slips in a 182???

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SupraPilot

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today i was taking the warrior up for a flight and i had to grab something out of the 182 and i noticed the little placard that said "avoid slips with flaps deployed"

so the first thign that ran through my mind is what if i need to do a slip during landing?? or is that just not gonna happen in a 182??

Ant
 
it is not prohibited, just says to avoid. on some of the cessnas, in some conditions, in a slip, you will get a slight oscillation in pitch due to flow blanked out over the elevator. its hardly dangerous, simply let out the slip and you are back to normal flight.

most 182's have 40 degrees of flaps which really does eliminate the need for a slip except in the most extreme high approach, in which case a go around is probably a prudent option. you can just about fall straight out of the sky with those big barn doors out.
 
SupraPilot said:
today i was taking the warrior up for a flight and i had to grab something out of the 182 and i noticed the little placard that said "avoid slips with flaps deployed"

so the first thign that ran through my mind is what if i need to do a slip during landing?? or is that just not gonna happen in a 182??

Ant
Click to expand...

Beware the "oscillations of doom":hairraise:

Actually, I assume it's the same as for the 172. You can get a bit of an oscillation if you through in too much slip for the particular flap/airspeed combination you have. If you reduce the slip a bit, they go away. I've never heard of anybody having any real problems with it. It's been discussed ad nauseum on the red board, probably a few times here too.

You'll notice it says "avoid" not "prohibited." I think the lawyers got a bit excited on that one.

If you're nervous about it, go to altitude and slip away and see what you think. That's what I did, and I couldn't get it to do anything nasty.

Chris
 
I have a video of the dreaded oscillation of doom in 172. It's hardly anything to be concerned with. It consists of a shake in the yoke forward and aft maybe 1/4 inch.

You can hardly even see it on the video.
 
Why would there be a "avoid slips with flaps extended" placard in a 182, unless someone confused a 182 with a 172? The only airplane which requires this placard is a Cessna 172. It is not required for the 182 or any other plane with which I am familiar. Therefore, you can slip away in a 182 without fear of the "oscillation of doom."
 
These placards might more accurately be worded:
Avoid slips unless you know how to pilot this aircraft!
 
You could die doing a slip in a Cessna with the flaps down!!! OH MY GAWD!!

I did have a CFI tell me once that slips were "prohibited" in flaps. SO I made the landing with out a slip as I did not want toargue on short final and then asked him to show me in the book where it said that. We had a long discussion over the words 'avoid' and 'prohibited'. I think that was one of the first times I recognozed that this particualr instructor did not have a good educational background form his 30 day wonder school. It got worse with him too about other things that I have written about on PoA. I eventually fired him after a few more lesson where I spent more time teching him than he did teaching me.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why would there be a "avoid slips with flaps extended" placard in a 182, unless someone confused a 182 with a 172? The only airplane which requires this placard is a Cessna 172. It is not required for the 182 or any other plane with which I am familiar. Therefore, you can slip away in a 182 without fear of the "oscillation of doom."
Click to expand...

Some people learn one thing and stick with it I suppose. During my PPSEL check ride in a Warrior I started slipping to a landing. The DPE, a Cessna pilot, wondered what the heck I was doing. Fortunately I'd heard of this little misunderstanding before then and was able to 'splain myself.

Regards,
Joe
 
Joe B said:
Some people learn one thing and stick with it I suppose. During my PPSEL check ride in a Warrior I started slipping to a landing. The DPE, a Cessna pilot, wondered what the heck I was doing. Fortunately I'd heard of this little misunderstanding before then and was able to 'splain myself.

Regards,
Joe
Click to expand...
Now a CFI, especially a young 90 day wonder CFI, while they should know better is almost understandable, but a DPE? He should definately know what is involved with this...

In fact, my DPE for both my instrument and private tickets made it a point to say that slipping a 172 with full flaps was NOT a dangerous practice.
 
smigaldi said:
I did have a CFI tell me once that slips were "prohibited" in flaps.
Click to expand...
At one time, several decades ago, the owner's manual did say that, but it was changed to "avoid" a long time ago, including in the planes whose owner's manuals originally said "prohibited." So if you find an old enough 172 owner's manual, you can find the root of the "prohibited" story, although that prohibition has been overcome by later action (see the current 172 TCDS, which is, unlike the out-of-date owner's manual, a regulatory document).
 
