Sport pilot or private pilot?

Vance Breese

Vance Breese

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Oct 10, 2014
Messages
1,061
Location
Santa Maria, CA
Display Name
Display name:
Vance Breese
I have a sixty two year old friend who wants to fly a gyroplane, is healthy and lives in the Los Angeles megalopolis.
He has no aviation experience other than some time flying with me time and the gyroplane he is interested in is sport pilot legal.
He doesn’t want to fly at night but does want to fly cross country.
I feel he is not likely solo in the minimum number of hours.
He wants to get enough training to minimize the risks.
He feels that a sport pilot rating is much easier to get than a private pilot rating and there is less to learn.
I don’t see that much difference and suggested he go for a private pilot, rotorcraft gyroplane rating.
What say you?
 
I am an advocate of starting with the sport pilot (this is what I am doing myself right now) if you are interested in flying for fun. It gets the license a little quicker (not half the time like the minimums makes it out to be) and doesnt have too many restrictions beyond the aircraft limitations for the fair weather flyer. Doubly so if the plane he is interested in qualifies as LSA.

As for enough training to minimize the risks, that is up to the student and instructor how far they go beyond the requirement of the license. For example I've done some night and instrument training of which neither are required under the sport pilot license while in between waiting for windows to open up between cross countries.

In talking to my instructor i have heard its also quite easy to convert for SPL to PPL especially if you have been flying regularly. Its a bit of additional instrument training followed by night time really. Most of the other requirements would already be covered from your previous SP training or experience flying under your SPL. Just make sure that you use a CFI and not a sport pilot only instructor so all your dual still counts towards your PPL if you want to convert.
 
Last edited:
If he can get a medical he should get his private.

End of the day people finish in about the same amount of time.

Even if he doesn't want to fly at night or anything, he should have the training, stuff happens.

He can fly LSAs under SP rules as a private pilot, and only has to re-up his medical if he wants to fly non LSAs.

In all the people I've trained and I've talked to, I've met quite a few who wished they got their private instead of a SP license, I have NEVER met a person who wished for it the other way around.
 
I too believe that the PPL is a better route. If I remember correctly, he doesn't have to do the night flying and if he chooses not to, he can get a PPL with a night flying restriction. I'm not positive about this though.
 
Gyroplane? Sport all the way. He ain't going on vacation and renting a C-172. The only thing a gyroplane rated only private or sport pilot is ever going to fly is an owned gyroplane or dual in a demo.
 
Ain't that complicated to pre-screen oneself before going in to the AME.
 
I'm a believer in the sport pilot rating. If it meets his needs. Get the rating and enjoy.
 
In LA?

Good God that airspace is gonna suck without the Class B/C/D endorsement. Ooh, you get to fly patterns in Compton.

And he'll want to fly nights the first time he spends a little more time somewhere than he intended in winter. And SOMEday he might want a second passenger.

When you start adding in all the SP endorsements, you end up with a training syllabus that looks a whole lot like the private pilot syllabus, takes just as long, but doesn't allow you the same privileges.

Sport pilot restrictions suck. Avoid if you can.
 
Also living in SoCal, if he ever decides to fly to Mexico he will need a ICAO license for that, ie PPL.
 
An endorsement done during training covers airspace. Night in a gyroplane? Dunno, never flown a gyroplane, guessing it is probably unpleasant, never liked flying little helicopters at night. Second passenger? He already intends to buy an LSA legal gyroplane there is no second passenger and there is no gyroplane on the planet he could conceivably rent with more then one passenger seat. Y'all have stop thinking like vanilla airplane drivers. Sport is perfect for the guy.
MAKG1 said:
In LA?

Good God that airspace is gonna suck without the Class B/C/D endorsement. Ooh, you get to fly patterns in Compton.

And he'll want to fly nights the first time he spends a little more time somewhere than he intended in winter. And SOMEday he might want a second passenger.

When you start adding in all the SP endorsements, you end up with a training syllabus that looks a whole lot like the private pilot syllabus, takes just as long, but doesn't allow you the same privileges.

Sport pilot restrictions suck. Avoid if you can.
Click to expand...
 
I'm not an expert but can't he just train for private and pick up the sport when he meets the criteria? He'd have to use a regular CFI and his solo work would have to be in LSA but in the end it would all count towards private if he decided to go on.
 
