Solo Touch-n-Goes

Jackk said:
Seems the CFI was trying to overrule the judgement of the PIC
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The instructor and club are over riding the judgement of a student pilot. At 12 hours, I was not expected to be an expert on the less than full runway performance takeoff.
 
It was many moons ago, but I do not remember doing taxi backs. Lots and lots of touch and go’s. Lots of short/soft field take offs on the first departure of the day and lots of short field landings when going home. Lotsa go arounds including the you just touched down and gotta get outta there type. First time I ran across this we don’t do T&G’s thing was many moons later when I got back to flying after taking many years off. I can see the pros and cons of both sides of the argument.
 
For me, one of the big differences between a T&G and a go around is flap management. During a T&G once the wheels are down the full flaps are usually brought up completely very quickly (or to a take-off setting).

During a go around the flaps are brought up incrementally.
 
In my humble and oft-ignored opinion,....

If a student cannot yet be trusted to recognize when a bounced landing should necessitate a go-around, and execute that go-around safely, the student is not yet ready to solo.

If the student can be trusted to do the above, executing a TNG should not be a problem.
 
I totally understand not allowing T&Gs at some of the airports described here, especially the narrow, short strips with significant obstructions. It just surprised me how adamant some posters are that T&Gs are bad, even on runways without obstruction or other difficulty-boosting factors. My first solo was three T&Gs while my CFI watched, and my second was me at the airport by myself, doing T&Gs off the not-quite 3000' grass strip until sunset. Apparently, I should be amazed that I am still alive and never crashed the plane! :p ;)
 
SkyChaser said:
I totally understand not allowing T&Gs at some of the airports described here, especially the narrow, short strips with significant obstructions. It just surprised me how adamant some posters are that T&Gs are bad, even on runways without obstruction or other difficulty-boosting factors. My first solo was three T&Gs while my CFI watched, and my second was me at the airport by myself, doing T&Gs off the not-quite 3000' grass strip until sunset. Apparently, I should be amazed that I am still alive and never crashed the plane! :p ;)
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It’s clearly safer to teach a student how to do spins so I can…I mean, he can go up and do them solo for hours on end.
 
MauleSkinner said:
It’s clearly safer to teach a student how to do spins so I can…I mean, he can go up and do them solo for hours on end.
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I mean, in an appropriate airplane with appropriate training, people do that...but I'm curious. Are you saying that doing T&Gs for an hour or two is bad? I really liked doing T&Gs, because I found them very satisfying and they helped me really refine my landings and ability to control the plane precisely, but just because I liked doing them doesn't automatically mean it's a good thing!
 
SkyChaser said:
I mean, in an appropriate airplane with appropriate training, people do that...but I'm curious. Are you saying that doing T&Gs for an hour or two is bad? I really liked doing T&Gs, because I found them very satisfying and they helped me really refine my landings and ability to control the plane precisely, but just because I liked doing them doesn't automatically mean it's a good thing!
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I guess I should’ve added a ;)
 
SkyChaser said:
Why do some schools not allow solo touch-n-goes? I was reading the thread about the student who crashed while solo, and a poster mentioned that during dual lessons, the CFI would work the flaps for the touch-n-goes. That seems like a very dangerous practice, as in my mind, it would lead to the students not realizing and/or not remembering to do so if they had to go around on a solo flight, especially on an early solo flight. I am genuinely curious as to the reasoning behind this.
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Lots of ways to skin a cat. However I have observed two common paths of risk mitigation in schools.

one is to manage things for the student to ensure safety. The other is to teach students to do it themselves. The truth is all schools do both and there is a limit to what level of risk they will assume by allowing renters and students latitude in judgment. What varies is where the line falls.

I preferred teaching students to do it themselves. Took a little longer but I thought it was a better product in the end.
 
I learned to fly at a delta airport with a 6000' runway. I am pretty sure we did T&G from the beginning. After I soloed many days were spent in the pattern solo doing T&Gs. I added up my landings before my checkride...309! I bet 99% of them were T&Gs.

