some very good lessons on loss of control etc

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
6,553
Location
KLZU
Display Name
Display name:
Priyo

i found this video very informative. i for one have a habit of answering the controller whenever they ask me to do something even if it is the most inappropriate time... gotto change that
 
I see Aviation101 is working with him (Dryer?) next.
 
I wish there were more cfi’s who promoted different specialized training packages... to encourage people to do more than just a bfr....
 
WannFly said:

i found this video very informative. i for one have a habit of answering the controller whenever they ask me to do something even if it is the most inappropriate time... gotto change that
Click to expand...

One thing worth pointing out is that 30% margin over stall is not just 1.3 times the indicated stall speed. The indicated stall speed must be converted to calibrated airspeed, multiplied by 1.3, and then converted back to indicated speed. In a 182, Vso=39kts (indicated), but 1.3Vso=62kts (indicated). If you simply multiply 39 *1.3 you will get 51 knots which is 11 kts slower, and you will have a much smaller margin than 30%. This is also one of the reasons why the airspeed falls off quicker at slower speeds.
 
seems like the concept of awareness of your defined maneuvering speed makes a lot of sense
I'm not so sure I loved the focus and airlines so much....but I love the idea of getting outside of the PTS box

Not long after the flightchops video was published, my CFI I'm flying with to get my rusty pilot BFR and checkout told me he was trying something new...and was changing up his approach a bit, but didn't elaborate on what exactly. Regardless he asked and I said SURE, I'm good with it. I asked him our next flight and he confirmed it was as a result to this video. Unfortunately that was just before this wuhan flu outbreak so I haven't been back up for more....and I'm not sure how much of it he's ended up using.
 
I've always thought some of the required PTS maneuvers are silly for anything other than demonstration and simple feel practice.
on every review...CFI - "ok, do you remember Turns Around A Point?"
Me..."well of course" I'm thinking yeah, the wind pushes the circle out of round so bank angle changes as I go around, no problem....but to properly 'set it up by the book', do I enter the turn upwind, downwind, crosswind?...ugh....does any of that even matter really.
 
I always appreciated when CFIs would show me something *new* on a Flight Review. Something that wasn't a PTS maneuver, but was useful in advancing my airmanship.

Most pilots are trapped in their own slice of aviation, and trapped doing things "how they're done" in those little slices of the aviation world. Most of us don't get out and do the other types of flying, and don't have the benefit of adding those other ways of operating to our "bucket of experience".

I also don't particularly like bringing too much 121 airline stuff into the GA realm, but there are plenty of good reasons to try something new from that realm and see if it benefits the GA world.
 
Brad W said:
I've always thought some of the required PTS maneuvers are silly for anything other than demonstration and simple feel practice.
on every review...CFI - "ok, do you remember Turns Around A Point?"
Me..."well of course" I'm thinking yeah, the wind pushes the circle out of round so bank angle changes as I go around, no problem....but to properly 'set it up by the book', do I enter the turn upwind, downwind, crosswind?...ugh....does any of that even matter really.
Click to expand...
Do you ever take aerial photos?
 
I still don't understand all this hype about jamming the nose down ASAP after an engine failure on climb out. This guy Dan Gryder in the video here is the dude who, with no facts, pompously attributed last year's Franklin Augustus Pitts S-2B crash in New Orleans to his failure to get the nose down on climbout after his assumed engine failure then and there. He assumed he just stalled/spun right out of the climb because he didn't get the nose down right away... as if that's the typical LOC scenario. It's not. According to NTSB info that came out later, Franklin had already made his way to downwind and crashed attempting to maneuver back to the runway he took off from. Jamming the nose down immediately after the engine quits on climb out does not address the energy issues associated with folks attempting to turn/maneuver to a landing spot under stress.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Do you ever take aerial photos?
Click to expand...
I could be missing your point....but I think maybe I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to say that practicing turns around a point (or s turns, etc.) weren't beneficial...... that wasn't my point. it's the minutia with most of those maneuvers......
so turns around a point....
I could enter the circle from any tangent.....can see the result from bad technique....can use it to increase my seat of the pants stick and rudder finesse....a couple turns...yep, my memory is refreshed on it.....nope. Gotta remember to enter the maneuver down wind to get it "correct". Why does that matter? The whole point is for me to understand how to track a course anyway.
 
