Sound effects editor on a film has questions

[FilterDecay]

Hello!

First off thank you for taking the time to read through this post. I just have a few questions as I begin to edit this scene of a movie.

Let me just say that i realize that as someone with no expertise on planes given the responsibility to make it sound correct in a certain scenario can be daunting. My first responsibility to the film is excitement! This may defy what is "real" at all times (as Im sure most of you have heard at some point in film)

So in this scene a Cessna with 2 people on board has the engine stall out in flight. The camera perspective changes from inside the plan to the outside as the 2 principals fight to keep control of the craft and land it in a field.

My initial questions are

1. If the plane engine is off do the pilots still have control over the yoke and rudder pedals?

2. Would these components make a electric servo sound as they move even with the engine off?


Thank you!

p.s. If you have anything else that maybe useful for me that you wuld like to add it would be much appreciated

 

[airbornejohnny]

Hello!

First off thank you for taking the time to read through this post. I just have a few questions as I begin to edit this scene of a movie.

Let me just say that i realize that as someone with no expertise on planes given the responsibility to make it sound correct in a certain scenario can be daunting. My first responsibility to the film is excitement! This may defy what is "real" at all times (as Im sure most of you have heard at some point in film)

So in this scene a Cessna with 2 people on board has the engine stall out in flight. The camera perspective changes from inside the plan to the outside as the 2 principals fight to keep control of the craft and land it in a field.

My initial questions are

1. If the plane engine is off do the pilots still have control over the yoke and rudder pedals?

2. Would these components make a electric servo sound as they move even with the engine off?


Thank you!

p.s. If you have anything else that maybe useful for me that you wuld like to add it would be much appreciated

1.) Yes.
2.) Wind would drown it out.

p.s.) Personally experiancing the scenario in a safe and controlled manner would likely best serve your task. I woould suggest going to a local small airfield or a flight school and find a willing pilot/instructor to take you up. It likely will not break the bank (an hour in a small aircraft-COOL) and "accurate" sound effects would be all around you to take in and apply later when you do your actual sound editing. I'd bet if you post roughly where you are someone on this board may be nearby or know of a place to try. Good luck!!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Let me just say that i realize that as someone with no expertise on planes given the responsibility to make it sound correct in a certain scenario can be daunting. My first responsibility to the film is excitement! This may defy what is "real" at all times (as Im sure most of you have heard at some point in film)

We appreciate you trying to get it right.

So in this scene a Cessna with 2 people on board has the engine stall out in flight. The camera perspective changes from inside the plan to the outside as the 2 principals fight to keep control of the craft and land it in a field.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the filmmaker is not getting it right.

1. If the plane engine is off do the pilots still have control over the yoke and rudder pedals?

Yes - There is no change whatsoever. Single-engine Cessnas simply use cable linkages between the controls and the flight surfaces, and the engine operating (or not) has absolutely no effect on the controllability of the airplane... That's why I say that the filmmaker is not getting it right. There's no loss of control - Simply a loss of engine power. Lower the to keep the airspeed up, and the plane keeps on flying.

2. Would these components make a electric servo sound as they move even with the engine off?

Nope - No electric servos in the system at all.

p.s. If you have anything else that maybe useful for me that you wuld like to add it would be much appreciated

Avoid the description of the engine "stalling". When we talk about stalls with airplanes, it's not the engine we're talking about, it's the wing. You see press reports all the time talking about single-engine airplanes' "engines stalling" but they're simply misinterpreting and adding the engine part themselves. Wings stall. Engines fail.

If we can be of further help, please ask! There's some of us who have even talked about doing "realism consulting" to the film industry, since they get things so laughably wrong when it comes to aviation in most cases.

 

[FilterDecay]

1.) Yes.
2.) Wind would drown it out.

p.s.) Personally experiancing the scenario in a safe and controlled manner would likely best serve your task. I woould suggest going to a local small airfield or a flight school and find a willing pilot/instructor to take you up. It likely will not break the bank (an hour in a small aircraft-COOL) and "accurate" sound effects would be all around you to take in and apply later when you do your actual sound editing. I'd bet if you post roughly where you are someone on this board may be nearby or know of a place to try. Good luck!!

