Some Questions about PA28

Tobias Göller

Tobias Göller

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 22, 2022
Messages
125
Display Name
Display name:
SCNR
Hi All,

Not sure if this is at the right place here... if not don't hesitate to delete.

I'm thinking about buying a PA28-151, 1974. It has the spring loaded ailerons (which is a bit weird at first... but actually probably nothing to write home about).

Total Time: Around 4600h at 2300 landings. I have flown the aircraft several times and know the owners (who are really nice people)....

Engine is an Lycoming O320-E3D. Last Major Engine Overhaul was in 12/2015, time since then is about 400h. It hasn't been zeroed so the engine has about 650h left. Propeller is a fixed pitch that will need a service in 1-2 years

All ADs have been complied with. Oil Analysis is (very) good, Oil Consumption is about 0.1QT/10h.

Vacuum Pump and Aritificial Horizon have been replaced ~3 years (200h) ago.

It's been always hanaged, always stayed at the same homebase here (that features a grass rwy).

It comes with a fresh annual (and a prebuy inspection is going to be done at the same time).

Avionics is a GNS530W (with current databases), A King 8.25 Radio, Garmin Transponder, King DME, Fuel Flow and the original (working) Piper Autocontrol II. Audio Panel is fresh (Garmin with BT). The Arcraft is IFR certified.

Interior is nothing to write home about but it's not torn or anything. Seats have been redone some 10 years ago... actually looks nice (but it's not posh, for sure).

Now... my question. Are there any red flags from your point of view that I should be aware of (either with the aircraft or the personal situation I'm in since I know the owners)?

I do really like this aircraft because it's spacious, doesn't use that much fuel (33l/h). It's not a rocket but that's not the point... what I am looking for is a reliable little aircraft that doesn't eat up all my money so I can still fly other types (like e.g. a PA18).

I have a PPL, about 1200h, a Night Rating, Sailplane Tow Rating and am flying ~170h/year (one could argue: No wonder if you always fly those slow aircrafts :) )

Do you see any red flags? Is there anything I should be made aware of (technical / personal)?

Thanks
Tobias

P.S: Pricewise it's a good part below what you seen on planecheck or controller. Not unrealistically low but not at a point where you're going to start haggling as well. For the amount asked you'll only find 60s hershey-bar vfr only aircrafts with run-down engines ATM.
 
Tobias Göller said:
It comes with a fresh annual
Click to expand...
No red flags but "comes with a fresh annual" is kind of a marketing gimmick just fyi. Most owners will not splurge above and beyond during the annual for a plane they're about to sell... I'd still recommend a thorough pre-buy or at a minimum have a chance to review whatever discrepancy list from the annual

Don't let emotions dictate your purchase :) it's hard with planes we know and have flown though, I get it.

Otherwise enjoy! I actually really enjoy the spring loaded yokes. Went from hating them to loving them. We've got a -151 on the club here that I love, taking it up this Friday actually
 
Tobias Göller said:
Do you see any red flags? Is there anything I should be made aware of (technical / personal)?
Click to expand...
What does the mechanic you will use to maintain it and comply with the next annual think about the aircraft? He's the one who will let you know about any red flags now or let you know in a year.;)
 
Hi Tantalum,

Tantalum said:
No red flags but "comes with a fresh annual" is kind of a marketing gimmick just fyi. Most owners will not splurge above and beyond during the annual for a plane they're about to sell... I'd still recommend a thorough pre-buy or at a minimum have a chance to review whatever discrepancy list from the annual

Don't let emotions dictate your purchase :) it's hard with planes we know and have flown though, I get it.

Otherwise enjoy! I actually really enjoy the spring loaded yokes. Went from hating them to loving them. We've got a -151 on the club here that I love, taking it up this Friday actually
Click to expand...

Thanks. As it happens the annual is every year around that time (+/- one month). The current owners told me they don't want a decision now and want to wait for the outcome of the PB and the annual - after that I can decide whether or not I want the acft. If not... it's going up for sale at the "notorious places" (probably at a higher price). The "comes with a fresh annual" in that case means it's included in the purchase price (as is the insurance until Oct 2023).

I will have someone there who knows that type of aircraft... he did some checks on this airframe in the past and doesn't see issues - but he'll look into it once more.

