So Much for German Efficiency

I take it then they won't be joining in on the fight against ISIS/ISIL/Daesh/ whatever they're calling themselves this week.
 
I wonder how different that is from much of Western Europe at the moment, though. It's fascinating, and bit disconcerting, how rapidly their militaries have shrunk in the last 20 years, and certainly when compared to the state of the continent 70 years ago.

Germany is a nation of 80 million with the world's 5th largest economy and would probably struggle to field 100 combat-ready aircraft. The US Marine Corps alone appears (on paper, from Wikipedia) to have a more formidable air force than Germany and maybe any other single European nation.
 
Remember that West Germany's military is limited in size and scope due to post WWII SOFA measures. Not sure what became of all the former East German military equipment. Probably went back to the Soviets after the reunification.
 
I imagine like most of Europe they don't feel the need to spend resources on the military and instead just rely on us for whenever there might be a real need.
 
KSMooniac said:
I imagine like most of Europe they don't feel the need to spend resources on the military and instead just rely on us for whenever there might be a real need.
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DING DING, we have a winner!!
Why would they spend money for defense when they know "Big Brother" will be there to bail them out?? They can use the money to create their more liberal/socialist state without fear of aggression from foreign countries or defending allies! :nono:
 
We should remove all of our forces from Europe (and pretty much most other spots as well) IMO.

I'm glad we saved Germany from complete Soviet domination... I enjoy Germans vehicles and weapons and can't imagine I'd have the same affinity for a Ural. :p And then there is the beer...

But we surely don't need to pay for the defense of Europe's socialism because we can't afford to pay for own socialism!
 
At some point we need to charge a "protection fee" to these European nations. I am sick as an american tax payer funding this type of defense when Germany is more vulnerable than we are and they spend nothing.

These democrats sure know how to screw the 50% of working america that pays taxes, it would be nice if they advocated that same strategy on our supposed allies and made them pay for the services they receive.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Only 80 of 198 German fighter planes are airworthy...?
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Well it's Europhoons and Tornadoes so the best they could hope for with all of them up and running is ~80% effectiveness. :rolleyes:
And what is it with Europe and the cyclonic fixation?

Nauga,
and a fin on the horizon
 
SIAP: "Good socialism" (think Germany, Sweden, et al) exists only because capitalists pay to protect the good socialists from the bad ones.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Remember that West Germany's military is limited in size and scope due to post WWII SOFA measures. Not sure what became of all the former East German military equipment. Probably went back to the Soviets after the reunification.
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Yes, they are limited to defensive posture only by their own constitution and at the demands of the victors of WWII. Funny how you don't need a lot of fighter planes when you aren't out on foreign adventures every ten years or so and trying to protect your empire 12,000 miles away from home. :rolleyes2:

They kept a lot of East German aircraft and integrated them into the Luftwaffe. The worlds best Mig pilots are in Germany. Some of these older eastern block aircraft are probably still on the books and may be a good part of the number that are no longer airworthy. Just a WAG, I don't really know. I would also hazard to guess that there are a number of old, unsupported American types on the inop roster as well. Up until recently, I believe they were still flying F-104s and F-5s.
 
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Rick Wallace said:
At some point we need to charge a "protection fee" to these European nations.
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Who do they need protection from that they would need a large well equipped army, air force and navy?? Life is simpler when you're not trying to be world police, protect overseas "interests" all over the world and trying to be the number one "super" power.
 
Dav8or said:
Up until recently, I believe they were still flying F-104s and F-5s.
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I didn't know they had F-5's. They also had F-4's until last year and maintained a training unit at Holloman for some time.

Nauga,
with dinosaurs and rhinos
 
KSMooniac said:
I imagine like most of Europe they don't feel the need to spend resources on the military and instead just rely on us for whenever there might be a real need.
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Correct.

And that is why the US should quit NATO.
 
jhausch said:
What makes you say this? I am seriously interested in your answer.
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He probably meant frustration with the overall European defense - total dependence on US, also German 'fraternization' with Russia has been well documented through the history. By the way, this very sorry state of affairs in Europe and its trends have been noted and lamented by a former US Secretary of Defense - Robert Gates.
 
Dav8or said:
They kept a lot of East German aircraft and integrated them into the Luftwaffe. The worlds best Mig pilots are in Germany. Some of these older eastern block aircraft are probably still on the books and may be a good part of the number that are no longer airworthy. Just a WAG, I don't really know. I would also hazard to guess that there are a number of old, unsupported American types on the inop roster as well. Up until recently, I believe they were still flying F-104s and F-5s.
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Mh, no.
The Migs were retired in 2003. They had never acquired a mission in the NATO command structure that went beyond adversary depiction. The problems included insufficient range, obsolete electronics and parts support that depended on the russians.

The last F104 was retired back in the late 80s.