I started SP and ended up PP. My PP instructor was cheaper and far more skilled than the SP instructors I used. Personally, I wished I'd done PP from the start. A new student does not have the skills to evaluate his instructor.
 
Old Geek said:
I started SP and ended up PP. My PP instructor was cheaper and far more skilled than the SP instructors I used. Personally, I wished I'd done PP from the start. A new student does not have the skills to evaluate his instructor.
Click to expand...

Plus the fees and fun of two check rides.
 
MBDiagMan said:
If I remember correctly, he doesn't have to do the night flying and if he chooses not to, he can get a PPL with a night flying restriction. I'm not positive about this though.
Click to expand...
That is not possible, and I am positive about it. The only exemption from the night flying requirement is for pilots in Alaska flying during the no-night summer, and then they have six months to get the night requirements completed or they lose the ticket. See 14 CFR 61.109(d)(2) and 61.110 for details.

My feeling is that based on the described situation, Sport Pilot is the best route to go, as it gives the OP's friend all the privileges he needs with the least difficulty and lowest cost. If he decides later he wants the additional privileges of PP, he can go that route, but there's no apparent reason for him to do that at this time.
 
Last edited:
If he was going airplane I would probably recommend PP unless he has ready access to a aircraft the qualifies for sport. In airplane it is generally cheaper or at least about the same cost for PP vs SP.

For gyroplane, I think it is no contest, unless he has a specific reason to go PP he should go SP.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Thank you all for your opinions.
It will make for a lively conversation with my friend.
I am still confused about what the actual difference is between a Sport Pilot and a Private Pilot.
I would appreciate if someone would help to quantify it for me.
What is it exactly that a Sport Pilot doesn’t need to know that a private pilot does?
This is assuming that the Sport Pilot wants the training and sign off for flying into B, C and D airfields.
Is the check ride for proficiency less rigorous with a Sport Pilot instructor compared to a check ride with a designated examiner?The practical test standards for my private seemed pretty low to me.
Thank you.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
That is not possible, and I am positive about it. The only exemption from the night flying requirement is for pilots in Alaska flying during the no-night summer, and then they have six months to get the night requirements completed or they lose the ticket. See 14 CFR 61.109(d)(2) and 61.110 for details.

My feeling is that based on the described situation, Sport Pilot is the best route to go, as it gives the OP's friend all the privileges he needs with the least difficulty and lowest cost. If he decides later he wants the additional privileges of PP, he can go that route, but there's no apparent reason for him to do that at this time.
Click to expand...

Thank you Ron,
61.110 c appears to me to allow a private pilot certificate with the limitation “Night flying prohibited.”
Am I misinterpreting 61.110c?
I find the FARs confusing.

 
Vance Breese said:
I am still confused about what the actual difference is between a Sport Pilot and a Private Pilot.
I would appreciate if someone would help to quantify it for me.
Click to expand...
The basic differences are that a Sport Pilot cannot ly at night, and cannot fly anything that does not qualify as a Light Sport Aircraft. In addition, without the endorsements discussed above, a Sport Pilot cannot fly into Class B/C/D airspace, and cannot fly in countries that do not recognize the Sport Pilot certificate (the Bahamas do, and IIRC Canada does, but not beyond those limits).

What is it exactly that a Sport Pilot doesn’t need to know that a private pilot does?[/QUOTE]Compare 61.105 with 61.309.

Is the check ride for proficiency less rigorous with a Sport Pilot instructor compared to a check ride with a designated examiner?
Click to expand...
For the initial Sport Pilot certificate issuance, you must fly with an examiner just as you would for Private. Sport Pilot instructors can only sign off on additional category/class ratings for someone who already holds a Sport Pilot certificate, and then only if another instructor has already trained and recommended that pilot for that additional rating.
 
Last edited:
Vance Breese said:
61.110 c appears to me to allow a private pilot certificate with the limitation “Night flying prohibited.”
Click to expand...
It does, but only for "A person who receives flight training in and resides in the State of Alaska", and then that person must "comply with the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart within the 12-calendar-month period after the issuance of the pilot certificate" or "the certificate will become invalid".

And apologies for getting the 12-month period wrong in my earlier post.
 
