SLOW J-3 on the VFR Arrival OSH

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J3_Cub

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Hello Friends,

I am debating whether flying our J-3 on the VFR arrival is advisable, and am looking for comments from those who have done the slow-speed arrival.

Per the NOTAM, I intend to arrive at FISK between 7-730am on Sunday (25th) morning. The airplane really can't do better than 65-68kts.

I don't want to ruin the show for the 90kt traffic trying to make it inbound behind us.
Do controllers step slow traffic down out of the 1800' 90 kts arrivals?

Does anyone have some helpful input on the matter?


Many thanks!
 
Douglas Rogers said:
Hello Friends,

I am debating whether flying our J-3 on the VFR arrival is advisable, and am looking for comments from those who have done the slow-speed arrival.

Per the NOTAM, I intend to arrive at FISK between 7-730am on Sunday (25th) morning. The airplane really can't do better than 65-68kts.

I don't want to ruin the show for the 90kt traffic trying to make it inbound behind us.
Do controllers step slow traffic down out of the 1800' 90 kts arrivals?

Does anyone have some helpful input on the matter?


Many thanks!
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I've never done Oshkosh, but at Sun-n-Fun, I would get the idea of a "controller" out of my head right off the bat. Traffic is anything but controlled. I'd guess nearly half of the arrivals in my vicinity were not following the NOTAM as documented, let alone anything anybody said on the radio.
 
Having previously arrived on the vfr arrival to OSH in a 90kt capable airplane, I have no concern about ATC doing their part. They do an excellent job in spite of a lot of "pilots" who aren't playing by the rules. My question concerns playing by the rules in a way that wont negatively affect those who dont.
 
Douglas Rogers said:
Having previously arrived on the vfr arrival to OSH in a 90kt capable airplane, I have no concern about ATC doing their part. They do an excellent job in spite of a lot of "pilots" who aren't playing by the rules. My question concerns playing by the rules in a way that wont negatively affect those who dont.
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Since you've done it ask yourself, would you have been ok if you had a J3 in front of you flying in? I don't know why not.
 
You have every right to be there. Flying a Cub to Oshkosh is a wonderful thing. Please arrive at RIPON after 7:30am on Sunday, though -- I plan to be at RIPON at 7:00 am.

In all seriousness, please read the NOTAM and come on in. It will slow things down a bit, and people will pass you (even though they shouldn't). If I have to slow my Arrow down to follow you, I will, and I won't complain about it. The thought of a Cub not being welcome at Oshkosh is insane.
 
Salty said:
Since you've done it ask yourself, would you have been ok if you had a J3 in front of you flying in? I don't know why not.
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I would not arrive between 7am and 730am knowing that the notam states that slower aircraft will be arriving during this time. I would appreciate more helpful replies from those with some experience on the matter. Good day to you.
 
pburger said:
You have every right to be there. Flying a Cub to Oshkosh is a wonderful thing. Please arrive at RIPON after 7:30am on Sunday, though -- I plan to be at RIPON at 7:00 am.

In all seriousness, please read the NOTAM and come on in. It will slow things down a bit, and people will pass you (even though they shouldn't). If I have to slow my Arrow down to follow you, I will, and I won't complain about it. The thought of a Cub not being welcome at Oshkosh is insane.
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pburger said:
You have every right to be there. Flying a Cub to Oshkosh is a wonderful thing. Please arrive at RIPON after 7:30am on Sunday, though -- I plan to be at RIPON at 7:00 am.

In all seriousness, please read the NOTAM and come on in. It will slow things down a bit, and people will pass you (even though they shouldn't). If I have to slow my Arrow down to follow you, I will, and I won't complain about it. The thought of a Cub not being welcome at Oshkosh is insane.
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I agree with this assessment, but we have all seen overwhelmed arrivals doing insane things over the tracks and approaching Fisk. I'm inclined to push onward and plan to arrive within the prescribed window, and cross that bridge when I come to it. I have to assume the controllers/faa have done their homework on the matter or else slow arrivals wouldn't be allowed in the first place. I would love to hear from anyone who has done it! Thank you for spreading the Cub-love, as well. Couldn't agree more!
 
Christ, I'd be ****ed if I had to follow someone for 15 miles at less than my final approach speed.

Not saying don't go, but whoever organizes that cluster needs to pull their head out.
 
PaulS said:
There is that spirit of cooperation, but Cirrus pilots are the problem, lol. :eek:
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Old guys doing 45 in the left lane on the interstate with the right blinker on. "It says min speed 45, too bad for everyone else!" :D
 
EdFred said:
Old guys doing 45 in the left lane on the interstate with the right blinker on. "It says min speed 45, too bad for everyone else!" :D
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Or even worse, peckerhead younger rule enforcers in the left lane doing the speed limit, when the flow of traffic is faster. "But I'm doing the speed limit." I love when they get pulled over.
 
