Something going on around DC

MPB said:
As a LSU person it's interesting to note that this ghost plane stuff started in 1980 with the Conquest with LSU's football coach on it - way back time but I don't really recall any accidents of this type prior to that.
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Ghost of flight 401, 1972. Also a movie with Ernest Borgnine and Kim Basinger and I think I see an Amazon series. I'm sure there's something that predates even that.
 
John Spartan said:
Ok. So after the NYC turn they flew 8 minutes then we’re in their reserves? It was about 53 minutes from that turn to no more signal. For signal to disappear at 29,000 feet going about 440 knots, seems like in flight break up had to happen. The real question is if they had help “breaking up” from an F16 since they had already passed over DC and were headed towards VA where the Pentagon and CIA Langley are located. My confidence in our government is low enough to be suspicious at this point. Jus saying.
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The CIA is actually slightly northwest of DC, and the Pentagon is across the Potomac (on the Virginia-side of the river) directly west of the city. So the plane, once it had overflown DC on its course, was past those sensitive locations and actually heading away from them.
 
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TrueCourse said:
I can picture one engine flaming out and with service ceiling on one engine being mid twenties it starts a descent that the autopilot tries to keep up with. Soon it begins the turn, then when second engine fails the autopilot definitely can’t keep up. Then AP disconnects.
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Also mentions just a single pilot, not a flight crew. Is that normal procedure for a Citation?
 
KDCA said:
The CIA is actually slightly northwest of DC, and the Pentagon is across the Potomac (on the Virginia-side of the river) directly west of the city. So the plane, once it had overflown DC on its course, was past those sensitive locations and actually heading away from them.
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are they both in the SFRA?
 
Rich Holt said:
There is a new-ish device where you wear an oxygen mask while on a flight simulator and they mess with the O2 percentage at random intervals. It is a much more realistic demonstration of the slow onset of hypoxia. The USN had just started using the partial pressure trainer when I tapped out in 18. The chamber is a little bogus because you know it is about to happen and you can see other people putting their masks back on. Yet people still fail on a pretty regular basis requiring re-rides...
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I have heard about the "Hypoxia Simulator ( PROTE ) Portable Reduced Oxygen Training Enclosure ", but have never seen one at a location where I might have access to try it.
I love the idea of combining the Hypoxia demonstration with a flight simulator for a more realistic scenario. I am not sure if this is the device you are talking about or not.

Brian
CFIIIG/aSEL
 
brcase said:
I was fortunate enough be able to take an altitude chamber course a number of years ago.
I wish these were more available for civilians.

They showed us the following video as part of that course...


What stands out to me is the "Sir, you are going to die, put on your mask!!" (paraphrased I am sure), and his response is "4 of spades"

I think this brain going into a loop is a fairly common exterior symptom of hypoxia, the dangerous part is the victim (??) doesn't even realize they are doing it.

I am aware of another accident last year where an experienced pilot encountered a hypoxia event (mechanical issue) and continued on a course a line (fortunately he was in a slow descent) until he was at a location that he had no other option but to ditch the aircraft.
Afterwards he remembered doing it, but was at a total loss to explain why he did it, it wasn't until a couple months after the accident the likely issue with the O2 system was discovered.

Brian
CFIIG
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What percentage of jet pilots (corporate, airline, civilian) do ya'll think have actually done a chamber ride like that?

I did a ride many years ago through the FAA's program that got slots for civilian pilots to ride in the military chambers. I lived near Langley AFB at the time. I have always felt fortunate to have done it, and actually have found it extremely educational and useful even though I have never flown or will I likely ever fly high altitude or especially pressurized aircraft.
One of my takeaways was how useful O2 can be even at altitudes lower than what the FAA requires.
And my big regret about it was not allowing myself to get very deep into the hypoxia..... as I recall they told us to put the mask back on ourselves whenever we felt the need. I did not "like" the drunk feeling at the time, and so I ended it after about 4 minutes (at FL 250). I seriously wish I would have let it go longer and let them force my mask back on so that I could have experienced the "full deal"

Anyway, I agree....the awareness of first hand experience would no doubt help reduce these, even if only just a little

For those that have never done it, to me it seemed almost exactly like the feeling of drinking booze..... except it comes on a whole lot faster....
and it was amazing how fast it cleared after just a breath or two back on the O2.....
 
John Spartan said:
Fe


Yes, lord help us for missing something in geography. But we have YOU here to contribute… exactly what? Ah. Nothing. You’re lacking commentary aside, our government routinely screws up these days. I find there is more to question about our leadership than there is to trust. In this case, there are plenty of questions and what are turning out to be convenient coincidences. Feel free to trust the government all you like. But seriously. Thanks for that stellar comment. :)
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LOL, I literally posted the flight path several posts above yours. All it takes is a half second to see it and understand that they were well beyond DC, Alexandria, Langley, etc. by the time they went down. It’s literally common sense and a bit of geographical understanding, which you clearly lack, in favor of ooga-booga stuff.
 
brcase said:
I have heard about the "Hypoxia Simulator ( PROTE ) Portable Reduced Oxygen Training Enclosure ", but have never seen one at a location where I might have access to try it.
I love the idea of combining the Hypoxia demonstration with a flight simulator for a more realistic scenario. I am not sure if this is the device you are talking about or not.

