Soooo ... PA-32?

Frogs97

Frogs97

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Frogs97
Now that I've got my ticket, and even the son that has no interest in being a pilot is saying "when are we getting our plane?", I've turned my eyes on the best option for our family. Ok, honestly, I've been doing that all along. But I feel okay admitting that out loud now!

I'm 6'1" and go 250lbs right now. I need to get down, but only about 30lbs or so, and have some wide shoulders. My 11yo is 5'1" and 110lbs, already. My wife is certainly more petite, and my 9yo son hasn't hit his big growth spurt yet. But, if I project this out a few years, a trip for the 4 of us, bags and full fuel looks okay for either the PA-32, A36, or C206 (400 up front, 250 between the middle and back, 50lbs bags). But, if we wanted to take my mother in law, another FAA std person, or even our 2 golden retrievers, it seems we get up over gross very quickly for the 206 and A36. We also get WAY out of CG for the A36 and have to dump so much fuel that the trip would take forever.

Does that sound right? I got in this to fly with my family, whether it's 800nm trips or short hops around the state. Should I just focus my attention on the Cherokee 6/Lance/Toga line? I sure like that wide cabin. I would love a twin, and I know my instructor would love me to get my MEL, but I'm not sure I need that right out of the box. Seems like the 6 place birds are a big jump, as it is.
 
You can't go wrong with the pa 32s. Doesn't have the CG problem of the A36. Not as pricey either.
 
Take a look at both the 206/210 and the PA32. Also search around for a downloadable W&B calculator for both and play around with some typical loads.

PA32 will haul more and is a little roomier, but the CG envelope is much more forgiving in the 206/210.

At your weight, you may have to get creative with loading in order to stay inside the CG envelope of a PA32 at heavy weights.
 
I'm a big fan of the PA-32, and there are two that I fly and teach in somewhat regularly (they are turbo, fixed-gear models, but as far as cabin size are the same)

You just have to know what you're getting into.

They're not the fastest airplanes.
They do burn some fuel.

But they are definitely nice and wide and comfy compared to what you're probably used to (PA-28s or 172s/etc.)

On a recent flight I took with an owner and his wife, we were up front while she sat in the last row (club seating). She propped her feet up on the center-row seats and read a book. Then later she fell asleep. Looked pretty comfy to me.

It's nice not rubbing shoulders with passengers. And they're easy to fly.

Make sure you sit in one first, front and back to see what it's like. The rear seats especially are a little short on headroom.

If you're ever up here in OKC, let me know and maybe we can go fly!
 
I can send you a great excel W&B sheet that I use for my PA32R. It would at least allow you to plug in weights for a PA32 aircraft so you can see exactly how much you can cram in the dang thing and still go places. She is a real pleasure to fly, although a slight jump from the C172 that I had before. I have time in several higher performance aircraft though, so it was a logical transition.
 
Just started my HP and complex training in a pa32r-301. Jumping up from a Warrior it is a lot of plane initially, but it is still fun. It may be a bit slow, but it is very utilitarian, comfortable, and forgiving to fly.
 
Saratoga II TC is what I'd have :drool: but my TR182 will fit my family for many more years.

What about a C210?
 
i was in a club with a Six.
great plane. Super comfortable if not fleet of foot.
Wife loved it and hates small planes.
also fantastic for angel flight etc due to the rear door and roomy cabin.
Have a POH in a binder with tabs and page protectors collecting dust in a drawer. you are welcome to it, if you would like to do a deep dive into the type. pm address and i will send.
 
I'm a fan. Came from Cessnas, and am very happy with my Lance. It's roomy, practically carries pianos, and pretty easy to fly.

The big complaint I heard about 210/206's is that they are maintenance hogs, and their gear is poorly designed.
 
I have a PA 32r-301 "Saratoga". We are a family of 4. Kids are 13 and 10. I have zero complaints. It's easy to load and will haul almost anything we can fit in the door. I have also done weekend trips with 6 adults without any problem as long as everyone keeps baggage light. Most of my trips are under 2 or 3 hours so we rarely ever fill the tanks. I usually flight plan for 155kts.

We looked at the A36, but with all 6 seats in there is very little room for bags even if you can keep the WB in check.