whifferdill said:
I still don't understand all this hype about jamming the nose down ASAP after an engine failure on climb out. This guy Dan Gryder in the video here is the dude who, with no facts, pompously attributed last year's Franklin Augustus Pitts S-2B crash in New Orleans to his failure to get the nose down on climbout after his assumed engine failure then and there. He assumed he just stalled/spun right out of the climb because he didn't get the nose down right away... as if that's the typical LOC scenario. It's not. According to NTSB info that came out later, Franklin had already made his way to downwind and crashed attempting to maneuver back to the runway he took off from. Jamming the nose down immediately after the engine quits on climb out does not address the energy issues associated with folks attempting to turn/maneuver to a landing spot under stress.
Click to expand...

Gryder runs his mouth quite a lot on social media, and often without knowing any of the actual facts.

That being said, his unformed analysis of that one incident is not a reason to immediately discount what he's saying overall in that video.
 
whifferdill said:
I still don't understand all this hype about jamming the nose down ASAP after an engine failure on climb out. This guy Dan Gryder in the video here is the dude who, with no facts, pompously attributed last year's Franklin Augustus Pitts S-2B crash in New Orleans to his failure to get the nose down on climbout after his assumed engine failure then and there. He assumed he just stalled/spun right out of the climb because he didn't get the nose down right away... as if that's the typical LOC scenario. It's not. According to NTSB info that came out later, Franklin had already made his way to downwind and crashed attempting to maneuver back to the runway he took off from. Jamming the nose down immediately after the engine quits on climb out does not address the energy issues associated with folks attempting to turn/maneuver to a landing spot under stress.
Click to expand...

During training my CFI pulled the power on climb out more than once... and to me, when you're already at 65-75 kts and lose power, you don't have much time to get the nose over before you lose speed quickly, and if you're close to the ground, well...
6 seconds?
IMO, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging immediate response and proper technique.
 
sarangan said:
One thing worth pointing out is that 30% margin over stall is not just 1.3 times the indicated stall speed. The indicated stall speed must be converted to calibrated airspeed, multiplied by 1.3, and then converted back to indicated speed. In a 182, Vso=39kts (indicated), but 1.3Vso=62kts (indicated). If you simply multiply 39 *1.3 you will get 51 knots which is 11 kts slower, and you will have a much smaller margin than 30%. This is also one of the reasons why the airspeed falls off quicker at slower speeds.
Click to expand...

I think they mentioned 1.404 x stall speed in clean configuration
 
Hacker said:
Gryder runs his mouth quite a lot on social media, and often without knowing any of the actual facts.

That being said, his unformed analysis of that one incident is not a reason to immediately discount what he's saying overall in that video.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. He's often got a lot of good information, especially in LOC cases. He does like to post about these cases the same day the accident happens and leaves a lot of people sore.
He also can't seem to shut up about other things. He recently posted that AirVenture will be canceled and he has it from a high authority that the decision has already been made... just running his mouth.
 
Skyrys62 said:
During training my CFI pulled the power on climb out more than once... and to me, when you're already at 65-75 kts and lose power, you don't have much time to get the nose over before you lose speed quickly, and if you're close to the ground, well...
6 seconds?
IMO, I don't see anything wrong with encouraging immediate response and proper technique.
Click to expand...

Airplanes are not like cars going uphill when you lose power. You're only gonna lose significant airspeed and near a stall if you fight the airplane's natural tendency to seek the airspeed it's trimmed for by momentarily trying to maintain your climb pitch attitude after the engine has quit. Next time you're trimmed for your climbout speed (with some altitude), pull power off and let go of the controls. What happens to your airspeed? You will only lose speed if you ADD a pull back after losing power.

