Solar power

Salty said:
Somebody told me in Florida you can’t go off the grid if you have a meter, but it seems like you should be able to disconnect the house completely from the meter and it’s nobody’s business. Maybe that’s against the building code?
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In some places, yes. Some places will not allow you off the grid. Period.
 
Salty said:
Somebody told me in Florida you can’t go off the grid if you have a meter, but it seems like you should be able to disconnect the house completely from the meter and it’s nobody’s business. Maybe that’s against the building code?
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I was told by the rural Electric Co-op here in my little part of NM that I can go off grid, but they will still charge me 35 bucks a month because they have power to my property. If I stay connected to the grid they will buy back excess electricity, but at a very discounted price. They did not think my idea of charging them 36 bucks a month lease for having a pole on my property was very funny....
 
I helped build an off-grid solar system for youth and Scout camping. Produces 30 amps at 12 volts with multiple charging ports for USB and 12 volt and overhead lighting. If solar is connected to a grid, you have to have an electrician to do the installation and a bunch of permits. Off-grid is not that difficult. We are adding a pure sine wave inverter next week.
 
We’ve had a system on the south side of our hangar roof for about 6 years here in TX. It’s rated for 9.6kW and the most I’ve seen it generate is about 7.2 - by that’s what we were told. It’s hooked up via net metering and has produced 76.4mWh over its life, per the cool app they gave us. That’s ROUGHLY $7,600 since we net about 10 cents/kWh - for now.

Spring and fall we typically over-produce but not by much. When we’ve net-produced for the month they pay us about 5.5 cents for each excess kWh.

All this is about to change. They’re going to go with time-of-day (demand) pricing, which is understandable except that should apply to everyone, IMHO, of their stated objective is to actually shape behavior. They’re also planning to add a peak wattage fee - $5 per kW. That makes no sense to me. That should be REDUCED with solar but only solar customers will be charged. Overall it sure feels like they’re trying to discourage solar.

But we like what we have. In fact, with the proposed changes, we’re looking at adding a few panels to a small west-facing area if we can do so without adding another inverter, etc.

Incidentally our system has stickers on the boxes telling linemen about the system. That said, if the main power is off the system doesn’t have a voltage: if you turn off the breaker there’s no voltage across the leads. Pretty safe.
 
Does your hangar system use storage batteries? It sounds like you have more than enough panels. You could add utility power to charge batteries if needed. At the end of the year your utility expense would be next to nothing. In Bryan our utility doesn’t buy back power. We’ve considered adding panels and batteries but it doesn’t make sense given the utility rates in TX. I enjoy my off-grid system at the cabin.
 
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Stewartb said:
Does your hangar system use storage batteries?
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No - the interconnect route seemed like the most sensible route for our situation and I still think it is. Especially 6 years ago, the right amount of battery capacity would have been too expensive.

It just dawned on me - I guess I should also clarify: we live on an airpark and the panels on the hangar power our house.
 
Salty said:
Somebody told me in Florida you can’t go off the grid if you have a meter, but it seems like you should be able to disconnect the house completely from the meter and it’s nobody’s business. Maybe that’s against the building code?
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I'm not familiar with a building code that wouldn't permit it as long as you do the disconnect with a proper transfer switch. That might be a power utility requirement but I don't know how they would enforce it.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm not familiar with a building code that wouldn't permit it as long as you do the disconnect with a proper transfer switch. That might be a power utility requirement but I don't know how they would enforce it.
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There are some places that won't give a CO (certificate of occupancy) to a property that isn't on the grid. An exemption can be requested, but there's no guarantee. Other places are fine with it. It's a local jurisdiction thing most of the time rather than state or national. And many places go well beyond the national model codes.
 
wsuffa said:
There are some places that won't give a CO (certificate of occupancy) to a property that isn't on the grid. An exemption can be requested, but there's no guarantee. Other places are fine with it. It's a local jurisdiction thing most of the time rather than state or national. And many places go well beyond the national model codes.
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Yeah I think that is a zoning issue though. Same applies to other utility services, e.g. water and sewer agency hookups, which are generally mandatory when available.
 
