Someone should create an AOPA competitor

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MountainDude

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MountainDude
I think this is a good time for someone entrepreneurial to disrupt the AOPA monopoly and revive GA. I understand the EAA is doing a good job, but this would be in addition to them and AOPA.

If I were to run this organization, I would simply bring a startup attitude and treat the members as investors. Here are some major things I would do:
- Have an up-to-date list of all active projects, prioritized based on the members' poll and impact on the GA (all this would be transparently displayed)
- For each project, define the goals, timelines, current status, and link to a dedicated webpage that gives more details and how others can help (write letters, sign petitions, provide money...)

For each year of operations, be very transparent about:
- What was accomplished. Not the goals, what was tried, what was discussed, what was thought, etc. ONLY what was accomplished.
- How was the money spent on staff and for each project
- Describe the impact of the accomplishments on the GA for each project

Have an easy way for members to create and support new projects via fundraising and lobbying
Have regional organizations that meet, brainstorm, and carry out actions.
Have something similar to Young eagles, but brainstorm other ideas for involving the community.

Why am I suggesting this?
AOPA's yearly budget is close to $50M. In the last 10 years, they have spent almost $500M and I think they could have done much more for GA with that money.

Thoughts?
 
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Up until about 10 years ago I found the AOPA a pretty impressive advocate for GA, particularly under its leadership at the time. My sense is that they still are.

Since building and flying an experimental, the EAA has gained more of my interest. I ended my membership in part because I had too many magazines coming to my door (wrong reason) and in reaction to a single magazine article covering the culling of hogs from light planes (stupid reason). Just a bit too many semi-auto rifles and bloodlust that reminded of Hueys chasing people back in the day (not a vet).

My fickle departure is one of the micro- challenges an Organization like AOPA faces. I think they do a fine job with the real ones. No need for a competitor in my opinion.


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I dumped out of AOPA last year. The dues go up and the benefit goes down and I'm not buying their argument on influence. They're out of touch with the people they claim to represent. Yep, the EAA on the other hand, when I had an issue a couple of years back not only did I get a response direct from their President's office but three of the other board members called me on the phone (two of which were the division presidents).
 
Sounds to me, biased as I admit to be, like a good way to divide the general aviation community politically and reduce whatever little lobbying influence we have.

I've been corresponding online with a UK YouTube pilot. Recently did a video on a special sale its privatized ATC system had for full IFR service to a particular airport. I'm a real newbie on understanding their system, think there's about 4 levels of service available - mostly centered on how much traffic conflict resolution you want - and I've watched him regularly being handed off to a controller who had no idea who he was, getting a separate squawk, and being asked for what level of service he wanted for each sector. Today I saw a video in which he pulled out paper charts from a binder instead of just pulling them up in Foreflight (which he uses). It was to make sure they were easily available and to avoid, as he put it, costing ££££.
 
All that wonderful wonderful AOPA "influence" helped bring that ADS-B equippage mandate. How wonderful to spend multiple AMUs to equip aircraft with a completely screwed up system (ADS-B could have been incredibly useful, but it is a classical case of design by committee).

so, sure, let's have an organization that actually helps small GA.

(too subtle?)
 
midlifeflyer said:
.......I've been corresponding online with a UK YouTube pilot. Recently did a video on a special sale its privatized ATC system had for full IFR service to a particular airport. I'm a real newbie on understanding their system, think there's about 4 levels of service available - mostly centered on how much traffic conflict resolution you want - and I've watched him regularly being handed off to a controller who had no idea who he was, getting a separate squawk, and being asked for what level of service he wanted for each sector. Today I saw a video in which he pulled out paper charts from a binder instead of just pulling them up in Foreflight (which he uses). It was to make sure they were easily available and to avoid, as he put it, costing ££££.
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Just curious what this has to do with the OP’s topic?
 
eman1200 said:
Just curious what this has to do with the OP’s topic?
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One of AOPAs key function is as a lobbyist to the government to represent our interest. I believe he's pointing out the consequences of a lack of significant influence and the resulting privitization costs and inefficiencies compared to the system we enjoy today.

FWIW, I'd like to see AOPA and EAA work together on getting the FAA, especially the medical branch, to be forced to modernize. Every time I hear the word "fax" or "scanned" when someone here has a medical issue I want to scream. Not to mention their outdated ideas on mental health.

If I were in charge of either/both (AOPA/EAA) , I'd demand we produce our own studies and strategies to resolve them then publish them to the world so every member could be a voice to our legislatures and demand action.
 
I remember when you had to be an owner or a pilot to join.
 
From my perspective, AOPA gets meetings and FaceTime with high level folks within the FAA. They don't always get their way, but neither does A4A or ALPA. But you can't exert influence if you're not in the room.