Ron Levy said:
It does, but only for "A person who receives flight training in and resides in the State of Alaska", and then that person must "[/FONT][/SIZE]comply with the appropriate night flight training requirements of this subpart within the 12-calendar-month period after the issuance of the pilot certificate" or "the certificate will become invalid".

And apologies for getting the 12-month period wrong in my earlier post.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your thoughtful answer Ron.
My confusion about FAR 61.110[(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation "Night flying prohibited." This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as
appropriate.]
I don’t see any reference to Alaska or one year.
What am I missing?
 
Prohibition of night flying is mainly due to medical reasons, like color blindness. Even if it is prohibited once the pilot has their ticket, part 61 still requires 3 hours of night flight as a requirement for completion of the PP certificate. Just had a lengthy discussion about this in a class yesterday.
 
I initially got my SP and then got my PPL. The check ride was nearly identical except for the flight by reference to instruments part on the private. I have literally flown my LSA all over the country as a Sport Pilot. given your friend's desires, I would go SP.

Carl
 
Private pilot license is do much more useful. A thread was started in this section a bit ago about someone who spent over 20,000 dollars to get the sport license. That's not the normal but the myth that sport pilots license is cheaper is just a myth I'd imagine. I'll tell you this, after you get the license, renting a LSA is really not much cheaper( could be more in fact) than a Cessna or a piper so it's just really hard to imagine anyone really getting a sport pilot license.
 
Vance Breese said:
Thank you for your thoughtful answer Ron.
My confusion about FAR 61.110[(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation "Night flying prohibited." This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as
appropriate.]
I don’t see any reference to Alaska or one year.
What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Looks like you're right. There is a night training exemption specifically for gyrocraft, powered parachute, and weight-shift control which allows for an indefinite, by-choice "Night flying prohibited" restriction. Few of us know about it because it's not applicable to airplanes, and you read the regs closest.
 
Duuuude read. Guy wants to fly a gyroplane, there is nothing about SP that will hold him back in a gyroplane unless he steals a big old one from a museum.:lol:
jspilot said:
Private pilot license is do much more useful. A thread was started in this section a bit ago about someone who spent over 20,000 dollars to get the sport license. That's not the normal but the myth that sport pilots license is cheaper is just a myth I'd imagine. I'll tell you this, after you get the license, renting a LSA is really not much cheaper( could be more in fact) than a Cessna or a piper so it's just really hard to imagine anyone really getting a sport pilot license.
Click to expand...
 
Vance Breese said:
I have a sixty two year old friend who wants to fly a gyroplane, is healthy and lives in the Los Angeles megalopolis.
He has no aviation experience other than some time flying with me time and the gyroplane he is interested in is sport pilot legal.
He doesn’t want to fly at night but does want to fly cross country.
I feel he is not likely solo in the minimum number of hours.
He wants to get enough training to minimize the risks.
He feels that a sport pilot rating is much easier to get than a private pilot rating and there is less to learn.
I don’t see that much difference and suggested he go for a private pilot, rotorcraft gyroplane rating.
What say you?
Click to expand...

I don't know if any of the people who have replied actually earned their license initially with a rotorcraft category with gyroplane class rating as either a private pilot or sport pilot. It is not very common to go that route initially. I think most (including myself) who learned in fixed wing or even helicopters do not have the background to give a proper answer as to sport vs. private when it comes to gyroplanes.

I note, for example, that stall recovery instruction is not applicable, nor are hovering maneuvers - two sets of tasks that fixed wing and helicopter pilots allegedly tend to take a bit of extra angst or time to learn. On the other hand, my understanding is that prior airplane experience might tend to cause a gyroplane pilot to incorrectly "unload" the rotors with fatal results. This would be something that would cause airplane pilots to require more training hours to "unlearn" which would skew the observation of those who first earned their license in fixed wing.
 
Thing is just about all the gyroplanes in existence are LSA legal. Except for some wacky old stuff it is little two seaters. And there ain't a bunch to rent when you go on vacation. The pp does nothing for this guy.
 
mcmanigle said:
Looks like you're right. There is a night training exemption specifically for gyrocraft, powered parachute, and weight-shift control which allows for an indefinite, by-choice "Night flying prohibited" restriction. Few of us know about it because it's not applicable to airplanes, and you read the regs closest.
Click to expand...
Ahh I missed where he wanted to fly gyroplanes and only gyroplanes. I thought he was after airplanes and gyroplanes
 
ClimbnSink said:
Thing is just about all the gyroplanes in existence are LSA legal. Except for some wacky old stuff it is little two seaters. And there ain't a bunch to rent when you go on vacation. The pp does nothing for this guy.
Click to expand...