I have no experience with the 206 or 210.

If you can swing it I would suggest retract and the Saratoga version. The standard "6" is slow for the fuel you will burn.

I have had no issues with gear in 4 years that I have owned the plane.
 
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Y'all be careful about newer (say, post 1990's) PA32's and BE36's -- their empty weights are a lot higher, and their payloads equally smaller. I was in a 2003 BE36 a few years ago, and with full fuel (only about 4-1/2 hours worth), the payload was only about 550 lb. Pretty much the same for a 2006 PA32. Ones from the 60's and 70's tend to have a whole lot more useful load. Make sure you read the actual W&B docs on the plane in which you are interested, and run a few sample load problems.
 
I've always wondered why manufacturers chose to give up useful load in the later years... What do they get in return? A slightly plusher cabin?

Are they assuming their customers are going to overload them, so they're not so picky about useful load? Encouraging people to buy "used" instead of new by handicapping the new models does not seem logical.
 
dans2992 said:
I've always wondered why manufacturers chose to give up useful load in the later years... What do they get in return? A slightly plusher cabin?
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A lot plusher cabin, additional soundproofing (which is a lot heavier than you might think), a lot more standard equipment, etc.
Are they assuming their customers are going to overload them, so they're not so picky about useful load?
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They're not assuming anything -- they sell you the plane with the POH including the W&B data, and after that, it's caveat emptor.

Encouraging people to buy "used" instead of new by handicapping the new models does not seem logical.
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What's logical is making the plane's comfort and accommodations comparable to a Lexus or a Cadillac rather than a Yugo or Lada -- they know very well who's buying their new planes, and it ain't the folks driving a car which sells for $12K new today. When those folks spend half a mil on a new plane, they want the same comfort and features they have on the 7-series Beemer or Lincoln MK they drive to the airport to go fly that new plane. To get the same loads they used to get in a lot skimpier 6-seat single, they'd have to go today to a piston twin or turboprop single, in which most of those folks aren't going to attain/maintain the necessary proficiency. And 95% of the time, those sorts of folks are only carrying two people and bags, anyway.
 
Frogs97 said:
Now that I've got my ticket, and even the son that has no interest in being a pilot is saying "when are we getting our plane?", I've turned my eyes on the best option for our family. Ok, honestly, I've been doing that all along. But I feel okay admitting that out loud now!

I'm 6'1" and go 250lbs right now. I need to get down, but only about 30lbs or so, and have some wide shoulders. My 11yo is 5'1" and 110lbs, already. My wife is certainly more petite, and my 9yo son hasn't hit his big growth spurt yet. But, if I project this out a few years, a trip for the 4 of us, bags and full fuel looks okay for either the PA-32, A36, or C206 (400 up front, 250 between the middle and back, 50lbs bags). But, if we wanted to take my mother in law, another FAA std person, or even our 2 golden retrievers, it seems we get up over gross very quickly for the 206 and A36. We also get WAY out of CG for the A36 and have to dump so much fuel that the trip would take forever.

Does that sound right? I got in this to fly with my family, whether it's 800nm trips or short hops around the state. Should I just focus my attention on the Cherokee 6/Lance/Toga line? I sure like that wide cabin. I would love a twin, and I know my instructor would love me to get my MEL, but I'm not sure I need that right out of the box. Seems like the 6 place birds are a big jump, as it is.
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CONGRATS on getting your ticket!!!
A fixed gear Six or a straight tail Lance would be the best plane for you. They haul more than the newer model Saratoga’s. Lots of room.
 
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The Saratoga SP I am learning in is an 82, with factory AC (I know that is rare and heavy). I have seen the weight and balance docs and the useful load is 1299 lbs. In the later models it is very common for the useful load to be about 1150 lbs. From what I have read simply going from cloth to leather seats increased the weight of the plane by around 25 lbs. And yes, the soundproofing, interior folding desk, better cabin lighting, other passenger luxuries, and much fancier molding account for most of the rest.
 
IO550ed U206 with extensions and VGs is a excellent aircraft.

If you need more speed a 550ed 210.
 