FORANE said:
That's exactly the impression I got where I live.
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I just finished composing my third email to the point of contact for the issue. Per their stats, all Interconnect customers (solar and wind) make up 1.5% of their customers - yet we’re the only ones getting the change.

That peak wattage fee will be a real killer for us: June 2020-May2021 cost us about $1,000 total for electricity. Their rate calculator says it would cost us $1,300 under the new rates, of which $630 - nearly half - would be that $5/peak kW surcharge. We’d still be paying the per-kWh for those watts as well, so we’d be double-charged.

Hard not to believe this is trying to kill off solar and wind….
 
I sell solar panels for off grid applications for a living. I have them manufactured in Asia, and buy them wholesale.

Yet, I don’t have a single panel on my house, my office or my warehouse

why? The ROI isn’t there. By the time the panel has “paid” for itself, it has lost its ability to make electricity.
 
cowtowner said:
I sell solar panels for off grid applications for a living. I have them manufactured in Asia, and buy them wholesale.

Yet, I don’t have a single panel on my house, my office or my warehouse

why? The ROI isn’t there. By the time the panel has “paid” for itself, it has lost its ability to make electricity.
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The company I’m talking too claims a 25 year warrantee. BS?

I’m also interested in the continuity benefits. We lose power more than once a year in this area. After a hurricane it can be out for quite awhile.
 
Zeldman said:
I was told by the rural Electric Co-op here in my little part of NM that I can go off grid, but they will still charge me 35 bucks a month because they have power to my property. If I stay connected to the grid they will buy back excess electricity, but at a very discounted price. They did not think my idea of charging them 36 bucks a month lease for having a pole on my property was very funny....
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I've got a chain saw. Do you want that pole gone?
 
cowtowner said:
I sell solar panels for off grid applications for a living. I have them manufactured in Asia, and buy them wholesale.

Yet, I don’t have a single panel on my house, my office or my warehouse

why? The ROI isn’t there. By the time the panel has “paid” for itself, it has lost its ability to make electricity.
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True, but sometimes the ROI isn't the whole picture. But it is why onerous permitting and operating regulations effectively kill the idea.

I bet some of the folks in Texas that got Ercotted would be happy to have alternative energy sources, especially if they got whacked with surge rates. Or rural mountaintop property where the utility wants a few body parts and a first born to run power to the house/cabin. Those are examples of "not the whole picture".
 
Zeldman said:
I was told by the rural Electric Co-op here in my little part of NM that I can go off grid, but they will still charge me 35 bucks a month because they have power to my property. If I stay connected to the grid they will buy back excess electricity, but at a very discounted price. They did not think my idea of charging them 36 bucks a month lease for having a pole on my property was very funny....
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I know that sounds harsh, but it's called a 'standby charge.' In other words, if you have a connection to them, whether you use it or not, they are obligated to serve you electricity, and there is a cost associated with that. I know it sounds like I'm being an apologist to the utility but I did work for one as a staff engineer, and I know how that works. That same thing goes for whether it is electrical, water, sewer or gas.
 
cowtowner said:
I sell solar panels for off grid applications for a living. I have them manufactured in Asia, and buy them wholesale.

Yet, I don’t have a single panel on my house, my office or my warehouse

why? The ROI isn’t there. By the time the panel has “paid” for itself, it has lost its ability to make electricity.
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That is surprising.

The LG panels I’m most familiar with are guaranteed to be outputting 91% of their rated output after 25 Years.

For setups I’ve seen, the payback for panels with decent exposure in MN is between 8-12 years right now.

Either your state is doing what it can to de-emphasize solar, or you are sourcing a non competitive panel.

Tim
 
Sac Arrow said:
I know that sounds harsh, but it's called a 'standby charge.' In other words, if you have a connection to them, whether you use it or not, they are obligated to serve you electricity, and there is a cost associated with that. I know it sounds like I'm being an apologist to the utility but I did work for one as a staff engineer, and I know how that works. That same thing goes for whether it is electrical, water, sewer or gas.
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That only applies if you are connected. If you are not connected why am I getting a bill?

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
tspear said:
That only applies if you are connected. If you are not connected why am I getting a bill?