Brian
CFIIIG/aSEL
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I believe they've had them at AirVenture.
It's quite an experience. I was useless.
 
Den60 said:
Also mentions just a single pilot, not a flight crew. Is that normal procedure for a Citation?
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Depends on the Citation being flown and the pilot’s rating. In this case it was being operated single-pilot. I’ve flown the exact make and model and was two-pilot crew. Two pilots could have potential solved a problem or prevented a mistake that one pilot couldn’t or didn’t, but it will be awhile before that is known.
 
KDCA said:
The CIA is actually slightly northwest of DC, and the Pentagon is across the Potomac (on the Virginia-side of the river) directly west of the city. So the plane, once it had overflown DC on its course, was past those sensitive locations and actually heading away from them.
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Nope, due west right across the river.
 
brcase said:
I have heard about the "Hypoxia Simulator ( PROTE ) Portable Reduced Oxygen Training Enclosure ", but have never seen one at a location where I might have access to try it.
I love the idea of combining the Hypoxia demonstration with a flight simulator for a more realistic scenario. I am not sure if this is the device you are talking about or not.
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The portable chamber is very cool. It's basically a tent, think bubble boy, that they scrub the oxygen out of. So you're at atmospheric pressure, by hypoxic. The FAA brought one down here a few years ago, and it's a trip. I don't know if they're traveling much with it since the VID, but you may be able to sign up on the FAA website for when it's in your area. I've never done the altitude chamber, but I feel like PROTE may actually be more accurate for most GA hypoxia incidents.
 
Brad W said:
One of my takeaways was how useful O2 can be even at altitudes lower than what the FAA requires.
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A number of years ago I volunteered to work (Score and tow gliders) at a National Soaring Competition. Short version a 10 day race where pilots compete to fly various courses at the fastest speed. What I noticed is that out of about 60 glider pilots roughly 3 out of 4 of them were putting on Oxygen Cannulas, prior to take off which seemed a bit strange since the maximum altitudes they were getting to was about 10,000 feet. Inquiring with a few of them I learned that most set their equipment (typically Mountain High controllers) to start Oxygen at 5000ft. When asked why, most said they found that they make better decisions and fly faster over a 4 hour flight than they do with out it.i.e. they found using oxygen to be a competitive advantage when racing.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
John Spartan said:
Ok. So after the NYC turn they flew 8 minutes then we’re in their reserves? It was about 53 minutes from that turn to no more signal. For signal to disappear at 29,000 feet going about 440 knots, seems like in flight break up had to happen. The real question is if they had help “breaking up” from an F16 since they had already passed over DC and were headed towards VA where the Pentagon and CIA Langley are located. My confidence in our government is low enough to be suspicious at this point. Jus saying.
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Suspicious of what? If the F-16s were to shoot it down it wouldn’t be some conspiracy. They’d be complying with whatever ROE is in place for something like this. It’s not like they’re just winging it out there. After 9/11 they’ve tightened up their SOPs on things like this.
 
donjohnston said:
CIA Headquarters is northwest from downtown DC.
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Easy fella. Flying Iron is monitoring for geographical inaccuracies. You might get an “ooga booga” call from him if he sees this post. I know, I know. He’s REALLY important to us all.
 
John Spartan said:
Easy fella. Flying Iron is monitoring for geographical inaccuracies. You might get an “ooga booga” call from him if he sees this post. I know, I know. He’s REALLY important to us all.
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I’ll take that as walking back your conspiracy nonsense.
 
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Zeldman said:
Same here. As a kid sonic booms were not heard everyday, but were definitely a lot more common in summer.

The last sonic boom I heard was in Florida in 1993 as the space shuttle came over head for landing at Cape Canaveral, at 5:30am....
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They still do it out here. Can scare the crap out of ya. Back in the 90s a lot of people around central GA complained so these days they try and go supersonic off shore when able.
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Joe was at Joint Base Andrews golfing when the F 16's blasted off. The Secret Service did not notify him, to avoid causing tension. He never knew it was happening, until later.

The government was not too worried, the pilot was dead, the plane on autopilot, and 45 minute reserve would take the crash well away from Washington.

The F 16's were in case the autopilot had a glitch, and the plane turned again.

The budget and debt limit changes had been signed by Joe, and the Government was back on autopilot, with full money tanks.

Rest easy, all.
 
Flying Keys said:
This is the definition of irony.

Make a ridiculous statement about some conspiracy with zero evidence, get called on it, then attack the guy who called you on it. Then double down and try to up your credibility when you’re clearly out of your league. Too funny.
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Buddy, go back and read the thread. The attacks have been all YOU. You like the government? Good for you. Carry on. You get your opinion. Others get theirs too tho even if you disagree. You are the guy on here “calling people out” and then acting like you have some higher ground. You should probably get a life if being the geography monitor in this forum is your best achievement.
 
