The SFRA is stated to go to FL180. I'm not sure what one has to do to fly above that level, or if filed flight plans often (or ever) fly over the SFRA. I haven't paid much attention to that aspect since I'll never be in that situation and only needed to know the procedures to get into/out of the SFRA
Keep in mind, 18,000 feet is less than 3nm. An unresponsive airplane traveling at high speeds towards DC is going to result in an intercept even if they aren't technically in the SFRA, because it'd take under a minute from level at cruise to smoking hole if terrorists had gotten control of it.
Since the ATC was obviously having communications problem with an unresponsive crew at least from the time a normal descent into Islip should have started, why was the response with jet fighters so late?
Had to go NORAD on way to KISP. There’s a lot of talking from where they departed to destination. Wonder when ATC knew there was a problem?? Latest Had to be around the time they didn’t start descending. That’s not a couple of min of flight. Interesting the start to intercept wasn’t alot sooner.
I assume you meant NORDO (no radio), not NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command). ;p But yes, it looks like they were at FL340 for almost the whole flight, so presumably when ATC did not get a response when initiating the descent would be the latest that ATC had an indication of an issue.
However, they don't just intercept any old NORDO aircraft right away. If you monitor Guard, you'll hear a few planes get "lost" every day if ATC either forgets to hand them off before they fly out of transmitter range or maybe the pilots were in a very interesting or heated discussion and didn't hear the call(s). I know of at least one instance where pilots were not monitoring guard and ATC Googled a phone number, called it, got a hold of the right people to contact the plane on a satellite phone. So, they definitely try plenty of other things before they scramble F-16s.
Now, when they turned around and still weren't communicating, I'm sure that made things more interesting... And when they continued toward DC, I'm sure many more red flags and lights went up in various places. But it was just about exactly 30 minutes from the turn to overflying DC. It probably took 5 minutes before anyone really thought about that possibility, a few more to call ATCSCC and/or the DEN, more yet to get word to the right people to send fighters up, more yet to get the pilots in the planes and taxi out and take off and get to an intercept... Sounds pretty much like I'd expect it to go, really.
Have flown several citations in the past. Some types have “EDM” (emergency descent mode). If the AP is engaged above FL310, and there is a rapid decompression, the airplane will automatically turn and descend without crew assistance.
Not saying that’s what happened here.
In fact, it looked like that did not happen. EDM initiates an immediate 90 degree turn in all the aircraft (including Citations) I'm aware of it on. The assumption behind that design is that you might be flying on an airway and initiating a descent without a turn risks a mid-air. There isn't any such turn, nor is there any descent until right at the very end.
I can picture one engine flaming out and with service ceiling on one engine being mid twenties it starts a descent that the autopilot tries to keep up with. Soon it begins the turn, then when second engine fails the autopilot definitely can’t keep up. Then AP disconnects.
Really? Even the older low-end AP in my cheap little RV-12 won't try to hold altitude into a stall. It's got a minimum airspeed (and a max) that will limit climb/descend/alt hold.
What do you have in your RV??? Most older autopilots, especially lower end ones, will hold altitude into a stall. Most of the ones that have envelope protection in the certified GA world say "Garmin" on them. If you have a cheap autopilot that won't hold altitude into a stall, be glad you're in the non-FAA-certified world.
Just curious. There were 53 minutes from the NYC turn to impact with the ground. Is that not in the reserves? Hard to believe they would stay at 34,000 feet and not land when less than an hour of fuel remained.
Ok. So after the NYC turn they flew 8 minutes then we’re in their reserves? It was about 53 minutes from that turn to no more signal. For signal to disappear at 29,000 feet going about 440 knots, seems like in flight break up had to happen. The real question is if they had help “breaking up” from an F16 since they had already passed over DC and were headed towards VA where the Pentagon and CIA Langley are located. My confidence in our government is low enough to be suspicious at this point. Jus saying.
Jets generally don't take much more fuel than they require for a flight, because the lower they are, the more they burn, and any extra weight will slow their climb and cause even more fuel burn.
Given that this flight was filed for FL390 and never got there, they'd have burned more fuel than planned for the entire flight, so likely they had an hour plus reserve at FL390. When I looked at how long it took to get from the destination to the crash site, I pretty much thought "Yep, they ran out of gas there."
As a LSU person it's interesting to note that this ghost plane stuff started in 1980 with the Conquest with LSU's football coach on it - way back time but I don't really recall any accidents of this type prior to that.
Some pretty spectacular ones since then Payne Stewart, TBM owner association head, etc. Sure seems these are getting more common, although likely a function of increased flight level GA activity likely low hanging fruit in terms of safety improvement.
Maybe it's getting more common... Or maybe the Internet is helping us be more aware of it when it does happen.
The flight path looks correct for a flight filed to ISP that never got the runway and approach loaded in. The last filed fix, then direct to ISP. Flight plan runs out and goes into heading mode. What doesn’t make sense is there was no speed loss before the rapid descent started. If it were fuel starvation it would have slowed to a stall. Aircraft break-up (with assist?).
Yeah, the lack of a slow-down is weird. However, looking at it on ADS-B Exchange, it looks like what might happen if the autopilot disconnected when the first engine failed - It goes suddenly into a right turn that then tightens up. The vertical speed peaks at -30,016 fpm but then goes back up, like the start of a phugoid oscillation.
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=a7f457&lat=37.931&lon=-79.102&zoom=12.0&showTrace=2023-06-04
So, maybe whatever autopilot a relatively ancient Citation V had would completely disconnect when the yaw damper got overwhelmed. It certainly does not bear the signature of a shoot-down, which would be more of a ballistic path. This one had the wings attached most, if not all, of the way in.
Disclaimer...new GA student pilot that knows jack about pressurized cabin systems...
I find the entire scenario puzzling. No indication from the military pilot escorts that there was visible evidence that would have caused rapid decompression (structural damage, etc) from what I've gathered. And if it were somehow extremely rapid, how is it the pilot and pax could be unaware- wouldn't there be a horrendous hissing of the pressurized air leaving the cabin, not to mention anything loose/ light getting sucked towards the breach?
How do these systems work? The extent of my knowledge is bleed air from the engines is used. Is there typically some leakage, whereby a sensor introduces more bleed air to maintain pressure? I just can't fathom that multimillion $$ aircraft such as this do not have sensors and audible/visual alarms for this situation. Seems completely avoidable with the necessary technology in place.
I must be missing the obvious, so can someone please 'splain it to me?
The necessary technology is in place on newer aircraft of this type, but this was an old one. 1990.
Generally, pressurization systems control the pressure by opening and closing an outflow valve. Leakier airplane means the outflow will be generally more closed.
These systems do fail. Outflow valve gets stuck open during the climb, and you may have a system that is "working" but you don't notice at first, because you're expecting the pressure in the cabin to go down as you climb anyway, and the cabin may still be partially pressurized. Depending on the system, the warnings may not start until the cabin altitude is above a certain level, like 12-14,000 feet. With a single pilot, especially an older one, he may not have really recognized what was going on until it was too late for him.