They also have clout on the hill. Unless this new organization is prepared to fund election campaigns, its influence in the GA community will be limited.
 
Bob Noel said:
All that wonderful wonderful AOPA "influence" helped bring that ADS-B equippage mandate. How wonderful to spend multiple AMUs to equip aircraft with a completely screwed up system (ADS-B could have been incredibly useful, but it is a classical case of design by committee).

so, sure, let's have an organization that actually helps small GA.

(too subtle?)
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What's so bad about it? Yeah, I had to put a new box in my panel, but it replaced a (really) old one, and I get weather and traffic in the cockpit with no subscription costs. Sorry, I'm having a really tough time seeing the down side.
 
I've been a member since 1965 and think the organization does a pretty good job advocating for GA. I've used their legal insurance services and it really helped. They pushed hard for medical reform and we got BasicMed, which for me is worth the 55 years of dues I've paid. AOPA Pilot has always had good, timely articles.

I also joined EAA in 1966, am a Chapter 124 member, and have found the "how to" articles in Sport Aviation invaluable.
 
eman1200 said:
Just curious what this has to do with the OP’s topic?
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The first sentence of my post was the connection.
midlifeflyer said:
Sounds to me, biased as I admit to be, like a good way to divide the general aviation community politically and reduce whatever little lobbying influence we have.
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Others may completely discount that influence in preventing a UK-style environment. I don't.
 
steingar said:
What's so bad about it? Yeah, I had to put a new box in my panel, but it replaced a (really) old one, and I get weather and traffic in the cockpit with no subscription costs. Sorry, I'm having a really tough time seeing the down side.
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You know how it is these days. It's bad because it's not perfect and 100% successful 100% of the time.
 
Bill Watson said:
and in reaction to a single magazine article covering the culling of hogs from light planes (stupid reason). Just a bit too many semi-auto rifles and bloodlust that reminded of Hueys chasing people back in the day (not a vet).
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Blood-lust may get some people to do it, but the people paying the kind of money to hire a helicopter and team to do it are looking at it from a financial standpoint from the damage the hogs do. I dropped a sow at the family place a month ago but they would really like to take out 20-30+...

I rather suspect AOPA has become similar to what many gun owners feel NRA became - bloated and best at helping those at the top of the organization itself, rather than effective. I'd like to be wrong, but too much pointed to that.

Maybe it IS time for there to be a new aviation letter group.
 
steingar said:
What's so bad about it? Yeah, I had to put a new box in my panel, but it replaced a (really) old one, and I get weather and traffic in the cockpit with no subscription costs. Sorry, I'm having a really tough time seeing the down side.
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The mandated expense is just another thing killing small GA. Small GA is being priced out.
 
Bob Noel said:
All that wonderful wonderful AOPA "influence" helped bring that ADS-B equippage mandate. How wonderful to spend multiple AMUs to equip aircraft with a completely screwed up system (ADS-B could have been incredibly useful, but it is a classical case of design by committee).

so, sure, let's have an organization that actually helps small GA.

(too subtle?)
Click to expand...
Since small GA shares airspace with the big guys, small GA does a pretty decent job considering the relative level of resources for lobbying. And some of the big guys (*cough* Boeing *cough*) certainly have used their influence to get their way and the result has been detrimental to everyone. Considering all the stakeholders involved, it's surprising that things are as good as they are.

Having participated in international and domestic negotiations regarding aviation issues I fully understand the ADS-B mandate. Yes, it was a compromise. Had the big guys gotten all they wanted there would be no weather or 978 capability in the system. The ground network would like not have been as good as it is (and no, it's not great but it's a lot better than it could be). GA did get something out of it, despite the mandate. Like the VHF channel splits in the past, it requires new equipment - for all the moaning here about 1940s tractor engine technology in aircraft engines, there's a surprising amount of moaning about having to upgrade to a modern transponder system.

The aeromedical branch is hamstrung. Things like fax are probably unavoidable (even many regular health systems as well as Social Security/Medicare still use fax on the assumption that it's somehow mor secure/better than internet delivery (cue DenverPilot) - despite the fact that most of us are using IP phone systems that won't work with fax, thus requiring the use of an Internet service like EFAX. We're it me, I'd focus on improving the response and processing time for SIs, especially staffing. Even there, though, the agency is hamstrung by the likes of NTSB, Congress (demanding that SOMETHING be done to keep people safe, time and money be damned), international requirements, the AMA, and the pilot population. I am, frankly, surprised that Congress pushed (and the agency responded to) Basic Med. Hopefully, data gathered from that program can be used to loosen some of the other requirements.