Tobias
 
Hi

Bell206 said:
What does the mechanic you will use to maintain it and comply with the next annual think about the aircraft? He's the one who will let you know about any red flags now or let you know in a year.;)
Click to expand...

He's not a very close friend but we know each other and did have some beers together. I help him at times with his IT Nightmare (and refuse to invoice him as it's not really a big thing... I run the IT for our club).

But I trust him and he trusts me, I think. When I approached him about this particular aircraft he told me "Buying an aircraft is not a sensible thing to do at all. But if yo buy one, a PA28 is probably the most sensible thing you can do at that point. And the one you're looking at is a good one. If this is what you're looking for and it fits your needs: Go for it"

He wanted help me out once when I needed an aircraft and the one from the club was not serviceable... he just handed me his keys and told me: "If you break it it's insured to a higher level than it's actually worth. So, just make sure you survive".

Tobias

P.S: I didn't take his aircraft that day, though :)
 
Hi

Hang 4 said:
Agreed, I have a 180, very nice plane and your's sounds like a good deal.
Click to expand...

That's my main concern: It actually sounds too good to be true. I have flown this particular aircraft this summer for 30+ hours... no issues.

The owners were talking quite some time about selling it. Now... they decided it's time and approached me first... maybe because they felt I treated it well. Maybe because we became friends over the years. Maybe other reasons... I don't know for sure. Maybe a combination of all of the mentioned.

Tobias
 
By the way, Tobias - would you be flying it privately yourself or keeping it in some kind of club or school. Sounds like maybe right now it's being used as a rental? Just something to think about if you plan to offset your costs by putting it in the club, or, if you are going to be okay with letting others fly your baby.
 
You may want to check out the status of AD 98 02 08. This pertains to cracked Crankshafts in engines of 160 hp or higher.

Depending on the overhaul date and other details it is possible you could have an engine that is one relatively quick inspection away from big a big money outlay.
If it still has the Recurrent Inspection do it at purchase even if not due yet.

The logs should tell the tale. Not very likely if o/h was in 2015 but odd things happen.
 
Last edited:
Have a prepurchase inspection done by someone who hasn't annualed the ship. There is the mother of all ADs on the wing spar, but that aircraft may not fall under it. Nothing wrong with a Cherokee and lots right with it, only about 1200 parts in the whole airframe (my Mooney has thousands).
 
Magman said:
You may want to check out the status of AD 98 02 08. This pertains to cracked Crankshafts in engines of 160 hp or higher.
Click to expand...
It's a 151, AD is 160 HP and up. Doesn't apply.
 
Tobias Göller said:
Engine is an Lycoming O320-E3D. Last Major Engine Overhaul was in 12/2015, time since then is about 400h. It hasn't been zeroed so the engine has about 650h left.
Click to expand...
?? What is driving the "650h left"?

Oil Consumption is about 0.1QT/10h.
Click to expand...
Wow. Really? I don't know much about engines, but this seems surprisingly low to me.

Good luck with your experience! Plane ownership has been great for me.
 
Quotes from the text of the AD - written in FAA speak that allows for multiple interpretations of the same sentence; (my bold for emphasis)
  • The total number of engines impacted worldwide is 16,357 (11,000, 160 hp, 320 series; and 5,357, 360 Series)
  • The FAA has taken into consideration service history and has limited the applicability of this AD to engines with 160 hp or greater.
  • Applicability: Textron Lycoming 320 series limited to 160 horsepower, and 360 series, four cylinder reciprocating engines with fixed pitch propellers
The last bullet and the engine model list, which includes the OP's engine, leave some wiggle room for different conclusions. Specifically, "limited to" could be inferred to mean up to 160, which would include the 150. The first two bullets seem to imply it's only 160 hp. IIRC, there was a way to modify the 150 to 160hp in which case the AD would apply if modified that to 160.
 
The aircraft would remain a PA 28-151 even if the engine was modified.

PID ( Painted Inside Diameter) is a terminating action IF it was accomplished at overhaul. While it likely was done then ; I don’t see where the AD specifies thst it MUST be accomplished. Perhaps the folks doing the o/h did not have the facilities to do so?

A big difference between an Annual and a Pre-buy is the ADs. With an Annual the focus is are they in compliance AT THAT TIME. With a PB you are looking at the effect of the AD down the road.