For many years, there was a small squadron of four F4Fs in a interceptor role. The plan had been to replace them with what eventually turned into the Typhoon, but with the decades of delay in that program, that didn't happen until 2013.

At this point, it is Tornado IDS for ground based work, Tornado ECR for counter-radar and reconnaissance and Typhoons as interceptors.

The story about the status of the aircraft comes from a rag called 'Der Spiegel'. It is interesting how history repeats itself, the same magazine was at the center of a similar release of internal information back in 1962.
 
dukeblue219 said:
I wonder how different that is from much of Western Europe at the moment, though. It's fascinating, and bit disconcerting, how rapidly their militaries have shrunk in the last 20 years, and certainly when compared to the state of the continent 70 years ago.

Germany is a nation of 80 million with the world's 5th largest economy and would probably struggle to field 100 combat-ready aircraft. The US Marine Corps alone appears (on paper, from Wikipedia) to have a more formidable air force than Germany and maybe any other single European nation.
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Because they realize that there are better ways to use the resources than useless weapons. The only weapon that is effective against radical Islam is the Quoran.
 
While cutting the budget for keeping the current equipment operational, Germany spent 865 million $ on the "Eurohawk"(the European version of the Globalhawk) just to realize that there's no way to get the drone certified for use in German airspace and stopping the project. I wonder what the real reason has been. Now they bought (or rented) the Israeli Heron1 instead.
Yesterday Germans secretary of defense Ursula von der Leyen (who has been secretary of social affairs before) was blamed for spending too much time on photo shootings while visiting the troops instead of taking care of her business.
The German defense budget is 40 billion $ in 2014.
 
jhausch said:
What makes you say this? I am seriously interested in your answer.
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olasek said:
He probably meant frustration with the overall European defense - total dependence on US, also German 'fraternization' with Russia has been well documented through the history. By the way, this very sorry state of affairs in Europe and its trends have been noted and lamented by a former US Secretary of Defense - Robert Gates.
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More personal reasons for me. There is a reason the Germans started 2 world wars and lost both of them. :rolleyes:
 
weilke said:
Mh, no.
The Migs were retired in 2003. They had never acquired a mission in the NATO command structure that went beyond adversary depiction. The problems included insufficient range, obsolete electronics and parts support that depended on the russians.

The last F104 was retired back in the late 80s.

For many years, there was a small squadron of four F4Fs in a interceptor role. The plan had been to replace them with what eventually turned into the Typhoon, but with the decades of delay in that program, that didn't happen until 2013.

At this point, it is Tornado IDS for ground based work, Tornado ECR for counter-radar and reconnaissance and Typhoons as interceptors.

The story about the status of the aircraft comes from a rag called 'Der Spiegel'. It is interesting how history repeats itself, the same magazine was at the center of a similar release of internal information back in 1962.
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Like I said, I don't really know, but Der Spiegel being a news outlet with a bias like all news outlets do, I wonder about the accounting of aircraft. Is it possible that the retired 104s, F4s and Migs are all being counted on the roster as they sit in a bone yard? Just a curiosity, I don't really care, this is a German problem, not mine.
 
RotorAndWing said:
More personal reasons for me. There is a reason the Germans started 2 world wars and lost both of them. :rolleyes:
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??? Germany didn't start WWI, a Croatian did. Germany got drug in due to family ties. WWII happened because of the terms of the Versailles treaty combined with the effects of the Great Depression.
 
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Dav8or said:
Like I said, I don't really know, but Der Spiegel being a news outlet with a bias like all news outlets do, I wonder about the accounting of aircraft. Is it possible that the retired 104s, F4s and Migs are all being counted on the roster as they sit in a bone yard? Just a curiosity, I don't really care, this is a German problem, not mine.
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Nope. From the article:

"Only 42 of 109 Eurofighters are considered airworthy, as are 38 of 89 Tornado fighters. Of Germany's C-160 military transport planes, only 24 of 43 are in service"
 
Dav8or said:
Like I said, I don't really know, but Der Spiegel being a news outlet with a bias like all news outlets do, I wonder about the accounting of aircraft. Is it possible that the retired 104s, F4s and Migs are all being counted on the roster as they sit in a bone yard? Just a curiosity, I don't really care, this is a German problem, not mine.
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Nope, it's current line stuff and from what I heard from a Bundeswehr Col that I had dinner and some drinks with last night, it's mostly due to privatized maintenance contracts with EADS and political corruption.
 
Henning said:
??? Germany didn't start WWI, a Croatian did. Germany got drug in due to family ties. WWI happened because of the terms of the Versailles treaty combined with the effects of the Great Depression.
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Uh huh........Tell us WW2 was just a big misunderstanding as well.......:rolleyes2:
 
Henning said:
??? Germany didn't start WWI, a Croatian did. Germany got drug in due to family ties. WWI happened because of the terms of the Versailles treaty combined with the effects of the Great Depression.
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I Agree.

I wish people would read more about history to truly understand the genesis of wars, inventions, ideas etc.