NC Pilot said:
In fact, my DPE for both my instrument and private tickets made it a point to say that slipping a 172 with full flaps was NOT a dangerous practice.
Click to expand...

I would hope so as a slip to a landing was a required element for my PP check ride. And I did it in a 172. And was slipping rather agressively as I was high and hot (and eventually went around because of it, another required element met. :D )
 
Ghery said:
I would hope so as a slip to a landing was a required element for my PP check ride. And I did it in a 172.
Click to expand...
The Private Pilot PTS requires slips to a landing, but does not require the flaps be extended during that Task. Therefore, a pilot taking the ride in a 172 who did not wish to slip with flaps, could in theory complete that Task with flaps retracted. However, I've seen the same pilots who refused to slip with flaps extended in that demonstration go around and then make a standard landing with full flaps with the wind 20 degrees off the nose -- and never seemed to realize or care they were slipping with full flaps while doing it.:dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
The Private Pilot PTS requires slips to a landing, but does not require the flaps be extended during that Task. Therefore, a pilot taking the ride in a 172 who did not wish to slip with flaps, could in theory complete that Task with flaps retracted. However, I've seen the same pilots who refused to slip with flaps extended in that demonstration go around and then make a standard landing with full flaps with the wind 20 degrees off the nose -- and never seemed to realize or care they were slipping with full flaps while doing it.:dunno:
Click to expand...

That is funny. Sad, but funny.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why would there be a "avoid slips with flaps extended" placard in a 182, unless someone confused a 182 with a 172? The only airplane which requires this placard is a Cessna 172. It is not required for the 182 or any other plane with which I am familiar. Therefore, you can slip away in a 182 without fear of the "oscillation of doom."
Click to expand...

Ron,

I thought the same thing, and in trying to "prove" that the 172 was the only one (our 182 does not have the placard), I discovered that several other aircraft have this limitation:

177 - The original Cardinal (not 177A or 177B models)
180 - The J model and most/all with floats or skis installed
185 - 185's prior to 18503683 with floats installed, or any 185 on skis
188 - Ag Wagon, serial numbers 1 through 293
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ron,

I thought the same thing, and in trying to "prove" that the 172 was the only one (our 182 does not have the placard), I discovered that several other aircraft have this limitation:

177 - The original Cardinal (not 177A or 177B models)
180 - The J model and most/all with floats or skis installed
185 - 185's prior to 18503683 with floats installed, or any 185 on skis
188 - Ag Wagon, serial numbers 1 through 293
Click to expand...

The Cessna 170B owners manual states "avoid slips with full flaps deployed" or somesuch. However, this isn't a regulatory document and a placard is no longer required (if it ever was) as evidenced by TCDS A-799 rev. 54.

There have been reports from some 170B pilots of something more severe than the "oscillation of doom" when using full flaps and full rudder deflection...more like a full blanking out of elevator authority resulting in an extreme and sudden nose-down attitude. Never experienced it myself but with full 40 degrees of flaps set on this aircraft if you still need to slip aggressively to get down your *ss should be going around; and on a strong crosswind landing I use something (quite) less than full flaps.
 
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I do slips with 20deg regularly in my 182. We have a large tree on final, so you’re either coming in fast, or you lower the nose and slip it directly over the tree to lose 50 feet.
 
Hi Folks.
Gist of the conversation here seems to hinge on wording legal-eze vice physics, and not everyone here has removed a flap. And that's OK.
These photos are of a flap from my 182A that I am restoring (<1800 Airframe Hours). This wrinkling is from the PO performing Slips with Flaps Extended. It's currently sitting up the flight school's training room.
I first was amazed how lightweight these Flaps are. I'm guessing they each weigh less that 32 ounces unpainted.
Is this Flap Serviceable as is? That's up to the AI I'm dealing with I guess. Our lives often depend on their opinions.
I USED TO demonstrate slips to students using Flaps fully extended, explaining to them (with an arrogant confidence) the difference between the words AVOID and PROHIBITED on the Flap's Limitation Placard. Yes indeed, you can fly a Slip safely at a slower airspeed and get a greater Rate of Descent with Flaps Extended vs Retracted. But at what risks/costs? A plane fully loaded and Flaps fully extended, a Slip has to put a huge angular load on these lightweight "boards".

