Spin Training urp

jmaynard

jmaynard

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Jay Maynard
I went up to Mankato today to do my spin endorsement. I didn't finish it.

First, the instructor and I spent a little bit of time discussing what spins are, how airplanes get into them, how pilots get airplanes out of them, and how to avoid them in the first place. While we were talking, I got to meet the local DPE that does all of the CFI-SP checkrides. She confirmed my thinking about what goes into the checkride, and said that an initial CFI checkride was indeed the most intense that a pilot takes. She also agreed with my thought that the entire key was in preparation.

North Star Aviation has a pair of nice pretty Diamond DA20-C1 trainers, and we settled into N204MK for the ride. I had no trouble with it at all for taxi, takeoff, and climbout. We got up to 5000 AGL over some farmland northwest of Mankato, and I did some turns and stalls to get the feel of the airplane. Nice airplane, too. Theirs had the same radio stack I have in my Zodiac, which made life a little simpler.

We'd agreed beforehand that, after I was comfortable with stalling the airplane, the instructor would demonstrate a spin and recovery, and then I'd do a couple. He did. The airplane snapped over to the left as soon as he stomped on the rudder. Man, that wound up fast! We made three turns (I think; I wasn't noticing more than the world turning in front of the windscreen, fast), and then he recovered. I was kinda iffy during the spin, but the positive Gs on the pullout did me in. We'd discussed the possibility before we left, and, as agreed, I said "Okkay, time to head back in" - and we did. I never actually lost it, but it was damned close.

We got back in and talked for a while, discussing airsickness and how I could overcome it, and what we'd do next time to minimize the problem. I think the key will be that I'll do it, now that I've seen it and know what to expect. The examiner walked by, and suggested, also, that I read up on spins and reassure myself that they're a perfectly safe maneuver; I know that intellectually, but seeing one like that for the first time was a shock. I've seen a spin once before, and did get airsick that time as well - and that was in a 172, and I don't remember it going around anywhere near that fast.

Anyone have other suggestions? I've got to conquer this problem if I want to become a CFI, and I need to get comfortable with it anyway if I'm going to be a better pilot.
 
Re: Spin training *urp*

Jay,
I did my spin training and became a member of the "Blue Bag Club" myself. At 5000' in a decathlon, the world just ain't supposed to rotate around like that!
I did end up building up a tolerance to "unusual attitudes" later, but I still got a little "urp-ey" non the less....
--Matt Rogers
 
jay just curious in this cold Wx did you have the cabin heat on? That can make ya a bit queasy.
 
I'd tell your instructor he was an idiot for doing 3 turns your first time out...
 
AdamZ said:
jay just curious in this cold Wx did you have the cabin heat on? That can make ya a bit queasy.
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We did, and I had my heavy coat on as well even though it was probably too much by a bit. One or the other was probably unneeded.
 
I'd also look into what you ate beforehand (well...maybe I should rephrase that:smilewinkgrin:)...I went on a sailing trip once, and they recommended "doughy" foods. They actually fed us pizza on board to help prevent/alleviate seasickness. You can probably find some suggestions online somewhere.

Those motion sickness wristbands seem to work, too...I've had more than a few people claim a big difference in their ability to handle turbulence or maneuvering.

Good luck!

David
 
Jay,

I went for a couple of extended spin sessions -- and the first time caused some queasiness.

The second time out, I knew what to expect and was doing recoveries on heaidngs after x number of turns.

It becomes rather routine and your tummy will settle.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I'd also look into what you ate beforehand (well...maybe I should rephrase that:smilewinkgrin:)...I went on a sailing trip once, and they recommended "doughy" foods. They actually fed us pizza on board to help prevent/alleviate seasickness. You can probably find some suggestions online somewhere.
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I didn't eat any lunch, actually, on purpose; breakfast was a breakfast burrito. The flight was about 1:30. I hadn't heard that, but it makes sense. My roommate eats crystallized ginger when he flies with me and it gets bumpy, and says that works for him, but I've never tried it.

Those motion sickness wristbands seem to work, too...I've had more than a few people claim a big difference in their ability to handle turbulence or maneuvering.
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I know that Dramamine is not recommended for pilots (and the one time I took it, it didn't seem to help much, as those who saw that Jimmy Kimmel Live! episode with me on the Zero-G flight will attest), but I haven't tried the wristbands. Are they recommended (or not) for pilot use?
 