Even most high powered aerobatic airplanes planes don't climb steeply enough for an engine failure on climb out to turn into much other than a parabolic arc back toward the ground at around the airspeed we're trimmed for. You don't have to jam the stick forward ASAP in this situation, just don't pull back. Just try to relax and let the nose naturally come down..help it down if you want, but it's not as critical as folks make it out to be. Most folks get into trouble with hasty turns and maneuvering to a landing spot, not simply losing control on climbout.

Airspeed/G-load awareness with respect to maneuvering is key, but simply shoving the nose down ASAP doesn't address the bigger picture. Dan has not come up with some sort of magic bullet as he seems to self-proclaim.
 
Brad W said:
I could be missing your point....but I think maybe I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean to say that practicing turns around a point (or s turns, etc.) weren't beneficial...... that wasn't my point. it's the minutia with most of those maneuvers......
so turns around a point....
I could enter the circle from any tangent.....can see the result from bad technique....can use it to increase my seat of the pants stick and rudder finesse....a couple turns...yep, my memory is refreshed on it.....nope. Gotta remember to enter the maneuver down wind to get it "correct". Why does that matter? The whole point is for me to understand how to track a course anyway.
Click to expand...
I agree that “proper entry” shouldn’t be the emphasis, but understanding WHY entering downwind is better than other points is worthwhile.
 
Why just assume push nose down? Isn't it all about getting to max glide speed? Which could be nose up, down, or whatever?
 
whifferdill said:
Airplanes are not like cars going uphill when you lose power. You're only gonna lose significant airspeed and near a stall if you fight the airplane's natural tendency to seek the airspeed it's trimmed for by momentarily trying to maintain your climb pitch attitude after the engine has quit. Next time you're trimmed for your climbout speed (with some altitude), pull power off and let go of the controls. What happens to your airspeed? You will only lose speed if you ADD a pull back after losing power.

Even most high powered aerobatic airplanes planes don't climb steeply enough for an engine failure on climb out to turn into much other than a parabolic arc back toward the ground at around the airspeed we're trimmed for. You don't have to jam the stick forward ASAP in this situation, just don't pull back. Just try to relax and let the nose naturally come down..help it down if you want, but it's not as critical as folks make it out to be. Most folks get into trouble with hasty turns and maneuvering to a landing spot, not simply losing control on climbout.

Airspeed/G-load awareness with respect to maneuvering is key, but simply shoving the nose down ASAP doesn't address the bigger picture. Dan has not come up with some sort of magic bullet as he seems to self-proclaim.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Doing nothing should allow the airplane seek the proper pitch to maintain airspeed. But how quickly it will do this (settling time) depends on the aircraft stability. At low altitude you may not have much time, so the technique of lowering the nose immediately does have some merit. However, I suspect most GA airplane have a very short settling time.
 
WannFly said:
I for one have a habit of answering the controller whenever they ask me to do something even if it is the most inappropriate time... gotto change that
Click to expand...

So true. My last flight, tower at ENW said something to me while I was opposite numbers on downwind, I responded and of course got distracted, missed my turn to base and effed up my whole landing. My instructor said "fly first, talk later, unless it's a crucial emergency". They weren't even saying anything that important, they just cleared me for the option and I easily could have just clicked twice and then focused on landing the plane.
 
yeah, also commonly easy to just read back 'everything' they say without filtering it. Could be a distraction but certainly congests the freq.
 
Fly. Make sure you’re going where you want to. Then talk

I don’t always do that.

My problems is the cockpit. Adjusting the garmim 430 for a bit, look out the window and I’m off altitude and heading. Got to get better on my cadence of looking down for only a brief moment
 
Aviate....navigate....communicate....automate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top