As has been mentioned on another thread, Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast is excellent, "Blueprint for Armaddegon" is an excellent primer on World War 1-the first industrial war. Imagine fighting a war with bullets and artillery, and not wearing a helmet.:hairraise:

Interesting fact that I learned, on one day, August 22, 1914 the French Army only (no British, Belgiums, etc), had 27,000 killed. Compare that to 3,000 killed in ALL Allied armies on D-Day. It truly was the Great War.

BTW The guy that started is all was Serbian, not Croatian.
 
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eaglepilot said:
I Agree.


BTW The guy that started is all was Serbian, not Croatian.
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So Gavrilo Princip shoots Archduke Ferdinand and the Germans say "Hey, let's go invade Belgium and Luxumburg, and while we're at it we'll take France too!"

Yea, Germany was just a peace loving little country minding their own business, but when Princip decides to assassinate Ferdinand that drove them to start a war.

Right......:rolleyes2:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Yea, Germany was just a peace loving little country minding their own business, but when Princip decides to assassinate Ferdinand that drove them to start a war.
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And Germany didn't start World War II either, Poles did! They were very impolite and inconsiderate by refusing Hitler's request to build a 'corridor' through Poland to Gdansk.
 
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Dav8or said:
Like I said, I don't really know, but Der Spiegel being a news outlet with a bias like all news outlets do, I wonder about the accounting of aircraft. Is it possible that the retired 104s, F4s and Migs are all being counted on the roster as they sit in a bone yard? Just a curiosity, I don't really care, this is a German problem, not mine.
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There is no boneyard or reserve. The migs went to poland for parts. Except for a couple of airframes on display at museums, the f104 and f4 turned into beer cans.
 
weilke said:
The Migs were retired in 2003. They had never acquired a mission in the NATO command structure that went beyond adversary depiction. The problems included insufficient range, obsolete electronics and parts support that depended on the russians.
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When I visited Flugwerft Schleißheim near Munich last month, there was a MiG 23 being worked on in the restoration hangar. It had Soviet-style DDR markings on one side, and post-reunification markings on the other.

IMG_0847.jpg
 
RotorAndWing said:
So Gavrilo Princip shoots Archduke Ferdinand and the Germans say "Hey, let's go invade Belgium and Luxumburg, and while we're at it we'll take France too!"

Yea, Germany was just a peace loving little country minding their own business, but when Princip decides to assassinate Ferdinand that drove them to start a war.

Right......:rolleyes2:
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Using the power of the Google, here's what I found..in fractions of a second no less. I know there are subtleties that may escape you, but a little effort and critical thinking may enlighten you.

June 28 Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, who was killed in Sarajevo along with his wife Duchess Sophie by Bosnian Serb Gavrilo Princip.

July 5 Austria-Hungary seeks German support for a war against Serbia in case of Russian militarism. Germany gives assurances of support

July 23 Austria-Hungary sends an ultimatum to Serbia. The Serbian response is seen as unsatisfactory

July 28 Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia. Russia mobilizes.

July 31 Germany warns Russia to stop mobilizing. Russia says mobilization is against Austria-Hungary only.

August 1 Germany declares war on Russia, France and Belgium begin full mobilization.

And so on and so on....

Germany was an enthusiastic participant in the War, but without the preface, they would not have invaded Belgium and Luxembourg.....perhaps in a pre-emptive move against France, because they felt it was coming anyway?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Uh huh........Tell us WW2 was just a big misunderstanding as well.......:rolleyes2:
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There was no misunderstanding, WWII was born from economic tyranny defined in the Treaty of Versailles stacked on top of economic depression combined with hyperinflation. You can't expect a starving population to sit around and starve. Under those conditions there is only one outcome.
 
eaglepilot said:
Using the power of the Google, here's what I found..in fractions of a second no less. I know there are subtleties that may escape you, but a little effort and critical thinking may enlighten you.

June 28 Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, who was killed in Sarajevo along with his wife Duchess Sophie by Bosnian Serb Gavrilo Princip.

July 5 Austria-Hungary seeks German support for a war against Serbia in case of Russian militarism. Germany gives assurances of support

July 23 Austria-Hungary sends an ultimatum to Serbia. The Serbian response is seen as unsatisfactory

July 28 Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia. Russia mobilizes.

July 31 Germany warns Russia to stop mobilizing. Russia says mobilization is against Austria-Hungary only.

August 1 Germany declares war on Russia, France and Belgium begin full mobilization.

And so on and so on....

Germany was an enthusiastic participant in the War, but without the preface, they would not have invaded Belgium and Luxembourg.....perhaps in a pre-emptive move against France, because they felt it was coming anyway?
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They didn't 'feel' it, they knew it. You have to remember this was still in the time when all of Europe was under monarchical rule where all the monarchies and nobility were related through marriages, often to cousins. WWI was a family feud.
 
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