I'm about to finish my checkout in the Diamond this weekend at Wings. This will be my third flight in one, and they are a blast. No spins allowed at the flight school though.

How does the DA-20 compare to your Zodiac?
 
I've heard that ginger works. YOu could try the tea also if you don't like candy. Also there's a lot to be said for acclimatization. Something that worked for me when learning acro is to tighten your stomach muscles and brace before a maneuver so you are not flopping around.
 
I've got the same thing to do, Jay, and am apprehensive about it. I HATE the negative G effects of roller coasters, and have been wondering how I'll do on spins. That said, I've been in the back for helicopter autos a bunch of times, and in big waves in very small boats and been ok.

I've been told that being in control makes a big difference too, when it's you that starts the spin.

For my first time, I'll bring a big bag.
 
You've been through the worst of it now. I'd bet next time you won't have any problem at all.


Trapper John
 
TMetzinger said:
I've got the same thing to do, Jay, and am apprehensive about it. I HATE the negative G effects of roller coasters, and have been wondering how I'll do on spins.
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Actually, we never went negative...but the positive G pullout (I'm guessing 2 G, max) was definitely there. I've gotten to where I can handle steep turns, so it may well be an acclimatization thing.

I've been told that being in control makes a big difference too, when it's you that starts the spin.
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Start and recover, both. The start was a real surprise, but the recovery was the gotcha.

For my first time, I'll bring a big bag.
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I've got several in my flight bag: my roommate had the row to himself on a couple of flights a week or so ago, so he grabbed the airsickness bags. :)
 
jmaynard said:
Start and recover, both. The start was a real surprise, but the recovery was the gotcha.
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For most folks positive Gs (and in typical spin pullout you may feel 3) are the thing.

It may actually be better for you to enter and recover from the spin -- even with some instructor "guidance."

The act of controlling will help you concentrate on the task, and not the bubblies.
 
Rob Schaffer said:
How does the DA-20 compare to your Zodiac?
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The DA-20 feels a lot like the Zodiac to sit in and fly: the seating position is just about the same (though the Zodiac doesn't have the adjustable rudder pedals), and the stick is right in the same place. The Diamond isn't quite as nice to see out of, but it's still head and shoulders above a Cherokee or 172.

Flying qualities are about the same, though the elevator's not as sensitive as the Zodiac and the ailerons aren't as heavy. I had the feel of the airplane right away.

The fuel injected engine was a surprise, and seemed to be as cranky as most other fuel injected engines to deal with. Still, it started right up for us on a 32 F day.

I'd have no trouble renting one for general flying.
 
One step at a time, Jay. The great thing is that you did it and you're willing to do it again.

The da-20 does snap into a spin pretty nicely and the great view really makes it evident that you are entering a new area of the flight envelope. With some additional practice you will discover that the actual rate of rotation is slower than many spin approved airplanes (the c150 is faster). The view is cool in the twenty is cool though, a whole lot of windscreen to fill with ground.
 
I''ll suggest the non-drowsy dramamine may work for you. I've ridden crew boats out of Galveston using the stuff and it worked for me as advertised. As a side note, for me an empty stomach is worse than a full stomach. Dunno why but that's the way it is.

On a neener-neener-neener note, I've done spins in a Citabria with no upset. I didn't like riding through the manuver just 'cause the seat was uncomfortable but there was no motion sickness. I know the instructor really didn't like riding through it when I was driving. Maybe someday I'll learn to depart the aircraft smooooothly. (I somehow doubt it)

Ok, I know that didn't help but I'm thinking you'll work through the visualization and tackle it next time without a hitch. Keep lots of fresh air in your face and enjoy the ride...and if ya just gotta share your lunch with the instructor, try not to blow it on the windscreen...or the radios.:rofl:
 
Jay,

Now that you know what to expect, the next time will be much easier.

It's also good that you called it quits - Every time you can go up and come back down without losing your lunch, the better you'll be.

