to have time. But I tend to have enough in the thanks for a reasonable flight, so I would have to fuel before TO which means later TO.
 
After emailing back and forth about the full service rate, when I got home last night I ordered full service fuel, a receipt was emailed to me and I was charged the wrong price o_O (0.82 more per gallon)
 
Currently kugn is 5.80 ss vs 7.12 fs for those of without being a member of the special club. I'll go SS for that. At least according to 100ll.com
 
My FBO charges 10 cents per gallon more for full service. For that, I call and have them fuel the plane. My time is worth more than that.
 
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