Then I went over to Sportys to get checked out in a 182, we were not allowed to do T&Gs. I thought that was weird and also noticed it took more time paying for taxi time and not flying time.

I do T&Gs almost every time I fly around town in my 172 still today to stay sharp. I find myself looking for the most X wind I can find now.

I keep my plane at a small airport with a 2800' long paved runway. I remember asking my instructor why we don't practice there one day. He said it was too short. BS There is a flight school at my airport with 4 planes that student pilots train in and they do T&Gs after the student pilot gets some time under their belt.

I have done countless T&Gs there now, some with just one wheel touching down like what was mentioned by others. I can get my plane back in the air in ground effects at 40KTs and have plenty of runway to fly in ground effects. Love doing that. I have music piped into my headset and have done 45 minute workouts doing T&Gs. I am only on the ground for a few seconds until I yank it back into the air in ground effect, tons of fun for me.
 
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I'm on my fourth club membership. The first three were based at KORL, a class D airport with a ~7,000 ft main runway.

The first club did not allow T&Gs in complex planes after 2 or 3 gear "collapses" in the Arrows. The CFI I was working with said it had more to do with maintenance than pilots after one of his commercial students had one. I have no idea of the truth. That club had no restrictions on T&Gs in the training aircraft (C-172s) and no restrictions on landing in grass. This club eventually went bankrupt-not due to gear collapses or grass strip landings.

Second club (which was one of the former club's instructors with 1 C-172 owned and 3 others leased back at various times) had no prohibitions on T&Gs nor landing sites. If it was a charted airport, we were allowed to land there. And do T&Gs if we so choose. Note there were no complex or even high performance planes in this club. This club folded when the owner/Chief Instructor was diagnosed with stage IV throat cancer. May he rest in peace-he was a good guy.

Third club had no restrictions on T&Gs but didn't allow landing on grass without prior permission of the club organizer/Chief Instructor. Also didn't allow landing at KCDK (Cedar Key) without prior permission after someone in the club landed there, had a mag issue, had to rent a car to drive back and had to pay for getting someone there to fix the plane and fly it home. They raised a squawk about it so Chief said "No more." When I called him and asked if I could take a plane over there he asked if I'd been there and understood that I was on hook to get the plane home even if there was an issue. I sad yes to both and no problem. Also no complex planes in this club. It had an assortment of Archers and C-172s with one short lived 182 and a ALarus two seat trainer. I left this club for one with serious traveling machines and a twin. It has since disbanded because both of the principals took airline jobs and no longer had time to run it.

Fourth club has no prohibitions on T&Gs except in the club twin. But everything else is fair game. We are based at KSFB (Sanford International) with an 11,000 ft. main runway, a 5,800 ft. parallel runway (usually used for pattern work) and a 3,500 ft. center runway used for little planes to take off and land (but not do pattern work - hey, it's in the center and would be awkward) often to save us a 2 mile taxi from the other little runway.

There are potentially many reasons for not using T&Gs but often insurance drives them. I think a certificated private pilot should be able to do T&Gs and capable of deciding when to NOT do them. Which also means that somewhere in the training they will reach those thresholds and the CFI should be able to determine when-that's their responsibility and job. But I also support the "your airplane, your rules" position.
 
SkyChaser said:
Why do some schools not allow solo touch-n-goes? I was reading the thread about the student who crashed while solo, and a poster mentioned that during dual lessons, the CFI would work the flaps for the touch-n-goes. That seems like a very dangerous practice, as in my mind, it would lead to the students not realizing and/or not remembering to do so if they had to go around on a solo flight, especially on an early solo flight. I am genuinely curious as to the reasoning behind this.
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I take off to go somewhere.

When I arrive, I land.

I sometimes do pattern circuits to meet FAA currency requirements, and they require full stops.

T&G does not simulate a real landing for the second touch down, as there is no transition from descending, flare, and ease it on the pavement.