As for AOPA, I have mixed feelings about their performance and image over the last 5-10 years. The amount paid to the CEO and the fringe benefits are not great for the image, but on the other hand that's what it takes to get an effective non-profit CEO in the DC area. What does A4A pay its top officers? I think that AOPA could improve how it does some things, but it also hast to be dependent on volunteers to accomplish a lot of stuff. I think it's lost sight of some of the members, but on the other hand if the members have too high of an expectation (e.g. Take it or leave it attitude) with respect to others in the aviation community or are not willing to have the organization reach a negotiated solution it'll end up being just like politics these days.
 
It is a lobbying organization, pure and simple. As our population continues to slide, and as airports close, we actually do need a group to represent GA with politicians. Politicians only respond to lobbyists who whisper in their ear how much $ they are going to get in the upcoming election cycle. Would love to see their lobbying expense detail. I am not a member because like most big brand named non-profits such as AOPA, The National Rifle Association and most big Colleges, the surplus cash merely inflates salaries and administrative budgets at the top. AOPA doesn't need more $, they are doing just fine.
 
wsuffa said:
...

Having participated in international and domestic negotiations regarding aviation issues I fully understand the ADS-B mandate. Yes, it was a compromise...
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You aren't the only one that has participated in CNS/ATM stuff. I actually do fully understand ADS-B and the technical problems with it (*cough* zero verification of message source *cough*).

"compromise"? ha - look at up fustercluck in the dictionary and there is ADS-B staring you in the face.

ADS-B could have replaced TCAS II with a superior 3D collosion avoidance system... but don't get in the cross-hairs of the Mode S mafia or the ground side of the FAA.
 
I turned off the auto-renewal this year and my AOPA membership will lapse as of the end of today as a matter of fact. I'm not saying that they aren't the largest lobbying organization for GA, but there's far too much cash being spent (and kept in the coffers) with little transparency as to what it was/is for. They like to tell about all of the advocacy they do and how important it is, but there's no record that shows where there effort really goes. Those at the top seem to get paid VERY handsomely without having to provide much proof that they are actually effective.
 
Bob Noel said:
You aren't the only one that has participated in CNS/ATM stuff. I actually do fully understand ADS-B and the technical problems with it (*cough* zero verification of message source *cough*).

"compromise"? ha - look at up fustercluck in the dictionary and there is ADS-B staring you in the face.

ADS-B could have replaced TCAS II with a superior 3D collosion avoidance system... but don't get in the cross-hairs of the Mode S mafia or the ground side of the FAA.
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Oh, I wish it were just the FAA. A bunch of my work was at the international level where you've got not only the FAA, EASA, NTIA, the individual agencies in each country, RTCA, and the ITU (among others) who all have their hands in it. It's why a standard takes decades to implement, and even then it's suboptimal. AIrlines and air commerce want international standards, and the US is not the only player any more.

I don't disagree that verification, TCAS, etc. could have been improved. Authentication and message security should have been included, though that presents issues with controlling the keys as well as the three-letter security agencies (even the regional mutual-aid public safety systems on Part 25 have an issue with this). Hell, aviation COM radios still use AM...

(If you want to see what a fustercluck is, this FAA project may take the cake: http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Projects-Processes/The-Ugly-History-of-Tool-Development-at-the-FAA ). I look at it as all being relative.

Wish we could dispose of all the legacy systems and replace them, but that's not happening, either.
 
Over the last decade or so, I've gotten the impression AOPA lobbying has shifted to caring significantly more for 'big' GA (corporate/business jet crowd) and much less for us little guys flying C172s class aircraft.

When you see statments like 'the mandate is expected to cost the aveage GA pilot $2k dollars, which isn't significant' well, when you can only afford a $20k airplane, the new mandate is 10% the value of the aircraft... After the $2k is spent... your plane is still only worth $20k.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
I turned off the auto-renewal this year and my AOPA membership will lapse as of the end of today as a matter of fact. I'm not saying that they aren't the largest lobbying organization for GA, but there's far too much cash being spent (and kept in the coffers) with little transparency as to what it was/is for. They like to tell about all of the advocacy they do and how important it is, but there's no record that shows where there effort really goes. Those at the top seem to get paid VERY handsomely without having to provide much proof that they are actually effective.
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Don't worry, they'll hound you for months afterward. After 4 months, you might get an offer that includes "Join within the next 48 hours, and we’ll send you our latest AOPA pilot’s cap, flashlight, and headset bag! You’ll also receive an AOPA Pilot decal, wings pin, membership card, and a one year’s subscription to AOPA Pilot magazine along with other great AOPA benefits! "

Wow- a membership card. All for a full-price renewal.

If you choose to re-up, take the $20-off offer that they'll send multiple times and choose the one with whatever swag you need the most. You'll get the same membership card and all the other great AOPA benefits.
 