Turbo-Arrow-Driver said:
Just FYI and FWIW, I think that two previous tail numbers on the Citation are YV3178 and N103BG. At least they seem to have the same A/C serial number. I found some photos at the links below.

https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8312072

https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/201157345/n103bg-1990-cessna-citation-v
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Why does one change the N number of an aircraft (assuming within the same country)?

Edit - was this one registered first in the US, then Venezuela, then back to the US again?
 
John Spartan said:
Buddy, go back and read the thread. The attacks have been all YOU. You like the government? Good for you. Carry on. You get your opinion. Others get theirs too tho even if you disagree. You are the guy on here “calling people out” and then acting like you have some higher ground. You should probably get a life if being the geography monitor in this forum is your best achievement.
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LOL again. You came in and directly insinuated a government shootdown using extremely wet ammo that could have easily have been saved if you a) weren’t hot to pin it on something government and b) understood basic, established geography. Your self-awareness of either of those would have prevented you from showing your tail. The fact you don’t have any isn’t my fault.

Hanging a curve like that does nothing but help the other side. I’ll continue to help you with your geography, it’s fun.
 
dbahn said:
Apparently there were three passengers on board. I wonder if any of them ever knew what was going on or if they just became quietly hypoxic and slept through the nightmare.
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One would hope.
 
Flying Keys said:
LOL again. You came in and directly insinuated a government shootdown using extremely wet ammo that could have easily have been saved if you a) weren’t hot to pin it on something government and b) understood basic, established geography. Your self-awareness of either of those would have prevented you from showing your tail. The fact you don’t have any isn’t my fault.

Hanging a curve like that does nothing but help the other side. I’ll continue to help you with your geography, it’s fun.
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And none shall speak against the government while you are on the forum. Got it. I spoke about the government. You spoke about me. If you don’t see the distinction between criticism of government vs your attack on a fellow forum member, not much help for you. Again, do what you like. Just try an accept that others get opinions too. Good luck.
 
John Spartan said:
And none shall speak against the government while you are on the forum. Got it. I spoke about the government. You spoke about me. If you don’t see the distinction between criticism of government vs your attack on a fellow forum member, not much help for you. Again, do what you like. Just try an accept that others get opinions too. Good luck.
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LOL, you’re in a forum, an accident sub-category, no less, populated by pilots, a group known to be fairly meticulous, especially when it comes to spatial orientation and the ability to look things up, like maps. You can express your anti-government opinion all you want, I’d probably agree with you on plenty of it. But the least you could have done was post something plausible and factual versus a half-baked, easily refutable “opinion” stated as fact. You’re so quick to bash your enemy that you lose credibility out the door.
 
Baked Potato said:
Why does one change the N number of an aircraft (assuming within the same country)?

Edit - was this one registered first in the US, then Venezuela, then back to the US again?
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Yeah, I think that was the sequence.

I ended up getting an N-number change on an a/c because the sequence of numbers in the original N-number was easy to confuse, and ATC would often get it wrong. Just got tired of that, so changed it.
 
John Spartan said:
headed towards VA where the Pentagon and CIA Langley are located. My confidence in our government is low enough to be suspicious at this point. Jus saying.
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Check a map. Pentagon and CIA are just across the river from DC. And still in the FRZ. Crash site was over 100 miles away.
 
TCABM said:
Yes, but, if you’re in Class A airspace, you’re not in the DC SFRA.
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Yes but the question was about the pentagon and cia hq, so unless they are levitating at 18,001 feet, they are in SFRA territory!

now, back to our regularly scheduled conspiracy discussion…
 
The flight path looks correct for a flight filed to ISP that never got the runway and approach loaded in. The last filed fix, then direct to ISP. Flight plan runs out and goes into heading mode. What doesn’t make sense is there was no speed loss before the rapid descent started. If it were fuel starvation it would have slowed to a stall. Aircraft break-up (with assist?).
 
Baked Potato said:
Why does one change the N number of an aircraft (assuming within the same country)?

Edit - was this one registered first in the US, then Venezuela, then back to the US again?
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I’ve put N747JB on 7 airplanes over the last 30 years, some of us have a particular N number that we like. I’m currently waiting on the new owners of my 425 to register it to the number painted under 747JB!
 
TrueCourse said:
Depends on the Citation being flown and the pilot’s rating. In this case it was being operated single-pilot. I’ve flown the exact make and model and was two-pilot crew. Two pilots could have potential solved a problem or prevented a mistake that one pilot couldn’t or didn’t, but it will be awhile before that is known.
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I flew a 551 for 7 years as a single pilot, but the plane itself was qualified for single pilot operations, mainly a lower gross weight! I have a standard CE500 type rating, so I can only fly 501’s and 551’s single pilot.
 
N747JB said:
I flew a 551 for 7 years as a single pilot, but the plane itself was qualified for single pilot operations, mainly a lower gross weight! I have a standard CE500 type rating, so I can only fly 501’s and 551’s single pilot.
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Evidently NBC news wants you to think that it flew right by the Washington Monument at a low altitude with its gear down. :eek:



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