Don't *worry* too much about it either. :no:

Finally, you know what they say... Eat bananas. They taste about the same coming back up. ;) :rofl:
 
Clark1961 said:
Ok, I know that didn't help but I'm thinking you'll work through the visualization and tackle it next time without a hitch. Keep lots of fresh air in your face and enjoy the ride...and if ya just gotta share your lunch with the instructor, try not to blow it on the windscreen...or the radios.:rofl:
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Heh. I'm not about to mess up that $27K (well, $25K, they've got a GTX 327 instead of my GTX 330) stack if I can help it at all. :)
 
Fresh air.
Carbohydrates like plain bagels and bread.
Flat Coke (basically more empty calories and Carbs).
Ginger.
Wrist bands that have a "rock" in them to push on a nerve in your wrist.
The wristwatch that shocks your wrist. (http://www.aeromedix.com/product-ex...nd_Electronic_Band_For_Motion_Sickness_Relief)
Non-drowsy Dramamine.
Piloting Technique.

These are the things I tried top to bottom from what didn't work to what did work. I bought one of the nerve shocking watches and that worked quite well for about three hours or so, then my puke reflex took over. It was hot and bumpy and we were doing stupidly steep turns.

As an aside, Aeromedix was most happy to refund all my money when the Reliefband had to be returned....

--Matt Rogers
 
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Jay, I've got one of those electric wristbands and they do help. You're welcome to borrow it anytime. I think that ginger snaps might help also, and it's definitely true that you should have something in your stomach when doing acrobatics. I also agree that you'd likely do better if the first few spins are just incipient with the first about half a turn, the second about one turn, and increasing from there as you begin to feel more comfortable. I believe that it will also help if you make the recovering pullout as promptly as possible. Every second you delay in establishing the correct pitch once the yaw stops increases your downward energy and required pullup force/time. Most folks can tolerate a brief bout of high g much better than a bit less force over a longer period. Of course you do want to avoid a secondary stall or overstress in the recovery but IME folks tend to let the speed build more than necessary and pull out at only a couple g, both of which extends the exposure to high force.
 
lancefisher said:
Jay, I've got one of those electric wristbands and they do help. You're welcome to borrow it anytime.
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I think I'll take you up on that...just need to catch up with you. I'll be making an ARF flight to the Cities (the current plan is KLSE-KCFE, though that might change) Saturday afternoon...will you be around?

I also agree that you'd likely do better if the first few spins are just incipient with the first about half a turn, the second about one turn, and increasing from there as you begin to feel more comfortable. I believe that it will also help if you make the recovering pullout as promptly as possible.
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Yeah, I'm thinking this is the right way to go about it...especially since I've seen one now, and know what to expect. I might even make the first recovery as soon as the aircraft finishes going over the top.
 
Jay -

here in New Mexico, when I was doing my primary training, I got sick on almost every summer flight because of turbulence and whatnot. The seaband wrist thingies killed it for me, and I was fine, and eventually got to the point where I don't need 'em anymore.

They're fairly cheap, I got mine at Walgreens, and seriously, they worked great. Might have been psychosomatic, but all I know is it worked.

Also, I think Dramamine is a not only "not recommended" but also "illegal" for pilot use.
 
jmaynard said:
I think I'll take you up on that...just need to catch up with you. I'll be making an ARF flight to the Cities (the current plan is KLSE-KCFE, though that might change) Saturday afternoon...will you be around?


Yeah, I'm thinking this is the right way to go about it...especially since I've seen one now, and know what to expect. I might even make the first recovery as soon as the aircraft finishes going over the top.
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I'm not sure what I'm doing Saturday but there's a good chance I'll be out at the airport. If the wx is any good and the temp is at or above 32F I'd like to get the taildragger out for the first time in a couple months.

Give my cellphone a call: Six wun to ate six sevn for wun oh to
 
Is the DA-20 the only option there? It's not the best at allowing air into the cabin. You definitely want a lot of air flow through the cabin, even if a bit chilly.

You mentioned a G load of something like "3" during recovery. I hope you're not pulling that much. It shouldn't be that difficult of a recovery unless you're up against the ground. Obviously, you won't be during practice.
 
KennyFlys said:
Is the DA-20 the only option there? It's not the best at allowing air into the cabin. You definitely want a lot of air flow through the cabin, even if a bit chilly.
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Yes, it's the only option around here. OTOH, I didn't hav any trouble getting the eyeball vent on my side to blow all the air I wanted on me.