Thank you that would be amazing! Unfortunately the producers would not like this budget over run

I am located in Los Angeles, CA if anyone would like to take this flight I would just record those in flight sounds.

 

[FilterDecay]

Avoid the description of the engine "stalling". When we talk about stalls with airplanes, it's not the engine we're talking about, it's the wing. You see press reports all the time talking about single-engine airplanes' "engines stalling" but they're simply misinterpreting and adding the engine part themselves. Wings stall. Engines fail.

I think this must be engine failure then? The prop stops spinning and the engine turns off. This is the effect they want at any rate.

If we can be of further help, please ask! There's some of us who have even talked about doing "realism consulting" to the film industry, since they get things so laughably wrong when it comes to aviation in most cases.

I figured we probably get it horrible wrong most of the time.

I also refer to the Audubon society and we mess up birds all the time! Sometimes you just HAVE to have a red tail hawk scream over a desert shot

In this scene I am going to need to amp up the turbulence shutter sounds as it bounces around in the air.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Thank you that would be amazing! Unfortunately the producers would not like this budget over run

I am located in Los Angeles, CA if anyone would like to take this flight I would just record those in flight sounds.

Joe Areeda... Paging Joe Areeda...

 

[FilterDecay]

Joe Areeda... Paging Joe Areeda...

I wasn't really expecting it but if anyone wanted to take me up I will be able to get you in the special thanks credits of the film

 

[jhausch]

There will be a high probability the Cessna model used will have electric flaps. At some point in the descent, the pilot could elect to add flaps to reduce landing speed. That would be accompanied by an electric motor sound.

If they want to "struggle" to land the plane, they are going to need more than just an engine failure (terrain below notwithstanding).

If you want a stupendous sound of a small airplane engine failure (to be accurate, you'd want your folks in at least a Cessna with controllable pitch prop):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhyEnqudx8M

Here is someone stopping the prop deliberately. You will notice the wind noise is predominate.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYz3F0G_p_M

If the engine fails catastrophically and the prop stops there would be a pretty good metalic/plastic "shudder".

 

[FilterDecay]

There will be a high probability the Cessna model used will have electric flaps. At some point in the descent, the pilot could elect to add flaps to reduce landing speed. That would be accompanied by an electric motor sound.

If they want to "struggle" to land the plane, they are going to need more than just an engine failure (terrain below notwithstanding).

If you want a stupendous sound of a small airplane engine failure (to be accurate, you'd want your folks in at least a Cessna with controllable pitch prop):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhyEnqudx8M

Here is someone stopping the prop deliberately. You will notice the wind noise is predominate.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYz3F0G_p_M

If the engine fails catastrophically and the prop stops there would be a pretty good metalic/plastic "shudder".

Wow the sound in that first video is amazing. Thanks for both of those.

 

[Skip Miller]

We appreciate you trying to get it right.

Yes x2

Nope - No electric servos in the system at all.

Later model Cessnas have electric flap motors. Beyond that, the system is all cables and pulleys, as noted.

-Skip

 

[murphey]

Sound Guy - an Intro flight costs anywhere from $39-59. It's not a real lesson but a teaser to get you interested in spending money for lessons.

 

[murphey]

Hello!

First off thank you for taking the time to read through this post. I just have a few questions as I begin to edit this scene of a movie.

Let me just say that i realize that as someone with no expertise on planes given the responsibility to make it sound correct in a certain scenario can be daunting. My first responsibility to the film is excitement! This may defy what is "real" at all times (as Im sure most of you have heard at some point in film)

So in this scene a Cessna with 2 people on board has the engine stall out in flight. The camera perspective changes from inside the plan to the outside as the 2 principals fight to keep control of the craft and land it in a field.

With reasonably intelligent people on board, and one the pilot, there is absolutely NO "fight to keep control" unless the weather is horrible with extreme turbulence. It's really a no-brainer. The airplane turns into a mediocre glider, you land at the nearest somewhat flat area, pull out your cell phone, call the insurance company, then call for help. Might even be able to call for a pizza, if you can describe where you landed.

Student pilots (and the rest of us) train for this all the time.

About the only sound you'll hear inside the airplane are the two people (we hope) calmly talking about the best place to land. Most likely one will make a call to Air Traffic Control to inform it of an emergency while the other is getting ready to land.