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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Got me on that one. Maybe they think you're connected?
 
bflynn said:
I've got a chain saw. Do you want that pole gone?
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I will be out of the house for about 5 hours this afternoon...

I see nothing, I don't know how long it has been gone...

:lol::lol:

The phone company also has some lines running across my property. They have been sagging more and more and are now about 9-10 feet off the ground and in the cedar bushes.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I know that sounds harsh, but it's called a 'standby charge.' In other words, if you have a connection to them, whether you use it or not, they are obligated to serve you electricity, and there is a cost associated with that. I know it sounds like I'm being an apologist to the utility but I did work for one as a staff engineer, and I know how that works. That same thing goes for whether it is electrical, water, sewer or gas.
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That is understandable. Maybe I should have put up enough panels to off set the charge and then gone ahead with off grid solar.

About 5 years ago the city gave notice about annexing this area. I pretty much told them not until the sewer and gas has been installed and I am hooked up to it, plus I get to keep my water well with water rights. I haven't heard back from the city since then. However there has been several houses (mobile) set up in the area so I figure it is only a matter of time before the city takes over.
 
tspear said:
Per @Zeldman he is being charged even off grid. Hence the whole pole discussion.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
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If you ditch the meter I'm 99% sure they can't charge you, if you have a meter, you have to pay the basic charges.
 
We have an off grid house with air conditioning and a pool. It's been an adventure for sure.

1) You don't want to do off grid unless you have no other choice. It's a very expensive way of having power
2) The panel ratings are optimistic (in our case, it's that we're at sea level (so lots of atmospheric loss) and right be the ocean (so plenty of afternoon clouds)). We consume 25-28kwh most days, peak 32-35. We have 10kw of panels in order to meet those requirements. *Way* more than the solar expert estimated would be necessary.
3) BATTERIES ARE CONSUMABLE. So in your budgeting process make sure you know when your batteries would likely need to be replaced and have that factored in.
4) In an off grid system the batteries are likely to be the single largest cost component.
5) Lead acid batteries require maintenance and you will dramatically shorten their life if you aren't doing so properly. Other technologies can have issues with heat. We picked lead acid because they are less heat sensitive and our house staff (with minimal formal education) can easily be trained on the maintenance.
 
I've been thinking about solar for a number of years, and in fact had the new shop spec'd to be able to support rooftop panels. In Ohio we put rooftop panels to heat the pool (direct water heat exchangers) and they worked fantastic. Added bonus: They improved comfort in the house significantly and reduced our electric bill hugely by removing a lot of the heat from the roof.

I'd like to put some solar on the roof of our shop, but there are a few problems I'm having. One, it seems like every solar company I've talked to is full of idiots and scammy to talk to. Two, Kansas will let you grid tie, but you can't sell back electricity beyond what you consume for the month. So if in one month you use 1000 kW-h and you produce 1500 kW-h, you just gave the power company 500 kW-h of electricity. Result is you need to undersize the system for it to make sense.

Like I said, I still want to do it. But I'd need to find the right person/company to do it.
 
Zeldman said:
Just curious, what do clouds have to do with solar.??
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When a cumulus cloud gets between your panel and the sun, your energy production goes down by 80% at a minimum. Cirrus clouds can reduce by 20-70% depending on thickness. So you have to size your solar farm to account for the amount of light that will actually make it to the panel.
 
Have you been down the Listeroid rabbit hole?


Ted said:
I've been thinking about solar for a number of years, and in fact had the new shop spec'd to be able to support rooftop panels. In Ohio we put rooftop panels to heat the pool (direct water heat exchangers) and they worked fantastic. Added bonus: They improved comfort in the house significantly and reduced our electric bill hugely by removing a lot of the heat from the roof.

I'd like to put some solar on the roof of our shop, but there are a few problems I'm having. One, it seems like every solar company I've talked to is full of idiots and scammy to talk to. Two, Kansas will let you grid tie, but you can't sell back electricity beyond what you consume for the month. So if in one month you use 1000 kW-h and you produce 1500 kW-h, you just gave the power company 500 kW-h of electricity. Result is you need to undersize the system for it to make sense.