One touch and go that I can remember, ATC vectored me to a right turn to the runway, without suitable altitude decreases. I thought that I could get down, extended full flaps, and did a full deflection rudder slip, pegged the VSI, and seemed to be winning. Rolled out of the slip at 100 feet, as there is the danger of unexpected nose down pitch with full flaps. Touched down nose wheel only half way down the runway, elected to go missed and announced to tower, flaps 20, full throttle, carb heat off and climbed out. I should have said "Not Able" on the original "Cleared to land".

The tower was not happy to hear from me. More than 5 minutes of vectoring to avoid inconveniencing an arriving and a departing commercial flight that needed the main runway. Another 4 or 5 minutes vectoring around to line up at a safe altitude to make the landing in a normal way. I do not recall any other T&G in 40 years of flying.

I do not keep a record of landings in my logs as the match the number of flights.

Opinions on T&G seems to be binary, but thanks, SkyChaser, for opening a very educational thread. Pilots who have not thought through this subject and have an open mind will benefit from adjusting their knowledge base.
 
geezer said:
I sometimes do pattern circuits to meet FAA currency requirements, and they require full stops.
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Just to clarify, Full stops are only required for certain types of currency, not all.
 
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geezer said:
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Opinions on T&G seems to be binary, but thanks, SkyChaser, for opening a very educational thread. Pilots who have not thought through this subject and have an open mind will benefit from adjusting their knowledge base.
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I really enjoy learning new things and seeing things new ways, so happy to be of service. :)

The rest of your post brought up an interesting question, though, for me. What is the definition of T&G for you? To me, a T&G is a normal approach, descent, flare, and touchdown after a normal pattern. When your wheels touch, either before or after your nosewheel touches the runway, you dump the flaps and advance full throttle and take off again immediately. Probably because I trained where the primary runway was only 4000' long, we never "skipped" down the runway (what my instructor called it when you do multiple "landings" from one approach).
 
luvflyin said:
It was many moons ago, but I do not remember doing taxi backs. Lots and lots of touch and go’s. Lots of short/soft field take offs on the first departure of the day and lots of short field landings when going home. Lotsa go arounds including the you just touched down and gotta get outta there type. First time I ran across this we don’t do T&G’s thing was many moons later when I got back to flying after taking many years off. I can see the pros and cons of both sides of the argument.
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Pretty similar story for me. I got my PPL 40 years ago in Italy, learning on a grass strip and doing an inordinate amount of T&Gs. That T&G mania continued and got even worse when I got my tailwheel endorsement. I stopped flying before the turn of the century, and only decided to go back last year. I had moved country, technology and regulations had changed a lot, so I thought I would rather get a fresh FAA PPL license from scratch. I did few hours with an instructor, then my second 'first' solo in a 172. The instructor stated no T&G allowed when solo, which was a safety restriction I could understand. Then it just happened that on my very first 'second solo' landing somebody lined up in front of me when I was on a very short final. I hate to think what could have happened if that was really my first solo and I didn't have practice of a million T&Gs and go around. Maybe T&Gs do have some value, after all...
 
Sifossifoco said:
Pretty similar story for me. I got my PPL 40 years ago in Italy, learning on a grass strip and doing an inordinate amount of T&Gs. That T&G mania continued and got even worse when I got my tailwheel endorsement. I stopped flying before the turn of the century, and only decided to go back last year. I had moved country, technology and regulations had changed a lot, so I thought I would rather get a fresh FAA PPL license from scratch. I did few hours with an instructor, then my second 'first' solo in a 172. The instructor stated no T&G allowed when solo, which was a safety restriction I could understand. Then it just happened that on my very first 'second solo' landing somebody lined up in front of me when I was on a very short final. I hate to think what could have happened if that was really my first solo and I didn't have practice of a million T&Gs and go around. Maybe T&Gs do have some value, after all...
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If you advanced the throttle before touch down, that was not a touch and go, it was a go around.
Planes unexpectedly entering the runway after another has landed is, fortunately rare.

