Smaller turbine engines

Challenged

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A week ago or so I saw a post from someone here (maybe Jay?) that had some statistics showing turbine engines being dramatically more reliable than piston aviation engines. Just wondering why you don't see these more often in smaller GA aircraft? Like this one:
 
A week ago or so I saw a post from someone here (maybe Jay?) that had some statistics showing turbine engines being dramatically more reliable than piston aviation engines. Just wondering why you don't see these more often in smaller GA aircraft? Like this one:
Initial cost is probably the main reason. about 200K for a "western made" engine. you can get a cheaper one such as the walter but it will still set you back 180K with all the accessories. so...
They do have a higher TBO but after the various inspections HSI etc.. you're still looking at a much higher hourly operational cost. When fitted to a small frame, you're not going to get stellar speeds so in conclusion, for a small airplane , for a person with a (relatively) small budget, the piston is still the way to go, unless someone comes up with a 60k certified turbine engine :p.
 
Well, that and the fact that turbines work best in the flight levels, which isn't an area most poison singles want to be without pressurization.

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Didn't a few folks mod a RV with one of those inexpensive surplus military gen set solar (sp?) turbines?

For some jobs turbines really are the way to go, I fly then for work and frankly trust them far more than a piston since they are smoother and have less "stuff" going on, but for short hop 1-6 pax GA, minus the beta range and dependability, I don't see a huge benefit, the TBO is going to be offset by other turbine MX, desal wash and whatnot.
 
I keep wondering why the concept of a tiny turbine turning a generator with a battery system hasn't been the way most companies are pursuing "electric flight". Wouldn't take much of a turbine to drive an alternator, and if it fails, you land before the batteries die...
 
The OP post refers to GA certified turboprop engine, nothing out there is cheapo.... Mucho $$$
 
A week ago or so I saw a post from someone here (maybe Jay?) that had some statistics showing turbine engines being dramatically more reliable than piston aviation engines. Just wondering why you don't see these more often in smaller GA aircraft? Like this one:

Maybe it's just my Garett background, but I was a little shocked that he let that thing start up like that, without having his hand on the cut off, ready, incase the temp started to go crazy? Brave man, or just not someone who would foot the bill for a hot start.
 
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I keep wondering why the concept of a tiny turbine turning a generator with a battery system hasn't been the way most companies are pursuing "electric flight". Wouldn't take much of a turbine to drive an alternator, and if it fails, you land before the batteries die...
Too complicated, more things to go wrong, inefficient energy transfer etc.... certification process very costly....
 
Too complicated, more things to go wrong, inefficient energy transfer etc.... certification process very costly....

Less things to go wrong actually. At lest from a in flight failure standpoint.
 
Maybe it's just my Garett background, but I was a little shock that he let that thig start up like that without having his hand on the cut off, ready, incase the temp started to go crazy? Brave man, or just not someone who would foot the bill for a hot start.
I'm not sure what kind of engine it is, but some modern turbine have FADEC with auto start and protection against hot start etc... pretty smart system.
 
that one is no good anyway, appears to require the left foot to pump up fuel pressure pre-start
 
I'm not sure what kind of engine it is, but some modern turbine have FADEC with auto start and protection against hot start etc... pretty smart system.

Yeah, I flew a TPE331-12JR with SRL and TTL, which was great unless with it did its 24 to 48v switch the battery got low and it blacked out the instruments.
 
Too complicated, more things to go wrong, inefficient energy transfer etc.... certification process very costly....

A tiny turbine hooked to an alternator hooked to a bus with batteries and an electric motor, has "more things to go wrong"? LOL.

You realize we're essentially taking about an APU here... Hooked to the same thing that flies every day on thousands of airplanes. Only change is the electric motor hooked to the prop. And people have done that one also...

(I didn't mention that there's one company trying exactly the above. They're in flight test, last I heard. I suspect the real "problem" with a tiny turbine is that it doesn't excite the greenies that there's still a dinosaur juice device on board... They want to charge off of the coal-fired version on the ground... Hahaha.)
 
Less things to go wrong actually. At lest from a in flight failure standpoint.
The more components in a system, the more failure points... that's a very simple equation. your potential failure rate may be way below the overall system failure rate because of it's added complexity.
 
The more components in a system, the more failure points... that's a very simple equation. your potential failure rate may be way below the overall system failure rate because of it's added complexity.

Have you seen the number of moving parts in a standard 1930s style air-cooled internal combustion engine? Haha.
 
A tiny turbine hooked to an alternator hooked to a bus with batteries and an electric motor, has "more things to go wrong"? LOL.

You realize we're essentially taking about an APU here... Hooked to the same thing that flies every day on thousands of airplanes. Only change is the electric motor hooked to the prop. And people have done that one also...