Like I said, I still want to do it. But I'd need to find the right person/company to do it.
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Ted said:
...it seems like every solar company I've talked to is full of idiots and scammy to talk to.
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We had to threaten to call the police to get one guy out of our house. He was trying to make a sale no matter what and all we wanted was a quote. He tried to guilt us out at making him drive over. It was so unpleasant that we have avoided ever talking to a solar panel company again.
 
mcdewey said:
We had to threaten to call the police to get one guy out of our house. He was trying to make a sale no matter what and all we wanted was a quote. He tried to guilt us out at making him drive over. It was so unpleasant that we have avoided ever talking to a solar panel company again.
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There's one company in Missouri that I talked to. Wouldn't outright give me a quote, wanted a "consultation." The sales pitch started off with how their CEO is this great guy and "Doesn't this seem like a company you'd want to do business with?" "I'm an engineer, just give me the data and I'll figure it out from there." These guys won't stop calling me (fortunately I gave them my Google Voice number so now it doesn't even make my phone ring) and when I do actually talk to them, I say "Well this was simple. Your prices were too high before. If they haven't come down, then I'm not interested." Then they want to schedule a new consultation, to which the person shows up unprepared, goes downhill from there. Plus the general lying about "Well we're lobbying for better deals with the power companies so you really should just buy a bigger system now, it's coming!" Yeah ok.

When we did the solar roof panels for the pool in Ohio, we found a guy who was nice, honest, reasonable priced. He was a bit quirky (no surprise) but we'd use him again. Too bad he doesn't come to Kansas and didn't do the electric panels, only the water panels.
 
Ted said:
There's one company in Missouri that I talked to. Wouldn't outright give me a quote, wanted a "consultation." The sales pitch started off with how their CEO is this great guy and "Doesn't this seem like a company you'd want to do business with?" "I'm an engineer, just give me the data and I'll figure it out from there." These guys won't stop calling me (fortunately I gave them my Google Voice number so now it doesn't even make my phone ring) and when I do actually talk to them, I say "Well this was simple. Your prices were too high before. If they haven't come down, then I'm not interested." Then they want to schedule a new consultation, to which the person shows up unprepared, goes downhill from there. Plus the general lying about "Well we're lobbying for better deals with the power companies so you really should just buy a bigger system now, it's coming!" Yeah ok.

When we did the solar roof panels for the pool in Ohio, we found a guy who was nice, honest, reasonable priced. He was a bit quirky (no surprise) but we'd use him again. Too bad he doesn't come to Kansas and didn't do the electric panels, only the water panels.
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Panels don't look like too hard of a job for a talented DIYer. I almost went for it about 5 years ago, but decided against it. There are companies that will sell the panels and equipment, installing and hooking it up doesn't look particularly complicated. Personally, I would have gotten a permit, then got a knowledgeable electrician to go over it after I was done, plus I think our electric company would have wanted to inspect it too. All in all, it didn't seem that bad if you were ok working on a roof.
 
PaulS said:
Panels don't look like too hard of a job for a talented DIYer. I almost went for it about 5 years ago, but decided against it. There are companies that will sell the panels and equipment, installing and hooking it up doesn't look particularly complicated. Personally, I would have gotten a permit, then got a knowledgeable electrician to go over it after I was done, plus I think our electric company would have wanted to inspect it too. All in all, it didn't seem that bad if you were ok working on a roof.
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I agree that there's nothing particularly difficult about the work and the installation. Given the other projects I do, I'm sure I could accomplish it. I'm not a fan of working on the roof, and the 8:12 roof pitch we went for doesn't make that easier.

I'm also at a point where I've realized/decided I really don't enjoy house-related projects, and I have a limited amount of time to do projects in. So I've moved in the direction of letting other people do those more often while I focus my DIYing time on the projects I want to do. At least, that's what I've been doing for the past year and it's been going well.
 
From the total solar perspective I’ve always been surprised how well my panels charge my batteries on cloudy and rainy days. Most panels are made for 17v so they’re in the efficient output range in less than ideal conditions. We add MPPT controllers to convert the extra voltage into useful amperage for the good days.
 
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