Where in Italy did you fly? I was stationed in Vicenza for 15 months, and spent a bit of time at the joint civil and military airport.
 
geezer said:
If you advanced the throttle before touch down, that was not a touch and go, it was a go around.
Planes unexpectedly entering the runway after another has landed is, fortunately rare.

Where in Italy did you fly? I was stationed in Vicenza for 15 months, and spent a bit of time at the joint civil and military airport.
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My first airport was Salerno Pontecagnano (LIRI) down south, then I was based at Roma Urbe for many years.
I agree that it was a go around, but I can guarantee you that the practice with touch and go on the grass is helpful for going around too. Particularly T&Gs on a grass strip after the rain, that practically become a go around unless you really want to touch the mud every time :)
 
geezer said:
T&G does not simulate a real landing for the second touch down, as there is no transition from descending, flare, and ease it on the pavement.
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Wait, what?

Maybe our definition of touch and go is different, because when i do them, the only thing I do different from a full stop landing, is...I don't stop. All 3 wheels on the ground, keep rolling while trim gets readjusted, and everything goes forward.
 
When I was a newly minted pilot that learned in low wing I transitioned to high wing and that’s when touch and goes didn’t go as well nor helped one bit.

If there was plenty of runway there was time to think through the steps and ‘appreciate’ or learn from the landing. The plane could get to high speed taxi, then start the takeoff. Many times though, it simply was too rushed. Like the touch and go was an objective in and of itself, instead of a landing; pause; takeoff. I don’t do them much anymore. If I want three landings it’s more fun to hit two airports then return home.
 
TrueCourse said:
When I was a newly minted pilot that learned in low wing I transitioned to high wing and that’s when touch and goes didn’t go as well nor helped one bit.

If there was plenty of runway there was time to think through the steps and ‘appreciate’ or learn from the landing. The plane could get to high speed taxi, then start the takeoff. Many times though, it simply was too rushed. Like the touch and go was an objective in and of itself, instead of a landing; pause; takeoff. I don’t do them much anymore. If I want three landings it’s more fun to hit two airports then return home.
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So you’re saying low wings are better?
 
jsstevens said:
......Also didn't allow landing at KCDK (Cedar Key) without prior permission after someone in the club landed there, had a mag issue, had to rent a car to drive back and had to pay for getting someone there to fix the plane and fly it home. They raised a squawk about it so Chief said "No more." When I called him and asked if I could take a plane over there he asked if I'd been there and understood that I was on hook to get the plane home even if there was an issue. I sad yes to both and no problem. .....
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OK, I've got to ask... so I assume from you post this was an Orlando based club....
so the school didn't want to retrieve it from Cedar Key for a mechanical down.
I wonder...if you flew to say Saint Augustine instead...and had a mechanical down. Would you still be responsible to get it home if it broke?
that makes no sense to me.... that that sort of issue would be location based....

Anyway, I've noticed most schools around here have restrictions against Cedar Key....some require a checkout there, other I think just NO.
but it was because of the short runway with water at the end.... and apparently a rough surface as I recall. I've never flown in there, but I did drive it once in a car...(the road around the runway, not the runway).
 
I did one of those stop, clean up the plane, and take off events on runway 18, at DCA, Washington National.

Arriving from the SE, after curfew, called the tower and requested a landing, cleared to land my choice, and picked 18. Full stop 800 feet down the runway, took out the log book and made the entry, set takeoff trim, requested takeoff clearance from present position. Half way down the runway, at about 100 feet, requested left turn up the Annacostia River to CGS, and that was approved.

So, by some definitions, that was a touch and go. In case the nit pickers are worried, the time was about 4 AM, and I was in a Cessna 172, exempt from the curfew.

edited to add:
A mile of runway seems to go forever to a pilot whose log has more than half the takeoffs from less than half that,, and some under 2,000 feet.
 
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Brad W said:
OK, I've got to ask... so I assume from you post this was an Orlando based club....
so the school didn't want to retrieve it from Cedar Key for a mechanical down.
I wonder...if you flew to say Saint Augustine instead...and had a mechanical down. Would you still be responsible to get it home if it broke?
that makes no sense to me.... that that sort of issue would be location based....