For freighting a U206 is great. For a family wagon? I'd rather have a P206 or 210 to get better people doors. I have no idea what the Piper option has for doors but it would be an important factor in any decision I made.
 
ahkahn said:
I'm a fan. Came from Cessnas, and am very happy with my Lance. It's roomy, practically carries pianos, and pretty easy to fly.
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They do.

PA-32-301_piano.jpg
 
Stewartb said:
For freighting a U206 is great. For a family wagon? I'd rather have a P206 or 210 to get better people doors. I have no idea what the Piper option has for doors but it would be an important factor in any decision I made.
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Rather have a U206 with the pax door STC
 
Ron Levy said:
A lot plusher cabin, additional soundproofing (which is a lot heavier than you might think), a lot more standard equipment, etc.
They're not assuming anything -- they sell you the plane with the POH including the W&B data, and after that, it's caveat emptor.

What's logical is making the plane's comfort and accommodations comparable to a Lexus or a Cadillac rather than a Yugo or Lada -- they know very well who's buying their new planes, and it ain't the folks driving a car which sells for $12K new today. When those folks spend half a mil on a new plane, they want the same comfort and features they have on the 7-series Beemer or Lincoln MK they drive to the airport to go fly that new plane. To get the same loads they used to get in a lot skimpier 6-seat single, they'd have to go today to a piston twin or turboprop single, in which most of those folks aren't going to attain/maintain the necessary proficiency. And 95% of the time, those sorts of folks are only carrying two people and bags, anyway.
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Well, they are taking away concrete capability for soft "creature comforts". Are they at all concerned that people won't buy the new model because of the reduced useful load?

I don't think they are concerned, because they do not even offer a "less plush" model with higher useful load.

Why do you think that "those sorts of folks only carry 2 people and bags 95% of the time"? Do those that spend more usually carry less?
 
It's my favorite plane of all and passengers love it. So why didn't I buy it? Simple: you can't add a parachute. You can add one to a 172 or 182, but not the PA series yet. It give me comfort when flying family and friends to have a chute. The later model Cirrus SR22's have a great useful. They depreciate really fast, so I expect I'll upgrade from my G2 SR22 in a few years.

Still, the PA32's are my favorite...the "airliner" of the GA fleet!
 
Frogs97 said:
But, if we wanted to take my mother in law, another FAA std person, or even our 2 golden retrievers, it seems we get up over gross very quickly for the 206 and A36. We also get WAY out of CG for the A36 and have to dump so much fuel that the trip would take forever.
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I dont know how big your mother in law is, but 400 up front, 250 in the middle, 1 FAA adult in the last row and 50lbs of luggage are easily doable in my A36TC with 70+ gallons of fuel.

The A36 does not have a rear CG issue. Some V-tails and some 33 series have a rear CG issue, but not the A36 (unless you have AC or a shelf full off weird electronics in the tail). You may even have a forward CG issue if it is just you and another good size male up front.


I got in this to fly with my family, whether it's 800nm trips or short hops around the state. Should I just focus my attention on the Cherokee 6/Lance/Toga line? I sure like that wide cabin.
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You won't fly 800nm in one shot with your family, MIL and the dogs on board. 2-3hr legs max.
 
dans2992 said:
Well, they are taking away concrete capability for soft "creature comforts". Are they at all concerned that people won't buy the new model because of the reduced useful load?

I don't think they are concerned, because they do not even offer a "less plush" model with higher useful load.

Why do you think that "those sorts of folks only carry 2 people and bags 95% of the time"? Do those that spend more usually carry less?
Click to expand...

In fact Piper tried this a few years back with the Saratoga 6X. They brought back the non retract, put a standard six pack in the plane, and made some other minor interior changes aimed at saving costs and weight on the plane. They got the listed useful load back up to around 1400 (I know very relative when most were sold with heavy options). They only kept the line for like 3 years, nobody wanted it.
 
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flyin'gator said:
i was in a club with a Six.
great plane. Super comfortable if not fleet of foot.
Wife loved it and hates small planes.
also fantastic for angel flight etc due to the rear door and roomy cabin.
Have a POH in a binder with tabs and page protectors collecting dust in a drawer. you are welcome to it, if you would like to do a deep dive into the type. pm address and i will send.
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Thanks for the offer. I'd like to take that off your hands. I'll PM with some details, and maybe we can meet up, instead of mailing it.