You mentioned a G load of something like "3" during recovery. I hope you're not pulling that much. It shouldn't be that difficult of a recovery unless you're up against the ground. Obviously, you won't be during practice.
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Looks like I'll find out. There's a free iPhone application, GeeMeter, that not only shows the state of the internal accelerometer, but also records high and low peaks. I'll have it along on the next flight, and we'll see just how much G gets pulled.
 
Jay,

I did a bunch of spin training and some basic acro training last fall. This is what worked for me.

1) Crystallized Ginger really does help. Eat a few chunks at least 30 minutes before flight.

2) Don't go on an empty stomach/don't eat greasy foods.

3) Go into the spin on a heading, and start counting rotations by 0.5's out loud. "Half, one, 1 and a half, recover.... out on two". On the pullout, try clenching your stomach muscles.

4) 3 spins for your first time? I dunno about that one, seems excessive. If you start with cross control stalls, then go into 1 turn incipient spins, then progress - with YOU on the controls, it keeps your head in the game better than just going for roller coaster ride.

5) Bring a couple 1 gallon ziplocs. Seriously. I did, and I almost had to use them a few times.

Lastly, keep at it. You will build tolerance to it with time. Quit while you are still in the game, and come back for more. It will become fun after awhile.

Regards,

Tim
 
My experience is that physiological spin resistance is developed the same way muscles are -- regular repetitions.
 
You will eventually get used to it. I am kind of surprised that the instructor had you going into 3 full rotations of a spin on your first outing though.

When I was a full time instructor there were very few training operations that were allowed to intentionally spin airplanes. Due to insurance issues and expense. The aero club I worked for was authorized to do spins, so I did quite a lot of spin training and endorsements for regular pilots and people working on the CFI's.

I found that each pilot reacted slightly different to the G forces. My suggestion would be to break up your training over more training sessions. The amount of sessions being based purely on your comfort level. Also your book knowledge will help reinforce your practical application to eventually get you more and more comfortable as time goes by.

Just remember that your body may not be quite used to feeling the forces that you are now putting on it. Its one thing if your a 18 punk kid that doesn't know much about anything. They have no fear because they have no real knowledge. But, with age comes wisdom, and you do know and have an understanding of what can potentially hurt you. So just take your time with it at your comfort level not the CFI's. Just be vocal about your needs.
 
KennyFlys said:
Is the DA-20 the only option there? It's not the best at allowing air into the cabin. You definitely want a lot of air flow through the cabin, even if a bit chilly.
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I don't get the above comment. Once airborne, the DA-20 has better airflow than any other airplane I've flown. Way better than any Cessna or Piper.

You can damn near blow your sun glasses off if you point the vents correctly.
 
Ron Levy said:
My experience is that physiological spin resistance is developed the same way muscles are -- regular repetitions.
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Ron's got it exactly right. The first thing to realize is that motion sickness happens between your ears, not in your tummy. It results from your brain having difficulty processing what it's "seeing" vs. what it's "feeling" and exacerbated by plenty of normal anxiety. The other thing to know is that everyone has some level of base tolerance, good or bad, and having a low tolerance has nothing to do with having "the right stuff." Some of the best aerobatic champions started out puking every time they got out of the plane. I personally have a somewhat low tolerance and if I take several weeks off if aerobatic practice, I have to build both my G and tummy tolerance back up through several flights.

Things like the relief band work to the extent that you're thinking about your wrist getting shocked instead of the world going around. I wouldn't personally give them any more credence than that. I tried one early on and it seemed to work well the first time, not so well the next time, and not at all after that. My theory is that I just got used to my wrist being shocked so it was no longer a distraction.

Next, I watched a Mythbusters episode in which they "proved" that ginger improved their tolerance to motion sickness. I haven't tried it myself because it's more my style to just keep at it until it goes away. I have no problem believing it could help but I'm pretty sure it won't help as much as just getting back on the horse.

Finally, having an empty stomach is probably as bad as being stuffed with chili or some such. Eat a normal, light meal so that your tummy isn't on your mind. There's an old joke around that you should eat bananas before you do acro. They don't help but they taste the same coming up as they did going down.

Good luck and just stay with it.
 
PittsDriver said:
Some of the best aerobatic champions started out puking every time they got out of the plane.
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Per Bob Hoovers autobiography, he taught himself aerobatics because he really wanted to fly and was having problems with air sickness...
In time, he got over it.