(I didn't mention that there's one company trying exactly the above. They're in flight test, last I heard. I suspect the real "problem" with a tiny turbine is that it doesn't excite the greenies that there's still a dinosaur juice device on board... They want to charge off of the coal-fired version on the ground... Hahaha.)
If it was as simple as you think it is, it would be already operational. There is a reason why it's non existent (large scale operation).
By the way why don't you ask the BOEING guys about Battery systems, they can be very tricky...:D:D
 
I'm not sure what kind of engine it is, but some modern turbine have FADEC with auto start and protection against hot start etc... pretty smart system.

Yeah but you still need to guard for a FADEC failure during start. If I move my finger away from the idle cutoff during start up with an instructor on board, you can bet I'll hear about it.
 
If it was as simple as you think it is, it would be already operational. There is a reason why it's non existent (large scale operation).
By the way why don't you ask the BOEING guys about Battery systems, they can be very tricky...:D:D

Ummm there's a lot of reasons airplanes aren't being built in any quantities in low end GA, not the least of which is simple momentum and a massive used fleet that's still flyable. It's very unlikely it's about the complexity of a simple battery and motor and an even simpler charging device.

Boeing found the things were being built wrong. On a jet that nearly everything is electric and automated, I wouldn't call that much of a failure, and certainly wouldn't use it as an example of how a little APU or smaller sized turbine would be too complex. The entire 787 shouldn't be flying if electrical system complexity is such a big problem. LOL.
 
What's the cost of the little TP100 anyway? I'd be surprised if it's much below 100K. While I like the reliability and the turbine sound is like music to the ears, the cost and 21 GPH for only 241 HP, just doesn't make financial sense to me.
 
So can some engineer type explain in layman's terms why a turbine engine is inherently so much less fuel efficient than a piston engine?

Is there anything, theoretically, that can be done about this problem?
 
So can some engineer type explain in layman's terms why a turbine engine is inherently so much less fuel efficient than a piston engine?

Is there anything, theoretically, that can be done about this problem?

In what application? In hauling around thousands and thousands of pounds of passengers when bolted to a wing, they're pretty good.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_efficiency

(The fun sub-link off of that page is to the turbine car that Chrysler built in the late 70s. And then destroyed all but a handful.)
 
I keep wondering why the concept of a tiny turbine turning a generator with a battery system hasn't been the way most companies are pursuing "electric flight". Wouldn't take much of a turbine to drive an alternator, and if it fails, you land before the batteries die...
Because it wouldn't take a tiny turbine. It would take the same turbine as it would to drive the prop directly. Except now you have the extra weight of a generator and electric motor, plus conversion losses.

Airplanes run at constant RPM and constant power. You won't save anything by making a hybrid under that condition.
 
(The fun sub-link off of that page is to the turbine car that Chrysler built in the late 70s. And then destroyed all but a handful.)

Around the summer of 1966 the Chrysler turbine car was driving around the country. My dad and I were on our way on a Saturday to a house he was fixing up to sell. I used to read Popular Mechanics as a kid so I knew it was the turbine car and yelled at dad that there's that turbine car. We stopped and joined the crowd checking it out. It was just like this one, same color, but not sure if they had a few running around or not.

Chrysler turbine car 1963.jpg

Then the Indy 500 in '67 & '68 had the turbine Indy car whooshing around the track. Thing almost won the '67 race but a $6 part broke and it came in 6th. Andy Granatelli fielded these here:

Granatelli & turbine cars.jpg

Indy car outlawed I believe after the '68 race. Stupid decision IMO, but they didn't ask me.
 
Looks like the turbine Maule wasn't a big enough seller to continue with (at least I don't see it on the website anymore.) They never published range or fuel burn numbers for that airplane that I know of.
 
Maybe it's just my Garett background, but I was a little shocked that he let that thing start up like that, without having his hand on the cut off, ready, incase the temp started to go crazy? Brave man, or just not someone who would foot the bill for a hot start.

On many FADEC engines it's all automatic and the pilot is just instructed to monitor. That might be the case for this one. In some engines, the pilot intervening can actually screw up the automatic protections that exist and potentially make a hot start situation worse.

So can some engineer type explain in layman's terms why a turbine engine is inherently so much less fuel efficient than a piston engine?

Is there anything, theoretically, that can be done about this problem?

In Layman's terms: In a piston engine, the fuel burning (and thus the energy) is contained within a chamber. In a turbine, you're basically blowing a blast of air, trying to extract energy from that blast of air, and then using it to create power. Think about a piston engine like putting your hand on a propeller and physically turning it. Now think about trying to turn that propeller by blowing air on it. You CAN do it (that's why propellers windmill) but it will take a lot more air. You've also got the combustion aspects (turbines actually run pretty rich in the combustion chamber)

There's a lot more to it than that, of course, but that's a simplified version.