Anyway, I've noticed most schools around here have restrictions against Cedar Key....some require a checkout there, other I think just NO.
but it was because of the short runway with water at the end.... and apparently a rough surface as I recall. I've never flown in there, but I did drive it once in a car...(the road around the runway, not the runway).
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Maybe due to no on-field repair facilities? In which case I'd assume they wouldn't want you landing anywhere without services?
 
Half Fast said:
So you’re saying low wings are better?
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I said, suggested, or implied no such thing :)

I will say it helped me understand that all airplane types don’t handle the same on the ground during takeoffs and landings.
 
Brad W said:
OK, I've got to ask... so I assume from you post this was an Orlando based club....
so the school didn't want to retrieve it from Cedar Key for a mechanical down.
I wonder...if you flew to say Saint Augustine instead...and had a mechanical down. Would you still be responsible to get it home if it broke?
that makes no sense to me.... that that sort of issue would be location based....

Anyway, I've noticed most schools around here have restrictions against Cedar Key....some require a checkout there, other I think just NO.
but it was because of the short runway with water at the end.... and apparently a rough surface as I recall. I've never flown in there, but I did drive it once in a car...(the road around the runway, not the runway).
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Yes, Orlando based. My take away, though not said explicitly, was he wanted to make sure you knew what you were getting into at Cedar Key. It’s a popular destination from here. Cool place, 1 hour flight in a trainer, 3-4 hour drive. The person who raised a stink just caused the policy change.

I flew to Cedar Key 3 or 4 times. Its 2,500 feet. Water at both ends but it’s at sea level. It’s no problem in a 172 with 2 aboard. In fact, the first time I went I was sitting on the deck of a seafood restaurant and watched a TBM doing T&Gs there the whole time we were lunching.
 
TrueCourse said:
When I was a newly minted pilot that learned in low wing I transitioned to high wing and that’s when touch and goes didn’t go as well nor helped one bit.

If there was plenty of runway there was time to think through the steps and ‘appreciate’ or learn from the landing. The plane could get to high speed taxi, then start the takeoff. Many times though, it simply was too rushed. Like the touch and go was an objective in and of itself, instead of a landing; pause; takeoff. I don’t do them much anymore. If I want three landings it’s more fun to hit two airports then return home.
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I'm curious how the high wing made TnG more challenging. Can you elaborate on that? I did my private training in high wing and transitioned to low wing later so I'm not sure what would be more challenging about the high wing. Was it the motorized flap?(it is kinda slow to retract)
 
Brad W said:
I've noticed most schools around here have restrictions against Cedar Key....some require a checkout there, other I think just NO.
but it was because of the short runway with water at the end.... and apparently a rough surface as I recall. I've never flown in there, but I did drive it once in a car...(the road around the runway, not the runway).
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I flew in there with @Salty back in December. It’s definitely a short runway, but I don’t recall it being unusually rough. Really just a place that you have to be on your numbers and it doesn’t surprise me that flight schools restrict students from landing there in rental aircraft, but it seems like a ‘checkout’ type thing would suffice. I dunno.
 
I'm curious how the high wing made TnG more challenging. Can you elaborate on that? I did my private training in high wing and transitioned to low wing later so I'm not sure what would be more challenging about the high wing. Was it the motorized flap?(it is kinda slow to retract)
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From the Piper to the Cessna 172 I found, particularly during cross wind landings, that the Cessna wasn’t as ‘stable’ as the Piper on the ground. The combination of differences in amount of control inputs, in ground effect, etc. I could land a PA28 in a strong crosswind and after touchdown have little doubt it was done flying. With the C172, it was not quite done yet, more sensitive to control inputs (or lack of). So, for me T&Gs were “busier” in the Cessna. Now, I don’t mind the differences.