Personally, I find that I sure can't do what I used to since I am so infrequently exposed anymore.

And, to be clear, I am not recommending that anyone learn themselves aerobatics. Yea, Bob Hoover did, but he's Bob Hoover - you and I ain't.
 
PittsDriver said:
Ron's got it exactly right. The first thing to realize is that motion sickness happens between your ears, not in your tummy. It results from your brain having difficulty processing what it's "seeing" vs. what it's "feeling" and exacerbated by plenty of normal anxiety.
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That's definitely part of it, but there's a physical part to it as well, especially when g's are pulled (or pushed).

The other thing to know is that everyone has some level of base tolerance, good or bad, and having a low tolerance has nothing to do with having "the right stuff." Some of the best aerobatic champions started out puking every time they got out of the plane. I personally have a somewhat low tolerance and if I take several weeks off if aerobatic practice, I have to build both my G and tummy tolerance back up through several flights.

Things like the relief band work to the extent that you're thinking about your wrist getting shocked instead of the world going around. I wouldn't personally give them any more credence than that.
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There's likely more to it than a distraction. The thing was originally developed and sold as a means to minimize the nausea associated with chemotherapy, something that doesn't involve motion or any disagreement between visual and kinesthetic perceptions.

I tried one early on and it seemed to work well the first time, not so well the next time, and not at all after that. My theory is that I just got used to my wrist being shocked so it was no longer a distraction.
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It could certainly be that you can build up a tolerance to the stimulation, but I'm wondering if you're certain you were using it correctly. You're not supposed to feel the "shocks" in your wrist, the feeling should be in your fingers and palm, is that the way you actually felt it? In my case I've found that it works well sometimes and not so well other times likely depending on my condition at the time. With or without the stimulation there are times when I can tolerate a lot more than others.

Next, I watched a Mythbusters episode in which they "proved" that ginger improved their tolerance to motion sickness. I haven't tried it myself because it's more my style to just keep at it until it goes away. I have no problem believing it could help but I'm pretty sure it won't help as much as just getting back on the horse.
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Any viable "remedy" is going to be a benefit to someone who just wants to get through spin training without getting sick. If the intent is to get seriously involved with acro, continued exposure is the right answer.
 
lancefisher said:
Any viable "remedy" is going to be a benefit to someone who just wants to get through spin training without getting sick. If the intent is to get seriously involved with acro, continued exposure is the right answer.
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Exactly. I've got no interest in aerobatics, but I want to be confident entering and recovering from spins. I figure that even a remedy that works for a couple of hours total will get me to that point.
 
jmaynard said:
Exactly. I've got no interest in aerobatics, but I want to be confident entering and recovering from spins. I figure that even a remedy that works for a couple of hours total will get me to that point.
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Jay,

Sorry. You can't be confident entering and recovering from spins if all you do is go through a few spins with a CFII who has only gone through a few spins with his/her CFII.

If you want to understand spins, how they occur in real life and how to recover from them, then find a good aerobatic pilot who teaches spins. What 99% of our CFI's know about spins doesn't begin to cover how they actually develop, how they are accelerated, or how to recover from them. The FAA's spin training requirements for CFI's is, in the most simple terms, a joke.

Learning to enter a spin by hauling back on the yoke and stomping on a rudder falls way, way short of understanding how your student will likely enter a spin. Do yourself a favor and go to an aerobatic pilot who can explain and demonstrate how it really happens, and can show you how to recover when it does.
 
gibbons said:
If you want to understand spins, how they occur in real life and how to recover from them, then find a good aerobatic pilot who teaches spins. What 99% of our CFI's know about spins doesn't begin to cover how they actually develop, how they are accelerated, or how to recover from them. The FAA's spin training requirements for CFI's is, in the most simple terms, a joke.
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And for that, Rich Stowell is DA MAN!!!
 
If you're not up for a trip west, Larry Long here in the Pittsburgh area is a great option.

Larry has a Decathalon, 10k plus hours, and is a great instructor.

I flew with him and asked him to show me every way a student might try to kill me.

He did.

PM me for contact info.

I've heard good things from a fellow CFI who went to Catherine (?), who took over Bill Kershner's flight school.
 
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