This is not a crisis unless the pilot has been incapacitated (heart attack, etc) but this scenario has been overplayed in film & tv, so it's not interesting anymore.

 

[murphey]

Wow the sound in that first video is amazing. Thanks for both of those.

OK - first understand that the airplane in that video is a high-performance with huge engine. Basically, a monster engine mounted in an aluminum can with wings. It's sole purpose is to go fast and do aerobatics. The only relationship to the Cessna 172 is both have wings and an engine. The engine in the video was probably a 6-cylinder 540 hp. A Cessna 172 has a 4-cylinder engine at either 160 or 180 hp.

Frankly, my 4-cylinder, 175 hp Ford is more comfortable than my 4-cylinder 180 hp airplane. But no one pulls me over for speeding in the airplane.

 

[Dart]

As others have pointed out, the "struggle" is mainly looking out the window looking for a flat spot.

If you really need "struggle" and sound have them hit a flock of birds, on on the prop for the whabang! then...silence, one hits and breaks the windshield for the roaring, whistling wind sounds and one hits a control surface "jamming" it or making it stiff.

All happening at once are ..well, very almost impossible BUT, IT"S A MOVIE!!!

Thanks for coming here and asking!

 

[Skip Miller]

I think this must be engine failure then? The prop stops spinning and the engine turns off. This is the effect they want at any rate.

Here is another point that can be misunderstood. If the engine runs out of fuel or is simply turned off for some reason, the prop will under most circumstances keep spinning. Just like a windmill on that barn over yonder.

You have to intentionally stop the prop by raising the nose and slowing down, almost to the point where the wings stop producing lift (aka an aerodynamic stall) but even then the engine may start to spin again if the nose is lowered and the plane picks up speed. Spinning prop, in this case, is not making power - it is just spinning in the wind. The prop, in this case, is turning the engine.

The prop is more likely to stop when something seriously breaks inside the engine. Like a connecting rod ("con rod") which connects the piston to the crankshaft. If it breaks, the con rod piece connected to the crankshaft flails around inside the engine and may punch a hole in the side of the engine (photo op! Lots of oil released, covers windshield, pilots can't see!) ( film at 11....) and/or jams against something more solid and the prop stops instantly, and can't be rotated again.

Just food for thought....

-Skip

 

[gismo]

Here is another point that can be misunderstood. If the engine runs out of fuel or is simply turned off for some reason, the prop will under most circumstances keep spinning. Just like a windmill on that barn over yonder.

The prop is more likely to stop when something seriously breaks inside the engine. Like a connecting rod ("con rod") which connects the piston to the crankshaft. If it breaks, the con rod piece connected to the crankshaft flails around inside the engine and may punch a hole in the side of the engine (photo op! Lots of oil released, covers windshield, pilots can't see!) ( film at 11....) and/or jams against something more solid and the prop stops instantly, and can't be rotated again.

-Skip

I was think along the same lines as Skip. For more drama than the typical engine failure in a Cessna 172, a "catastrophic" malfunction like Skip described would be both realistic and more "exciting" for those involved.

Two other plausible scenarios would be all or part or the prop separating. If as little as an inch or two comes off one blade the resulting imbalance can cause enough violent shaking that the engine breaks loose from it's mount and ends up hanging by the wires and hoses that connect it to the plane. The same vibration makes it nearly impossible to read the instruments or operate the radio (neither of which will be a major problem but a simulation of this shaking might be fairly dramatic. Something similar happened to friends of mine in an airplane I had flown a lot but in their case the prop was fine but some bogus parts (the bolts that connect the piston's connecting rod to the crankshaft) broke and with some but not all of the pistons unattached to the crank, the vibration was the same as a broken prop. In their case the airplane's ability to glide was also compromised, perhaps due to the fact that the engine cowling was pretty bent but the engine after it broke loose from it's mount.

Losing a prop is even more rare but this did happen to a different friend in his own airplane. In this case the bolts holding the prop onto the engine (there are several) weren't properly tightened when the prop was re-installed after it had been worked on. That landing was reasonably uneventful although the plane was damaged enough to scrap it out.