Was that the Six for a Six club that has moved between Hicks and Meacham?
 
VWGhiaBob said:
It's my favorite plane of all and passengers love it. So why didn't I buy it? Simple: you can't add a parachute. You can add one to a 172 or 182, but not the PA series yet. It give me comfort when flying family and friends to have a chute. The later model Cirrus SR22's have a great useful. They depreciate really fast, so I expect I'll upgrade from my G2 SR22 in a few years.

Still, the PA32's are my favorite...the "airliner" of the GA fleet!
Click to expand...

Despite her dad having been a pilot, she admitted to being slightly nervous about us all going up together the other day. She knows she will get over it, but I did mention the Cirrus to her. She was intrigued, but knows they are really pricey.
 
Lots of great insight there guys. Thanks!

weilke said:
You won't fly 800nm in one shot with your family, MIL and the dogs on board. 2-3hr legs max.
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No, I wasn't expecting that in one hop ... or possibly even two, depending on winds. My 9yo and wife have bladders the size of a teaspoon. And she's already told me that there will be no Travel John or anything of the like. So I'm only counting on 2 hours, at most for now. If we can get in a bigger, more comfortable plane, then might try and stretch to 2.5 or 3 ... but we'll work our way up to that!
 
Frogs97 said:
Lots of great insight there guys. Thanks!



No, I wasn't expecting that in one hop ... or possibly even two, depending on winds. My 9yo and wife have bladders the size of a teaspoon. And she's already told me that there will be no Travel John or anything of the like. So I'm only counting on 2 hours, at most for now. If we can get in a bigger, more comfortable plane, then might try and stretch to 2.5 or 3 ... but we'll work our way up to that!
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In a PA32 you will need about 65 to 70 gallons in the tanks and have more than enough with reserves for 3 hour legs. I figure about 16 gph, but that is very conservative. Once leaned out at altitude 13 to 14 gph is realistic (maybe even a little better). The plane I have access to is 1300 useful load, giving me around 875 to work with in the cabin.

That should be more than enough for what you are describing.
 
I have had 11 previous planes mostly high wing. Once my 13yo son hit 6'1" I bought a cherokee 6. I'm 6'4 280 the wife is FAA +25lbs the dog likes to stretch out and if you need a better reason here is a full size scooter in ours.

https://www.facebook.com/ACTIONPED/photos/pcb.10153041806710135/10153041806625135/?type=1&theater

It is rock solid in the bumpy stuff, leans out really nice at 5500 and it the quietest airplane I've ever owned. Try and find a good one for sale, it's hard for a reason.
 
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Scott@KTYR said:
CONGRATS on getting your ticket!!!
A fixed gear Six or a straight tail Lance would be the best plane for you. They haul more than the newer model Saratoga’s. Lots of room.
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Thanks!

I had been looking at the Lances. Not many straight tails out there, but lots of T-tails. What's the scoop on them? I know they aren't the best short field planes, but is 3000' runway on a hot day in the flatlands reasonable?
 
Frogs97 said:
Thanks!

I had been looking at the Lances. Not many straight tails out there, but lots of T-tails. What's the scoop on them? I know they aren't the best short field planes, but is 3000' runway on a hot day in the flatlands reasonable?
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If you do not mind me asking, when did you get your PPL?

T-Tail vs. Straight Tail - that has been debated to death. I would suggest searching for old treads and read all the opinions on this. Both are good planes.
 
Scott@KTYR said:
If you do not mind me asking, when did you get your PPL?

T-Tail vs. Straight Tail - that has been debated to death. I would suggest searching for old treads and read all the opinions on this. Both are good planes.
Click to expand...

Ummm ... I don't mind ... it was Friday.
 
Frogs97 said:
Ummm ... I don't mind ... it was Friday.
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This is just my 2cents but you may want to start out with a Fixed Gear Six (300 HP Engine) for your first plane. Being a New pilot it may be a little much to add Retract Gear to your flying. Not to say you could not handle it but in my experience after getting my license I still had some learning to do.
 
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