I once Annualed an Arrow with 10 hrs to go till the case had to be split and 30 days till a Prop o/h per ADs. Unusual but both Buyer and Seller were aware. It isn’t always that way though. Many IAs will review the status of all ADs when gaining an aircraft. Surprises?
 
Hi
Magman said:
You may want to check out the status of AD 98 02 08. This pertains to cracked Crankshafts in engines of 160 hp or higher.

Depending on the overhaul date and other details it is possible you could have an engine that is one relatively quick inspection away from big a big money outlay.
If it still has the Recurrent Inspection do it at purchase even if not due yet.

The logs should tell the tale. Not very likely if o/h was in 2015 but odd things happen.
Click to expand...

It's a 150HP... so AFAIU it doesn't apply.

Tobias
 
Hi,

mondtster said:
Because it could have been converted to 160hp.
Click to expand...

No, it hasn't. It's really not a powerful aircraft... but on good days you'll get 108kts out of it. On not so good days it's more like 100kts

Tobias
 
Hi,

Jim_R said:
?? What is driving the "650h left"?
Click to expand...

The engine now has 1350ish hours. It was overhauled in 12/2015 but wasn't zeroed. Also, Time-Wise it's due in ~5 years (12 years). Why? I will find out tomorrow.

I could fly it past the 2000h mark on condition but am not sure I want to do that at the moment (i.e. will decide once it's time is nearing 2000h. At the moment I plan on a new (or rebuilt) engine in ~5 years (which will/might set me back ~40-50k)

Jim_R said:
Wow. Really? I don't know much about engines, but this seems surprisingly low to me.

Good luck with your experience! Plane ownership has been great for me.
Click to expand...

Thanks. It *is* very low on oil. Oil samples have been done every 50h - and it really looks like it's a sound engine.

Tobias
 
Hi Tantalum,

Tantalum said:
By the way, Tobias - would you be flying it privately yourself or keeping it in some kind of club or school. Sounds like maybe right now it's being used as a rental? Just something to think about if you plan to offset your costs by putting it in the club, or, if you are going to be okay with letting others fly your baby.
Click to expand...

It is being flown by four people at the moment. One will retire his license at the end of this year - which might be, among other things like age, the reason the owners are selling it. I will see them tomorrow to check the paperwork - I will know more then for sure.

I would let those who have been flying it so far keep flying it out of several reasons:
a) I have seen that they care for the aircraft as if it was theirs. So no rough handling.
b) Every hour they fly (about 20-40 each year) will bring my costs down a bit.

which leads to:
c) I fly other aircrafts as well - and I would like to keep it that way - especially with the PA18 and MX7.

As I am not a millionaire (and have family and kids) I want to have this as reasonable as can be. Do note: My Wife and Kids did not freeze in shock when I told them I'm considering buying it. Actually, my wife (and daughter) came up with "... what if you would buy it...?" when I told them it's going to be sold. So... I consider myself as a lucky guy!

I do about 150-200h per year. Depends a bit on the weather & runway conditions here (grass field). I want the aircraft to fly 80 - 100h per annum so I won't have any engine corrosion issues. It's a FLYING machine. it should fly. If I wanted to have something for the hangar to look good I could get a mock-up :)

In addition: I as of today consider buying it together with a friend (who happens to be an A&P). When I told him what I was considering he was like: "Count me in if you like"

So, loads of options.

Tobias
 
By the way, guys: You're amazing! Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and thoughts with me! Highly appreciated!
 
Tobias Göller said:
PA28-151, 1974. It has the spring loaded ailerons (which is a bit weird at first... but actually probably nothing to write home about).
Click to expand...

The Frise ailerons on the 1974 and 1975 Warrior made for much more pleasant handling in roll. You can spot them by the large hinge arms under the ailerons. In 1976 Piper changed to plain piano hinges on the ailerons -- cheaper to build, but not as responsive.

Where are you located?
 
Borescope the engine. If the valves and cylinders look good, I would buy it.

Depending on how many hours on the last oil change, change the oil and cut the filter. If there are screens, pull them and look. Inspect the media, spread it apart and look in the folds. You may want to solvent rinse the media. Go over any chunks with a magnet. The (non-magnetic carbon) is not an issue. Magnetic particles are. Shiny non-magnetic particles will likely be aluminum, and you may need to send them out for spectroscopic analysis. Obviously, the weight and volume of non-carbon particles is a piece of the picture. I think Lyc allows 1/4 teaspoon of metal. So it is not essential that there be no metal in the filter, just that it be no more than a minimal quantity. If you can read part numbers on the chunks, that's probably a no-go.