Slip 1.jpg Slip 2.jpg Slip 3.jpg

Just thought I'd share.

Steve
 
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I do not have flaps in my airplane, so I slip almost every landing, usually into ground effect. That said, with the monster flaps on the 182, why would you need to?
 
That's a good question for the FAA and why they have it in the ACS Ed.
 
Stevarino said:
That's a good question for the FAA and why they have it in the ACS Ed.
Click to expand...
The only things I see in the ACS that apply to flap usage in the Forward Slip to a Landing task are:

To determine that the applicant exhibits satisfactory knowledge, risk management, and skills associated with a forward slip to a landing.

When and why a forward slip approach is used during an approach.

Forward slip operations, including fuel flowage, tail stalls with flaps, and lack of airspeed control.

Configure the airplane correctly.
Click to expand...

I see nothing that requires slips with full flaps.
 
Correct.
Configure the airplane correctly is all the farther they will go.:)

Steve
 
[Laughs in settling with power]
 
I’m going to say the white arc was exceeded with 20-40 deg flaps during a slip in which the pitot-tube and ASI were reading erroneously because the plane was basically flying sideways. The flaps felt the true airspeed. Just a guess, possibility.
 
I didn’t know that about a 182, but then again I’ve never flown one. I’m not very interested in flying a plane that I can’t slip under pretty much any condition. I guess that’s the taildragger guy in me.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I didn’t know that about a 182, but then again I’ve never flown one. I’m not very interested in flying a plane that I can’t slip under pretty much any condition. I guess that’s the taildragger guy in me.
Click to expand...
Nothing says you can’t do them in a 182. But if you need to do a forward slip with full flaps in a 182, you probably screwed something up. ;)
 
Agreed under normal conditions. I like to think that if the time ever comes when that fan stops making thrust I have a full toolbox to choose from.
 
I think there are at least two cautions appropriate for such slips.

1. reduce airspeed well below maximum flap speed.

2. Do not use full flaps and max slip close to the ground. An unexpected nose drop can be dangerous when low.

I have done full flap maximum slips in all the 172's and 182's that I have flown.

An example, IFR flight plan to an airport near Interstate 81 with no Instrument approach. Spotted I 81 through a hole in the clouds, notified my controller that I wished to descend with the ground in sight, but with separation, to visual conditions. He approved, I slowed to 50 Knots, and trimmed the elevator, extended 40 degrees of flaps, smoothly applied full RIGHT rudder and banked to the LEFT, until I had full rudder, and a standard rate turn to the LEFT.

The rate of climb was pegged down, my spiral was held in the middle of the break in the clouds, and the view straight down was perfect to I 81. Obviously, as long as I maintained sight of the highway under me, there was no danger of hitting a mountain. At about 1500 feet AGL, returned to normal flight to the south, and followed 81 to the airport.

The flight plan was converted to VFR when the descent was completed. The controller had no comment about the maneuver.

Since I do mine at reasonable airspeeds, the stress is much less than at higher speeds. None of our planes have had any distortion of the flaps.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Agreed under normal conditions. I like to think that if the time ever comes when that fan stops making thrust I have a full toolbox to choose from.
Click to expand...
I can’t imagine a circumstance where you would need that tool if the engine quits.
 