In a normal year encountering a slow airplane is a nonevent. You cycle back and try again. In the last two or three years arrivals have slowed way, way down, so if you get past FISKE you're done cycling. That's when it can get interesting. I swear if there's lots of IFR wx right before the show I'm either showing up midweek or not going. I am not going through that cluster again.
 
I’ve done it that slow. No worries. I do recommend TRYING for a low volume time, very early seems to be best.

The controllers are GOOD at handling this. As a pilot, simply keep your head on a swivel, and be as familiar with the NOTAM as possible. Exercise common sense. If you mess up, fess up, they’ll help you fix it. This is where they REALLY shine. Honestly. It’s fun!

The whole thing seems to rely on reduced comms, so they have the bandwidth to concentrate on a goof up and fix it safely.
 
Oh, and being ON ALTITUDE as close as possible helps other people to see you. They do not have little secret workarounds for slower aircraft.
 
PaulS said:
There is that spirit of cooperation, but Cirrus pilots are the problem, lol. :eek:
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Exactly. Some poor sob spends two days slogging across the country at 65 knots and then Bonanza boy is all upset because he has to Circle back to Ripon and spend an extra 10 minutes in the air after his four hour ride. Somehow I find it hard to be sympathetic.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Exactly. Some poor sob spends two days slogging across the country at 65 knots and then Bonanza boy is all upset because he has to Circle back to Ripon and spend an extra 10 minutes in the air after his four hour ride. Somehow I find it hard to be sympathetic.
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How is that Bonanza Boy's fault though? What if Bonanza boy spent 2 days in the air coming in from Mexico or Alaska? What if it's his 3rd time getting sent around?
 
I have been the guy in the Cub making a G-65 circle for 10 minutes while I got the plane on the ground and off the runway.
Does it bother me to stack other planes up behind me? Yup. I do feel for them.
Do I rush to get out of the way? Nope. I fly it down exactly the same way I always fly it to the ground.
No rush, no mistakes.
 
EdFred said:
How is that Bonanza Boy's fault though? What if Bonanza boy spent 2 days in the air coming in from Mexico or Alaska? What if it's his 3rd time getting sent around?
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So, J-3 should have known better than to come to Oshkosh? What about a Pietenpol? Those are the kind of aircraft that were behind the founding of the EAA. Go "Vans" or go home?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, J-3 should have known better than to come to Oshkosh? What about a Pietenpol? Those are the kind of aircraft that were behind the founding of the EAA. Go "Vans" or go home?
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I'm just saying, why should distance traveled matter? People from California get first priority? People in bordering states and WI get sent back to the lake because they didn't fly as far?
 
I haven't had a chance to make OSH yet. I can fly the RV plenty slow (in winter), problem is, even with brand new baffling, vernatherm checked, etc ... my plane will over heat doing prolonged slow flight during summer ...

Seems they could come up with a grass landing for the cubs etc that can handle grass and can't do 75 knots ...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
So, J-3 should have known better than to come to Oshkosh? What about a Pietenpol? Those are the kind of aircraft that were behind the founding of the EAA. Go "Vans" or go home?
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No one is saying that, and no one, at least me, is picking on slow aircraft. They should be at airventure. I think the notam is flawed, and even one of the guys who claims to have worked on writing it says there are issues. It sounds like it may be being worked on. Too late for this year. Hopefully the slow guys will come early as they've been asked.

I'm hoping it is not as bad as some say it is. We'll see.
 
The event is for everyone and for some reason everyone has picked a slower speed that they think is too slow. It has been working for many years. They take input from everyone, but whether or not people complain about it, it works. There's a whole section full of Cubs, so they obviously made it okay. You'll be fine, come on in.

BTW, another complaint is people who are flying in with no radio, yet it's allowed and it's worked, so I don't see them changing it. Nothing they do will please everyone.

I did a photo shoot for EAA with the Flood Family. The father and youngest son arrived together in the Chief and Cub with no radios.
32862966657_081e2e901f_c.jpg
 
Thanks for everyone's input on the matter. In my original post I mentioned the times stated in the NOTAM, Page 4 bullet points in the second column.

I think many people skip this section as it is labeled "for aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90kts."

I interpret this section to read:

"Well, from 7:00-7:30am every day there will be a lot of aircraft arriving over fisk at 1800' that cannot maintain 90 kts. I think I will avoid that brief window and let the slow boys come in." or at the very least "I am arriving between 700-730. I had better count on slow traffic being at my altitude, and had better prepare my fuel situation for maneuvering to accommodate them."

Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be common sentiment. At any rate, I am resolved to do it. I will be there on the 25th of July, over Fisk, at 1800 and 68 kts doing the very best I can.

I will see you all there. Have an excellent show, friends.
 