The oil analysis gives you a piece of the puzzle. The screen/media inspection gives you another. Compressions give you another, and the borescope is the final piece.

You will have a good understanding of the state of your engine. If all that checks out, buy it and fly it.
 
Last edited:
12 years and 2000 hours is not regulatory. We fly our engines "on condition" every time we fly.
I ran my last O-320 (a factory reman) to 18 years and 2925 hours.
 
Domenick said:
12 years and 2000 hours is not regulatory. We fly our engines "on condition" every time we fly.
I ran my last O-320 (a factory reman) to 18 years and 2925 hours.
Click to expand...
Think Tobias in in Europe. Are there are more limitations on going past TBO?
 
Hang 4 said:
Think Tobias in in Europe. Are there are more limitations on going past TBO?
Click to expand...
In general, if the aircraft is private and not flown in a "commercial" environment you can go on condition with the engine and prop. It used to be dependent on what country you operated as well, however, the latest EASA rule on the subject supposedly allows the same rules for all member countries. Any aircraft operated commercially requires CAA/EASA approvals to extend the overhaul periods similar to the US.
 
Hi,

Hang 4 said:
Think Tobias in in Europe. Are there are more limitations on going past TBO?
Click to expand...

Yes I am located in Europe. Our local FAA says: 36 years at max on an engine - then you *have* to overhaul it.

Which is not a problem since the last major overhaul (with complete disassemlby) was in 12/2015.

Tobias
 
Hi,

LesGawlik said:
Borescope the engine. If the valves and cylinders look good, I would buy it.

Depending on how many hours on the last oil change, change the oil and cut the filter. If there are screens, pull them and look. Inspect the media, spread it apart and look in the folds. You may want to solvent rinse the media. Go over any chunks with a magnet. The (non-magnetic carbon) is not an issue. Magnetic particles are. Shiny non-magnetic particles will likely be aluminum, and you may need to send them out for spectroscopic analysis. Obviously, the weight and volume of non-carbon particles is a piece of the picture. I think Lyc allows 1/4 teaspoon of metal. So it is not essential that there be no metal in the filter, just that it be no more than a minimal quantity. If you can read part numbers on the chunks, that's probably a no-go.

The oil analysis gives you a piece of the puzzle. The screen/media inspection gives you another. Compressions give you another, and the borescope is the final piece.

You will have a good understanding of the state of your engine. If all that checks out, buy it and fly it.
Click to expand...

Thanks... that's exactly the plan right now. Looked at the books and no red flags turned up so far.

I will have to address two things within the next 100 hours:
- Propeller has ~100h left
- Magnetos: are at ~80h left (but can be run on condition).

Last oil service has been ~35 hours ago - looked good. Compression ratio is quite good on all cylinders (>72 on all with very similar readings).

One thing... the fist logbook is missing (out of 8). Not superb, but that's the one from 1974-1976 - so 46 years ago... I do not think that's of a too big concern.

The owner offered me to exchange the prop with one of his spares while the one that's on the plane is at the overhaul facility.

I think I will do the propeller first (fixed pitch, doesn't cost that much to service) and then the magnetos. I am thinking whether or not I should replace one of the magnetos with a surefly so I have one magneto as spare... buys me (flight) time in case something happens.

So... first year maintenance addon costs would be:
- Propeller service: 1500 bucks
- Magneto service: 1500 bucks
- Surefly: 3000 bucks

6k addon (if I do the surefly... )

Tobias
 
Hi
Pilawt said:
The Frise ailerons on the 1974 and 1975 Warrior made for much more pleasant handling in roll. You can spot them by the large hinge arms under the ailerons. In 1976 Piper changed to plain piano hinges on the ailerons -- cheaper to build, but not as responsive.

Where are you located?
Click to expand...
Thanks for the information. Yes, it's the model with the large hinges... regarding roll rate... it's not as if it's a roll-monster but the handling is very balanced, indeed.

I am located in central europe...

Tobias
 
I did most of my primary training in a PA28151. Nice aircraft for just boring holes or taking someone else along on a x-country. This sounds like a good first aircraft. That said I would consider a PA282181 if I was in the Cherokee market.