UngaWunga said:
The mandated expense is just another thing killing small GA. Small GA is being priced out.
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ADS-B is the smallest portion of the cost of aircraft ownership in my experience. Didn't even move the needle. I totally agree with GA being slowly priced out, but blaming ADS-B for this is just not realistic. On the contrary, its a super useful system that has quite literally saved my bacon more than once.
 
Seems like EAA is becoming what AOPA used to be and becoming more relevant to long time AOPA members, while long time EAA members are complaining that EAA is no longer relevant to its original mission (homebuilding). I guess it's the iron law of bureaucracy (as organizations grow, more and more of their effort goes into maintaining the organization and less into the organization's original goals.
 
wsuffa said:
Don't worry, they'll hound you for months afterward. After 4 months, you might get an offer that includes "Join within the next 48 hours, and we’ll send you our latest AOPA pilot’s cap, flashlight, and headset bag! You’ll also receive an AOPA Pilot decal, wings pin, membership card, and a one year’s subscription to AOPA Pilot magazine along with other great AOPA benefits! "

Wow- a membership card. All for a full-price renewal.

If you choose to re-up, take the $20-off offer that they'll send multiple times and choose the one with whatever swag you need the most. You'll get the same membership card and all the other great AOPA benefits.
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Lol, I was supposed to get the ballcap and other items years ago when I first signed up, yet it never came. I've been getting emails weekly from them "reminding" me that my renewal was up. EAA just seems like a better value and an organization that is more agile at responding to member concerns and adapting to those needs. AOPA has too much inertia and will take a decade to make any meaningful shift, and that assumes that they even care about what small GA wants. They'd rather cater to the jet-set crowd since that's where the money is.
 
MountainDude said:
I think this is a good time for someone entrepreneurial to disrupt the AOPA monopoly and revive GA.
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I nominate MountainDude to head this up.

And issue the challenge to do this without accepting any contributions or donations..... but we need those free caps.!! :lol::lol:
 
MountainDude said:
I think this is a good time for someone entrepreneurial to disrupt the AOPA monopoly and revive GA. I understand the EAA is doing a good job, but this would be in addition to them and AOPA.
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Is there anything in particular stopping you from doing this? Have at it! Don't be another pilot who expects someone else to do it for you.

More seriously, the GA community is so small that it is barely relevant today. Splitting the GA membership in AOPA is splitting our clout with the CongressCritter$ and others, reducing our influence, as small as it is now, to irrelevance? Think hard about this.

-Skip
 
AOPA had this little internet forum. It was over moderation of this little forum that caused the formation of this board. It was little and over modulated, mostly crashes. I still liked it. AOPA shut it down with a truly BS explanation. More money, less service. Count me out.
 
A new AOPA-like organization would be popular for a while.... then become the latest target for vocal malcontents, just like AOPA suffers with now.
That’s just how people are with large national associations.

Most of the complaining about OUR organization is unjustified.

I daresay if a complainer actually spent time working alongside those at the AOPA, saw how much they do for us & how diligently they are working to preserve GA, they would come away ashamed at their comments.
 
I am here because the AOPA canceled their true forum without asking the members. I do think AOPA political clout is important and I am a PAC contributor and I think Basic Med is great. However, for me the the growth of bizjets has really harmed my flying. Why? Because ramp fees and similar almost never existed until the arrival of bizjets and these have essentially shut down many convenient airports as my 14 MPG plane double fuel cost is in serious competition with my 38 MPG car and charging $40 just to pick up PAX has made me question the value of flying. And I want a pure small GA organization that relates to my problems and needs. It is NOT the membership cost and I do belong to the EAA.
 
All want to add is that people who think AOPA has accomplished nothing should fly in other countries. The US is, hands down, the best country in the world for GA. That's not an accident. AOPA did play a role in that over a very long timeframe.
 
rwellner98 said:
All want to add is that people who think AOPA has accomplished nothing should fly in other countries. The US is, hands down, the best country in the world for GA. That's not an accident. AOPA did play a role in that over a very long timeframe.
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So they would have you believe.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I daresay if a complainer actually spent time working alongside those at the AOPA, saw how much they do for us & how diligently they are working to preserve GA, they would come away ashamed at their comments.
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Unfortunately most of what they do for us and how diligently they are working is apparently considered TOP SECRET.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Unfortunately most of what they do for us and how diligently they are working is apparently considered TOP SECRET.
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Exactly. The problem with saying "AOPA kept GA from becoming like Europe" is that there's no way to prove that since we can't re-write history to see what would happen in AOPA's absence. They tell us all how much they are "fighting the good fight" and lobbying, but never provide anything concrete. It's not about the measly cost of a membership (which has gone up significantly over the past decade), it's that they have millions in the coffers and never really lay out a plan for what they intend to do with it from a lobbying/advocacy standpoint. It's just a quarterly letter telling us that they need our donations now to mount a defense against tyranny (or whatever imminent crisis they want to create).
 
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