Interesting part for someone doing the same (Piper PA28 to Cessna 172) is a check out in a 172 could take place on a nice day, then you discover later on when it’s a gusty crosswind that the CFI didn’t exactly inform you of everything to expect.
 
Reasons:

1. The student fails to master the elements of takeoffs and landings that touch and goes largely exclude.
2. Checklists may not be completed.
3. Crosswind and Propeller turning effects and exiting the runway risk is increased.
4. The airport bans touch and go operations.
5. Solo T&G operations do not provide time for the student to properly evaluate their performance on each landing and takeoff.



Most of this is eliminated with stop and go vs touch and go.
 
Clip4 said:
Reasons:

1. The student fails to master the elements of takeoffs and landings that touch and goes largely exclude.
2. Checklists may not be completed.
3. Crosswind and Propeller turning effects and exiting the runway risk is increased.
4. The airport bans touch and go operations.
5. Solo T&G operations do not provide time for the student to properly evaluate their performance on each landing and takeoff.



Most of this is eliminated with stop and go vs touch and go.
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1-3 should have been mastered pre-solo. If so, they’re not an impediment to solo T&Gs. If not, why is the student flying solo?

5 is true, but the counterpoint is the student gets less practice per hour. It would depend upon the student, and where they are in learning, whether reflection or repetition is more important.
 
Why do you not do any number of things that you might otherwise be capable of? Aviation is all about risk management. A lot of students have died over the years on balked touch and goes, and it’s a maneuver that isn’t required for anything. If a school wants to limit exposure by putting guidelines on touch and goes, that’s their prerogative.

If I want to tell a student to taxi back and give themselves time to think, that’s my prerogative as well.

A solo student is not a master of the airplane. They aren’t immune from mistakes. It’s perfectly reasonable to tell them to taxi back to limit risk. That doesn’t mean you don’t teach them how to do a go around or that they aren’t capable of doing a touch and go.

“Oh, you must be a terrible CFI.” There, I saved you the keyboard time.
 
Nobody is immune to mistakes, unfortunately, and as I am not a CFI, I do not feel qualified to make judgments about your judgment, but I doubt you're a terrible CFI.

Do you ever allow your students to do T&Gs? If so, when do you decide that they are capable of it and how? Do you think they are capable of performing them safely by the time you sign them off for their checkride?

I may coming at this "sideways", because I was certainly not a one-hour-solo-wonder, for various reasons, so I had a lot more experience when I soloed.
 
SkyChaser said:
Nobody is immune to mistakes, unfortunately, and as I am not a CFI, I do not feel qualified to make judgments about your judgment, but I doubt you're a terrible CFI.

Do you ever allow your students to do T&Gs? If so, when do you decide that they are capable of it and how? Do you think they are capable of performing them safely by the time you sign them off for their checkride?

I may coming at this "sideways", because I was certainly not a one-hour-solo-wonder, for various reasons, so I had a lot more experience when I soloed.
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I do them all the time with students and they know how to do them before they solo. After that, I decide based on the airport whether I want them to taxi back or not when solo. I don’t see it as a must-do maneuver every flight because they do pose an increased risk of bending something or worse. Mistakes happen with everyone, much more with students. I take that into account since I’m the one signing them off.
 
TrueCourse said:
Or it can be called a “balked landing” in some circles. You would be configured for landing and would treat it like a go around.
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Balked landing is very different from the way most touch and goes are done.
 
Bonchie said:
I do them all the time with students and they know how to do them before they solo. After that, I decide based on the airport whether I want them to taxi back or not when solo. I don’t see it as a must-do maneuver every flight because they do pose an increased risk of bending something or worse. Mistakes happen with everyone, much more with students. I take that into account since I’m the one signing them off.
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So you do and teach touch and goes to students? And you put limits on when the student can do them if needed? Not sure what the angst is about, just about everyone except those who say touch and goes are dangerous agrees with you here.
 
If a cfi has global rules, such as no T&G’s there’s probably a reason. It may be a good one or not - but it does mean they, or their boss believe all stu’s are created equal. That could be good, or bad for your learning curb.
 
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