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Douglas Rogers said:
I interpret this section to read:

"Well, from 7:00-7:30am every day there will be a lot of aircraft arriving over fisk at 1800' that cannot maintain 90 kts. I think I will avoid that brief window and let the slow boys come in." or at the very least "I am arriving between 700-730. I had better count on slow traffic being at my altitude, and had better prepare my fuel situation for maneuvering to accommodate them."
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Yes, you have it right.
 
Douglas Rogers said:
Thanks for everyone's input on the matter. In my original post I mentioned the times stated in the NOTAM, Page 4 bullet points in the second column.

I think many people skip this section as it is labeled "for aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90kts."

I interpret this section to read:

"Well, from 7:00-7:30am every day there will be a lot of aircraft arriving over fisk at 1800' that cannot maintain 90 kts. I think I will avoid that brief window and let the slow boys come in." or at the very least "I am arriving between 700-730. I had better count on slow traffic being at my altitude, and had better prepare my fuel situation for maneuvering to accommodate them."

Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be common sentiment. At any rate, I am resolved to do it. I will be there on the 25th of July, over Fisk, at 1800 and 68 kts doing the very best I can.

I will see you all there. Have an excellent show, friends.
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Actually I read it the same as you, and I won't be there at those times. Have a great flight!
 
danhagan said:
Seems they could come up with a grass landing for the cubs etc that can handle grass and can't do 75 knots ...
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EAA is acquiring land to enable that. IIRC, it will take the form of a grass runway near the SE corner of the field..
 
Douglas Rogers said:
Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be common sentiment. At any rate, I am resolved to do it. I will be there on the 25th of July, over Fisk, at 1800 and 68 kts doing the very best I can.

I will see you all there. Have an excellent show, friends.
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I will go in Sunday morning as early as I can. I plan to be in a straight-tail 182 unless I find a plane before then. If I have to, I’ll put in a lot of flaps and ride in right behind the Cubs! No complaints from me! I have to get there and get to work!
 
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PaulS said:
Or even worse, peckerhead younger rule enforcers in the left lane doing the speed limit, when the flow of traffic is faster. "But I'm doing the speed limit." I love when they get pulled over.
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O.T.
I learned to drive in Florida in the mid-fifties and the signage on 4 lane highways (two lanes each direction) said "Keep Right Except to Pass." It worked well. If I were passing in the left lane and there was traffic behind me coming up fast, I'd get back in the right lane as soon as I could.

There was less traffic and better road maintenance back then. Today, heavy trucks have created lots of patched potholes in the right lane, so to get a smooth ride you just about have to drive in the left lane on a lot of U.S. highways, and that's a shame.

Now, back to OSH arrivals.
 
I think the folks here who say “come on in” in your Cub and I will work around you are the better pilots and the kind of folks who are enjoyable to be around. It isn’t supposed to be a race. It is supposed to be FUN!
 
I know the joke "never say never", but I can never imagine myself wanting to go to Oshkosh. The fewer other planes sharing my airspace, the better (ditto for crowds sharing my personal space on the ground). I suspect the event is mainly for extroverts and a few very motivated introverts with bucket lists to check off.

My ideal fly-in is a quiet pancake breakfast with someone arriving every 10-15 minutes. :) I might try to do a COPA convention some year (they're not especially crowded, because … you know … it's just COPA).

That said, best wishes to everyone flying to OSH, and I have you have a fantastic time.
 
EdFred said:
Christ, I'd be ****ed if I had to follow someone for 15 miles at less than my final approach speed.

Not saying don't go, but whoever organizes that cluster needs to pull their head out.
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Terrible attitude. The worst that will happen is that you're stuck behind them from RIPON to FISK. The controllers are pretty good about dealing with aircraft that aren't capable of maintaining 90 after that point. I'm not going to complain about an aircraft that CAN'T maintain 90. I reserve that for the clowns who CAN but don't. I had to bail between RIPON and FISK because I couldn't track behind a 182 which was only doing 60 knots at that point. And our stall speeds are about the same. I couldn't understand why he was flying so darned close to it.
 
flyingron said:
I had to bail between RIPON and FISK because I couldn't track behind a 182 which was only doing 60 knots at that point. And our stall speeds are about the same. I couldn't understand why he was flying so darned close to it.
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Musta’ been the same 182 that I watched fly a VOR approach from my perch in the hold…for 23 minutes. :eek:
 
flyingron said:
Terrible attitude. The worst that will happen is that you're stuck behind them from RIPON to FISK. The controllers are pretty good about dealing with aircraft that aren't capable of maintaining 90 after that point. I'm not going to complain about an aircraft that CAN'T maintain 90. I reserve that for the clowns who CAN but don't. I had to bail between RIPON and FISK because I couldn't track behind a 182 which was only doing 60 knots at that point. And our stall speeds are about the same. I couldn't understand why he was flying so darned close to it.
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Because he was following another plane doing 60 knots and he didn’t want to bail???
 
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