And that brings up the likely and plausible storyline of almost any engine failure in a light single engine airplane. The first thing that happens when the engine quits is the noise made by the engine gets a little (not a lot) quieter (maybe a 10-20 db reduction). Next is a period of a few to several seconds where the pilot does pretty much nothing because he's not willing to believe that his engine died (kind of a denial thing). Then the pilot overcomes the shock and either get's coolly down to the business at hand or (we're not talking Chuck Yeager here) panics a little (or a lot). Chances are his voice will go up an octave and get louder. If he's anywhere near civilization he'll probably try calling "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday" (internationally recognized request for emergency help) on the radio which may or may not get a response but in either case anyone answering his call isn't going to be able to do more than attempt to identify the plane's location by radar unless the pilot was already in communication with ATC (air traffic control) before the emergency. Once the plane's location is known ATC might provide the pilot with a direction and distance to the nearest airport (which is likely too far away to glide to).

Pilots are trained to do several things in an attempt to restart the engine but such efforts assume the problem is something simple like running a fuel tank dry (most planes have multiple tanks so switching to another tank may solve that problem), accidentally switching off the magnetos (what makes the sparks that ignite the fuel) or carb ice (in humid air ice can form inside a carburetor disrupting the airflow and/or fuel delivery because the air running through the carb's throat expands and drops 30-50 degrees in temperature. So if the engine just quit making power the pilot would check/change the fuel tank selector, check the magneto switch and/or try running on one mag (there are two for redundancy), and apply carburetor heat (runs hot air into the carb). But if there's an obvious mechanical issue (piston sticking out through a hole in the cowling, oil flowing out of the cowling and onto the windshield, missing prop etc. there's not much to do except fly the airplane and find a safe place to land.

An airplane like a 172 can be landed in a parking lot or large backyard without seriously harming the occupants. The airplane may get smashed up but as long as the cabin doesn't hit something solid before the plane slows down the people should be able to crawl out and walk away. A commonly suggested technique is to aim between two stout trees so the wings take the brunt of the impact.

 

[rottydaddy]

It's too bad you're only the sound editor, or maybe you could stop them from shooting the scene as I know they will: engine stops, and suddenly airplane becomes an uncontrollable brick. It plummets out of the sky as the two heroes battle to regain control (whatever you do, don't insert the typical "runaway prop whine" sound there, 'cuz it wouldn't happen with a stopped engine). The plane crashes through trees, a barn, a crowded playground, falls in a river and goes over a waterfall, skids across a highway at rush hour, sending semis full of explosive material jack-knifing this way and that, and comes to rest in front of a go-go bar, where it promptly explodes in a huge fireball, as our heroes walk away in slo-mo, not even looking back at the wreck.

Hero 1: Dang, I need a drink!
Hero 2: Good thing we filed a flight plan!

 

[rottydaddy]

I also refer to the Audubon society and we mess up birds all the time! Sometimes you just HAVE to have a red tail hawk scream over a desert shot

Gawd, I hate that. It's almost as bad as the obligatory "the audience now knows that microphone is 'hot' because it just produced massive feedback". Or when somebody turns the lights on or off in an industrial space, it makes a clang as if Igor the hunchback just hauled down a giant 3-pole knife switch with a 6-foot lever on it. And oh, yeah, each flourescent fixture in turn makes this sound, as they come on or off in sequence.

Sorry... sound engineer rant.

 

[airbornejohnny]

It's too bad you're only the sound editor, or maybe you could stop them from shooting the scene as I know they will: engine stops, and suddenly airplane becomes an uncontrollable brick. It plummets out of the sky as the two heroes battle to regain control (whatever you do, don't insert the typical "runaway prop whine" sound there, 'cuz it wouldn't happen with a stopped engine). The plane crashes through trees, a barn, a crowded playground, falls in a river and goes over a waterfall, skids across a highway at rush hour, sending semis full of explosive material jack-knifing this way and that, and comes to rest in front of a go-go bar, where it promptly explodes in a huge fireball, as our heroes walk away in slo-mo, not even looking back at the wreck.

Hero 1: Dang, I need a drink!
Hero 2: Good thing we filed a flight plan!