Tobias Göller said:
Engine is an Lycoming O320-E3D. Last Major Engine Overhaul was in 12/2015, time since then is about 400h. It hasn't been zeroed so the engine has about 650h left. Propeller is a fixed pitch that will need a service in 1-2 years
Click to expand...

I'm a little confused by this statement. I understand you're in a different country so different regulations, etc. Here if you have a major overhaul you're good for another 2,000 hrs and/or 12 years (and no time limit if you're not performing commercial ops). Was the engine IRAN instead of overhauled?
 
And you can get an STC to run mogas in it, if that sort of thing applies in the EU.
 
Tobias Göller said:
Hi,



Thanks... that's exactly the plan right now. Looked at the books and no red flags turned up so far.

I will have to address two things within the next 100 hours:
- Propeller has ~100h left
- Magnetos: are at ~80h left (but can be run on condition).

Last oil service has been ~35 hours ago - looked good. Compression ratio is quite good on all cylinders (>72 on all with very similar readings).

One thing... the fist logbook is missing (out of 8). Not superb, but that's the one from 1974-1976 - so 46 years ago... I do not think that's of a too big concern.

The owner offered me to exchange the prop with one of his spares while the one that's on the plane is at the overhaul facility.

I think I will do the propeller first (fixed pitch, doesn't cost that much to service) and then the magnetos. I am thinking whether or not I should replace one of the magnetos with a surefly so I have one magneto as spare... buys me (flight) time in case something happens.

So... first year maintenance addon costs would be:
- Propeller service: 1500 bucks
- Magneto service: 1500 bucks
- Surefly: 3000 bucks

6k addon (if I do the surefly... )

Tobias
Click to expand...
Doing the prop is no big deal. Do it because it's on the list of things to do, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it provided that it looks with nothing but minor defects.

At 35 hours, you could change the oil. This is the that for my climate I go from straight weight to multi vis anyway.

The missing log book is a bargaining chip, but would be irrelevant to my consideration. You can see if the airframe is straight. If so, there's likely nothing in that logbook anyway.

Sounds like you're going all the right things. Good luck! Sounds like you have a winner.
 
I've been on the fence about the electronic mags, myself. Aging mags are a real concern, and at least one should be inspected or rebuilt. I don't know whether the electronic mags are worth it. In some installations the timing isn't variable, so you just have a mag that does not have points or condensers. Of course, you need bus voltage for the emag.

This is the way I explain airplane engines to non-pilots. If your lawnmower runs out of gas, or you choke it with grass or hit a stump, your lawnmower will stop. Sometimes, it won't start. But have you ever heard of a lawnmower just stopping while being used, short of one of those events? I haven't. Once started, lawnmowers will run and run and run. Airplane engines are similar. The ignition system is similar. I think the next iteration of emags will have a battery or some sort of temporary internal power if ship's power fails. Then maybe we could replace both.
 
The second plane I learned to fly was a PA-28. As you already know, they're simple, honest, reliable aircraft. I'd buy one in a minute. I wouldn't do the electronic ignition, though. Properly maintained, mags are great. I wouldn't change to electronic even if it were free.

Wish you best of luck, btw, sounds like a lot of fun for you and family.
 
I've had a Warrior II (-161) for over 20 years. It has four seats, but it's really a 2-person plane. I've head 4 people in it once. All of us were well under the FAA average American. To stay below MGW with full fuel, the 3 passengers were allowed 5 pounds of luggage. The pilot got 10. Our trip was planned for one night, but was extended to two. Got stuck in Hillsboro, OR where we stayed the night at a Red Lion and were treated to a Pit Bull convention the next day.

The point is, the -151, -161, and I would add the -181 are all 2-person planes. IMO, the first truly 4-person planes in the PA-28 line are the -235 and the Dakota (-236).
 
I have flown 4 people in a 180D. No luggage and not full fuel.

Warrior II was the 3 light plane I flew. I had a few hours in a C-172. Then did my Private in Grumman Tiger. I went to fly one day and the Tigers were all booked. The FBO person (who had been my instructor) said, just take the Warrior and handed me the keys. While he was pre-flighting, he came out and said, I guess I should ride around one pattern. So he did. That was my "checkout."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top