As to what you can do about it, there are things you can do to improve efficiency but there are limits. You can make lean-burn combustors, but those are harder to design and also harder to keep a stable burn. You can increase the OPR (basically the compression ratio) which tends to take a more advanced, bigger, heavier compressor. That adds to cost as well as weight. You can add turbine stages to extract more power from the exhaust. Again, more weight, more cost, etc. You're doing all this with things that are inherently difficult and expensive to produce and low demand, which means development costs are going to be amortized over a small number of sales.

In my opinion, the real key would be trying to make more compressor and turbine stages as much as would be practical. Basically try to increase your OPR and extract as much energy as possible. Lean burn combustors are really hard and I think you'd be setting yourself up for issues trying to go there.
 
SO what's the break even point for turbine vs piston?
 
On many FADEC engines it's all automatic and the pilot is just instructed to monitor. That might be the case for this one. In some engines, the pilot intervening can actually screw up the automatic protections that exist and potentially make a hot start situation worse.



In Layman's terms: In a piston engine, the fuel burning (and thus the energy) is contained within a chamber. In a turbine, you're basically blowing a blast of air, trying to extract energy from that blast of air, and then using it to create power. Think about a piston engine like putting your hand on a propeller and physically turning it. Now think about trying to turn that propeller by blowing air on it. You CAN do it (that's why propellers windmill) but it will take a lot more air. You've also got the combustion aspects (turbines actually run pretty rich in the combustion chamber)

There's a lot more to it than that, of course, but that's a simplified version.

As to what you can do about it, there are things you can do to improve efficiency but there are limits. You can make lean-burn combustors, but those are harder to design and also harder to keep a stable burn. You can increase the OPR (basically the compression ratio) which tends to take a more advanced, bigger, heavier compressor. That adds to cost as well as weight. You can add turbine stages to extract more power from the exhaust. Again, more weight, more cost, etc. You're doing all this with things that are inherently difficult and expensive to produce and low demand, which means development costs are going to be amortized over a small number of sales.

In my opinion, the real key would be trying to make more compressor and turbine stages as much as would be practical. Basically try to increase your OPR and extract as much energy as possible. Lean burn combustors are really hard and I think you'd be setting yourself up for issues trying to go there.

I've never seen a start up where the pilot doesn't have a procedure for the "system" crapping the bed on you, and has their hand ready to kill the fuel at a seconds notice.
 
Looks like the turbine Maule wasn't a big enough seller to continue with (at least I don't see it on the website anymore.) They never published range or fuel burn numbers for that airplane that I know of.

A student of mine bought a Maule (after getting his PPC) back in the mid 80s and we saw that thing (turbine Maule) takeoff on a demo flight while we were over there in Moultrie. Took off from right on their ramp. Maule guy said something like 10,000' in 10 minutes. Was cool to watch.
 
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SO what's the break even point for turbine vs piston?

Pretty much once you get in the cabin class realm, although it does depend on the specifics of your mission.
 
What's the cost of the little TP100 anyway? I'd be surprised if it's much below 100K. While I like the reliability and the turbine sound is like music to the ears, the cost and 21 GPH for only 241 HP, just doesn't make financial sense to me.

Well the fuel issue isn't as big of a deal (probably less than $20/hr difference vs buying 100LL at 12+/gph). The benefit comes when you can still maintain that power all the way up to service ceiling, versus the NA piston which loses power pretty quickly. Add in forced induction for a piston, and the fuel for the turbine is probably a wash against higher maintenance costs and shorter TBOs.
 
Turbine engines are normally aspirated also. They lose power with altitude just like the NA piston.
 
Turbine engines are normally aspirated also. They lose power with altitude just like the NA piston.

I don't think so. The front parts of turbines compress air. That's all they are is huge compressors!
 
Turbine engines are normally aspirated also. They lose power with altitude just like the NA piston.
Huh? They all have multistage compressors. I suppose you could call a scramjet naturally aspirated, but I don't think those are the topic of discussion.
 
Nope, as the air thins the compressors push less air. There is no mechanism for the compressor to be more efficient with altitude. A turbine will lose power just like a NA piston as it climbs.
 
Yup kinda like a bunch of turbo compressors compressing atmospheric air. :eek:

Maybe the Ronnie dude can explain the affects of the total pressure ratios with altitude?
I don't think so. The front parts of turbines compress air. That's all they are is huge compressors!
 
I don't think so. The front parts of turbines compress air. That's all they are is huge compressors!
They do lose power at altitude, not as much as a NA piston engine, but it drops off as does the fuel flow. My Conquest burns about 62 GPH at FL220-230 and trues at 255 knots or so. The torque is limited by the ITT temps, but it's around 1050-1100 lbs at that altitude, vs 1300 lbs until the engine temp limits are reached, usually around 16-17000 feet.
 
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