And how many gyroplanes are even equipped for night flying? Might be difficult to complete the night requirements for PP. Yet another reason to stick with sport pilot.
 
My friend wants to fly a gyroplane and at this time it would be difficult of rent a gyroplane.
His license would read either private pilot, rotorcraft-gyroplane or sport pilot rotorcraft gyroplane.
We have had a lively conversation without resolution.
I have two gyroplanes I fly, both are night legal.
Only one is sport pilot legal.
I am a commercial pilot, rotorcraft- gyroplane.
Thank you all for your help.
 

Attachments

  • 9.jpg
    9.jpg
    501.9 KB · Views: 8
  • SMX AS 406.jpg
    SMX AS 406.jpg
    67.7 KB · Views: 8
Last edited:
Vance Breese said:
Thank you for your thoughtful answer Ron.
My confusion about FAR 61.110[(c) A person who does not meet the night flying requirements in §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2) may be issued a private pilot certificate with the limitation "Night flying prohibited." This limitation may be removed by an examiner if the holder complies with the requirements of §61.109 (d)(2), (i)(2), or (j)(2), as
appropriate.]
I don’t see any reference to Alaska or one year.
What am I missing?
Click to expand...
Nothing. What I was missing is that your pal is looking or a gyroplane rating, not airplane, and for the gyroplane class (as well as the powered-parachute and weight-shift-control categories), 61.110(c) does authorize issuance of a PP ticket with "no night" limitation if the applicant doesn't meet the night training requirements.
 
Thank you Ron.
I hope to understand the FARs someday.
The FARs continue to be a sleep aid for me.
When I become an instructor I will need to learn how to help my students look things up.
When I was taking the oral part of the practical test for commercial I looked everything up.
I suspect the designated examiner expected me to remember more.
I am grateful for your help with interpreting the FARs.
This friend and his wife are potential students and encouraging me to move forward with all possible speed.
This question is particularly important to me because it has been suggested that I become a sport pilot instructor (CFIS).
My feeling at this time is there is value in being a CFI rather than a CFIS.
This thread has helped to reinforce that opinion.
I still don’t know what to advise my friend and his wife.
I just don’t see that much difference between the two given what they want to do with the rating and the work involved.
Thank you all!
 
Vance Breese said:
Thank you Ron.
I hope to understand the FARs someday.
The FARs continue to be a sleep aid for me.
Click to expand...
Could be worse -- for some they're headache-inducers.

When I become an instructor I will need to learn how to help my students look things up.
Click to expand...
Better yet, learn how to teach them how to look things up themselves.
When I was taking the oral part of the practical test for commercial I looked everything up. I
Click to expand...
suspect the designated examiner expected me to remember more.
Click to expand...
I suspect otherwise. Most of this stuff does not need to be memorized as you'll have plenty of time to look it up. What they do expect is that you know where to look it up and can locate it with reasonable dispatch.

I am grateful for your help with interpreting the FARs.
Click to expand...
Happy to help.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Duuuude read. Guy wants to fly a gyroplane, there is nothing about SP that will hold him back in a gyroplane unless he steals a big old one from a museum.:lol:
Click to expand...

Yeah good point! Well then consider my response more of a general statement.

Ooppps. :)
 
Took the writtens for CFIs, but after looking at the flying required for the flight test,was not worth the expense,,with the limited sport pilot base.
 
jspilot said:
Yeah good point! Well then consider my response more of a general statement.

Ooppps. :)
Click to expand...

I'm a Sport Pilot, not interested in flying; at night, in IMC, did do instruments on my training in case of accidental IMC. Not interested in mixing it up with airliners in class B and C airports, endorsed for class D, fly an FD CTLS, not interested in more than one passenger. Not interested in flying to Mexico or Canada. Can fly cross country anywhere in the US. Do not need a 3rd class Medical. What is not to like about flying like this ?

Cheers
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top