Wait...I thought they ditched at a scrap yard and barely managed to exit the aircraft before it was crushed

 

[gismo]

Gawd, I hate that. It's almost as bad as the obligatory "the audience now knows that microphone is 'hot' because it just produced massive feedback". Or when somebody turns the lights on or off in an industrial space, it makes a clang as if Igor the hunchback just hauled down a giant 3-pole knife switch with a 6-foot lever on it. And oh, yeah, each flourescent fixture in turn makes this sound, as they come on or off in sequence.

Sorry... sound engineer rant.

How about a power utility blackout where the lights on tall buildings flick off one floor at a time and progress from one building to the next down the street. Looks cool but has no relation to reality. Then again who ever said that Hollywood had anything to do with reality even though they use that word a lot.

Feeding Hollywood back to itself, I'd apply to "reality" what Inigo Montoya said to Vizzini regarding his use of the word inconceivable: "You keep using that word, I donna think it means what you think it means".

 

[Henning]

Hello!

First off thank you for taking the time to read through this post. I just have a few questions as I begin to edit this scene of a movie.

Let me just say that i realize that as someone with no expertise on planes

given the responsibility to make it sound correct in a certain scenario can be daunting. My first responsibility to the film is excitement! This may defy what is "real" at all times (as Im sure most of you have heard at some point in film)

So in this scene a Cessna with 2 people on board has the engine stall out in flight. The camera perspective changes from inside the plan to the outside as the 2 principals fight to keep control of the craft and land it in a field.

My initial questions are

1. If the plane engine is off do the pilots still have control over the yoke and rudder pedals?

2. Would these components make a electric servo sound as they move even with the engine off?


Thank you!

p.s. If you have anything else that maybe useful for me that you wuld like to add it would be much appreciated

LOL, there are no electro servos, it's all cable-mechanical and there is no "struggle for control", the controllability is exactly the same as with the engine running, the only difference is that you can't maintain altitude without power, but it won't be a "plummeting out of the sky" descent either, just a mild, call it 10 degree pitch down to maintain best glide speed.

If you want to get the sound right, an example is pretty simple. Get in a car with a manual transmission, crest a moderately steep hill in high gear then turn off the key and coast down the hill with the engine still turning. Better yet, go to your local airport and hook up with a flight instructor and go do it for real, that way you will actually know what you're doing. Imagine that, the entertainment industry actually getting something aviation related correct....

 

[Henning]

Thank you that would be amazing! Unfortunately the producers would not like this budget over run

I am located in Los Angeles, CA if anyone would like to take this flight I would just record those in flight sounds.

????? What kind of production are you on where $100 would cause a budget over run? Heck, what kind of professional are you that you can't afford $100 to make sure you get your job right?

 

[TMetzinger]

For the drama sake, you should consider having a catastrophic engine failure (smoke, oil, stopped prop) instead of it "stalling". Then, to add tension to the glide phase, make it over really rugged terrain or water, so the "heroes" have to work hard and quickly to find a safe place to put the airplane down. Don't give them a "good" place, make them pick the best of the "bad" places - perhaps land in the trees.

 

[Ted]

For the drama sake, you should consider having a catastrophic engine failure (smoke, oil, stopped prop) instead of it "stalling". Then, to add tension to the glide phase, make it over really rugged terrain or water, so the "heroes" have to work hard and quickly to find a safe place to put the airplane down. Don't give them a "good" place, make them pick the best of the "bad" places - perhaps land in the trees.

Best idea. Gets it accurate to reality, while still giving the dramatic bits the film guys are looking for.

I like the oil leak idea.

 

[EdFred]

A an oil covered windscreen from a blown prop seal (I've actually had this happen twice in different airplanes) followed by a seized engine would work nicely. The sound isn't going to be there, and probably have to use some music to fill in the dead sound. Hitting a flock of birds (Canada Geese or Sandhill Cranes) could work too. That could cause the most struggle if one wing took A LOT of damage, and it vented all the fuel overboard, you could get the struggle, and the engine stopping with it not being too unrealistic.

 

[Ted]

A an oil covered windscreen followed by a seized engine would work nicely. The sound isn't going to be there, and probably have to use some music to fill in the dead sound. Hitting a flock of birds (Canada Geese or Sandhill Cranes) could work too. That could cause the most struggle if one wing took A LOT of damage, and it vented all the fuel overboard, you could get the struggle, and the engine stopping with it not being too unrealistic.