Stevarino said:
Hi Folks.
Gist of the conversation here seems to hinge on wording legal-eze vice physics, and not everyone here has removed a flap. And that's OK.
These photos are of a flap from my 182A that I am restoring (<1800 Airframe Hours). This wrinkling is from the PO performing Slips with Flaps Extended. It's currently sitting up the flight school's training room.
I first was amazed how lightweight these Flaps are. I'm guessing they each weigh less that 32 ounces unpainted.
Is this Flap Serviceable as is? That's up to the AI I'm dealing with I guess. Our lives often depend on their opinions.
I USED TO demonstrate slips to students using Flaps fully extended, explaining to them (with an arrogant confidence) the difference between the words AVOID and PROHIBITED on the Flap's Limitation Placard. Yes indeed, you can fly a Slip safely at a slower airspeed and get a greater Rate of Descent with Flaps Extended vs Retracted. But at what risks/costs? A plane fully loaded and Flaps fully extended, a Slip has to put a huge angular load on these lightweight "boards".
Click to expand...
That wrinkling isn't from slipping with flaps extended. It's from a sloppy replacement of the flap support arms. Slipping won't hurt your flaps. As a mechanic I looked after several 172s and 182s in a flight school, and was a flight instructor as well, and we had no flap problems from slipping. There WAS damage to flap skins from doing a lot of slow flight with flaps extended; the prop blast pounds the lower flap skins and causes cracking around the rivets along the trailing edges.

Flap support arm Service Bulletin: https://support.cessna.com/custsupt/contacts/pubs/ourpdf.pdf?as_id=22250
 
Stevarino said:
Hi Folks.
Gist of the conversation here seems to hinge on wording legal-eze vice physics, and not everyone here has removed a flap. And that's OK.
These photos are of a flap from my 182A that I am restoring (<1800 Airframe Hours). This wrinkling is from the PO performing Slips with Flaps Extended. It's currently sitting up the flight school's training room.
I first was amazed how lightweight these Flaps are. I'm guessing they each weigh less that 32 ounces unpainted.
Is this Flap Serviceable as is? That's up to the AI I'm dealing with I guess. Our lives often depend on their opinions.
I USED TO demonstrate slips to students using Flaps fully extended, explaining to them (with an arrogant confidence) the difference between the words AVOID and PROHIBITED on the Flap's Limitation Placard. Yes indeed, you can fly a Slip safely at a slower airspeed and get a greater Rate of Descent with Flaps Extended vs Retracted. But at what risks/costs? A plane fully loaded and Flaps fully extended, a Slip has to put a huge angular load on these lightweight "boards".

View attachment 104222 View attachment 104223 View attachment 104224

Just thought I'd share.

Steve
Click to expand...

I also own a 182A with 4500 airframe hours. My flaps look like new. Just how do you know your flap damage was caused by slips?

The Vfe is only 100 MPH, so I think using them at high speed could be the real issue. .02
 
I've slipped steep approaches in a 172, but rarely required in the heavier 182 with larger flaps.

@Stevarino really appreciate your sharing the flap pictures and experiences.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I don’t understand. Are you saying that if I ever lose power it would be impossible to come into a spot too high such that I need to bring it down?
Click to expand...
How many thousands of feet per minute do you think you’d need on short final?
 
I've always wondered what would happen if you slipped a 182 with 40 flaps deployed. I find the descent to be near vertical with 40 flaps as it is (or at least it feels like you can pretty much dive at will). In a slip would you just come straight down like a chute?
 
Kano_Wins said:
I've always wondered what would happen if you slipped a 182 with 40 flaps deployed. I find the descent to be near vertical with 40 flaps as it is (or at least it feels like you can pretty much dive at will). In a slip would you just come straight down like a streaming chute?
Click to expand...
FIFY. ;)
 
Kano_Wins said:
I've always wondered what would happen if you slipped a 182 with 40 flaps deployed. I find the descent to be near vertical with 40 flaps as it is (or at least it feels like you can pretty much dive at will). In a slip would you just come straight down like a chute?
Click to expand...

My guess is that a 40 degree flap glide ratio at 80mph is between 2:1 and 3:1. Google didn't seem to know, so now I may have to try it. I know my previous glider (HP16T in the Avatar) has about a 2:1 glide ratio at full flaps. A full flap approach felt like you were near standing vertical on the rudder pedals. This is in part due to the flaps causing it to pitch down more than it decreases the glide ratio. One owner tested the Speed limiting flaps on one and learned that a vertical dive required about a 101degree pitch over.

" terminal velocity in a vertical dive is 115 knots which results in flying at a fuselage angle 11 degrees beyond the vertical. "
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/HP-14/T-6.html

Brian
CFIIIG/ASEL.
 
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