The large birds are a better idea. Hit a whole bunch in the wing or windshield. That'll result in a struggle.

 

[EdFred]

The large birds are a better idea. Hit a whole bunch in the wing or windshield. That'll result in a struggle.

Especially the one in the cockpit that isn't dead, and flopping around.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Typically you won't notice much difference in sound between engine dead and engine at idle (which is how you do a normal landing) assuming the prop is still turning. The lack of combustion noise will get lost in the wind noise, noise from the prop still turning, etc.

Example where the prop did stop: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEfHW-6SX6U&feature=fvwrel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sHwKGXaszE&feature=related

But you typically have to slow down to make it happen

A sudden change from 75% power to 0% is obvious.

Seeing as I am on old geezer, this leads me to a story from years ago.

Yes, at one time I actually dated girls. And I was taking one to dinner in a Beech Sport - this was her first ride in a small airplane. Like many, she assumed (based on stupid Hollywood stuff) that an engine failure would be dramatic.

At some point, the issue of what happens when the engine quits came up. I offered to pull the power and show her, she vigorously objected. OK. After a while I v.e.r.y s.l.o.w.l.y eased the throttle back all the way and just glided along for a while. Then I asked again if she wanted to see what happens without power.

"NO!"

"Oh. I pulled the power out a few minutes ago. You didn't even notice."

"Really?"

"Yea. Power is at idle right now…" I then pushed the throttle back in. The engine noise got louder.


End of story.

 

[murphey]

Especially the one in the cockpit that isn't dead, and flopping around.

But it's got to be a mechanical bird or else the ASPCA is going to get involved.

Exterior shot - oil, bird goo, etc. There are a number of stunt pilots that can make this look really exciting and not at all dangerous to them.

At this point the entire POA community deserves a thank you at the end of the credits! I'm beginning to think we've got a really good re-write going on here.

 

[FilterDecay]

Thanks everyone. Some more good videos there to watch.

Oh and I think the birds need to be zombie birds and they must attack the pilots when they get inside the cabin. Thats got to be a first

 

[murphey]

Thanks everyone. Some more good videos there to watch.

Oh and I think the birds need to be zombie birds and they must attack the pilots when they get inside the cabin. Thats got to be a first

Mutant zombie birds - must not let them bite me!

Now we have 2 people in the airplane - one is zombie, one is not. Which one is trying to land the airplane? Ah...solution...non-zombie flies over water, jumps out of airplane (you can do that in a C172 - it has 2 doors!) and zombie in airplane crashes in obligatory ball of fire. Now the only question is crash into the ground or the side of a mountain or a building?

 

[EdFred]

Mutant zombie birds - must not let them bite me!

Now we have 2 people in the airplane - one is zombie, one is not. Which one is trying to land the airplane? Ah...solution...non-zombie flies over water, jumps out of airplane (you can do that in a C172 - it has 2 doors!) and zombie in airplane crashes in obligatory ball of fire. Now the only question is crash into the ground or the side of a mountain or a building?

Hmmm, If I am flying with a zombie, do I log it as solo?

 

[murphey]

Hmmm, If I am flying with a zombie, do I log it as solo?

[*spit take*]

 

[TMetzinger]

Hmmm, If I am flying with a zombie, do I log it as solo?

Can a zombie act as a safety pilot? I see a flowchart change coming!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Can a zombie act as a safety pilot?

If a zombie can get a medical, I'm gonna be, like, ****ed.

 

[TMetzinger]

Well maybe you're doing instrument practice in an LSA with a zombie.... could happen.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Thanks everyone. Some more good videos there to watch.

Oh and I think the birds need to be zombie birds and they must attack the pilots when they get inside the cabin. Thats got to be a first

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxpgmltljaU

Lots of intersting sounds in this one.

 

[airbornejohnny]

Especially the one in the cockpit that isn't dead, and flopping around.

....yelling AAAAAAFFFLLLAAAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!!! the whole way down

 

[SCCutler]

Naw, no one would believe for a second that the zombie's in the plane - everyone knows they're all at the big airports, screening pax for the TSA.

 

[rottydaddy]

The large birds are a better idea. Hit a whole bunch in the wing or windshield. That'll result in a struggle.

It's been done.. replete with PIC freaking out and completely losing control, while screaming "f**k!" over and over...