Skyview vs. G3X

[WmInce]

I am interested in upgrading a panel.

For those folks familiar with both systems, could you please provide some pros and cons in comparing Skyview and G3X. Both seem good. Include VFR or IFR.

What are your favorite things about each?

 

[Jesse Saint]

What kind of plane?

 

[N1120A]

The G3x will drive the GFC500, which is basically the best autopilot on the market for those planes that are on the STC list. That is the biggest reason.

 

[Jamie Kirk]

I was going to go SkyView but I wanted full implementation within it with auto pilot.

 

[WmInce]

What kind of plane?

That's an open question . . . yet to be resolved.
Weighing all options. Avionics plays a part.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

The G3x will drive the GFC500, which is basically the best autopilot on the market for those planes that are on the STC list. That is the biggest reason.

What will the GFC500 do that the Skyview autopilot won't do? Just curious, because I just completed helping a friend install the HDX system with three axis autopilot in his Bonanza 35B, and it holds altitude and heading perfectly, tracks the magenta line perfectly, does every kind of vertical nav you can throw at it, maintains coordination, flies full approaches and holds, has the magic "level" button, and seems 100% reliable with safety measures built in to prevent uncommanded flight control movement.

 

[asicer]

That's an open question . . . yet to be resolved.
Weighing all options. Avionics plays a part.

Well then let's invert things a bit.

• If you go with a certified Dynon Skyview and you want an integrated autopilot, you are limited to C172, C182, Bo and Seneca.
• If you go with G3x and want an integrated autopilot, your options widen a bit.
  
• If you want a standalone autopilot, the G3x will supply course and heading to Century, Cessna, Honeywell/BK and STEC autopilots but for those that need it you'll still need to retain their native attitude source (e.g. a Century IIb autopilot will need a Century IIb compatible attitude indicator installed somewhere).
• I forget whether a Skyview will support an external autopilot. You'll have to do more digging on that front.

 

[Grum.Man]

You really can’t go wrong with either. Price is pretty close as well in the grand scheme. The autopilot will be a big deciding factor. If you go experimental I lean towards Dynon for a few reasons. For one I like the little ledge are the bottom with physical buttons on it. I hate touch screens in airplanes and the little lip is perfect for testing you hand. I also prefer Dynon business mode better. Everyone in their booth at Airventure knew their stuff, same can’t be said for the Garmin booth in my experience. If you are planing on going certified it’s hard to not go with the G3X

 

[N1120A]

What will the GFC500 do that the Skyview autopilot won't do? Just curious, because I just completed helping a friend install the HDX system with three axis autopilot in his Bonanza 35B, and it holds altitude and heading perfectly, tracks the magenta line perfectly, does every kind of vertical nav you can throw at it, maintains coordination, flies full approaches and holds, has the magic "level" button, and seems 100% reliable with safety measures built in to prevent uncommanded flight control movement.

As Ascier said, you have a much wider variety of aircraft to choose from with the GFC500, and you have complete integration with Garmin products if you use them.

Also, the G3x has buttons and knobs you can use, if you want them.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

As Ascier said, you have a much wider variety of aircraft to choose from with the GFC500, and you have complete integration with Garmin products if you use them.

Agree. Dynon really needs to put the STC process in high gear. The integration with other Garmin products might be a double edged sword. Any future gee-wiz non-Garmin avionics (and many today) will probably be incompatible with the G3X. I just can't see how Garmin's Walled Garden strategy benefits anyone but Garmin.

Also, the G3x has buttons and knobs you can use, if you want them.

??

 

[N1120A]

Agree. Dynon really needs to put the STC process in high gear. The integration with other Garmin products might be a double edged sword. Any future gee-wiz non-Garmin avionics (and many today) will probably be incompatible with the G3X. I just can't see how Garmin's Walled Garden strategy benefits anyone but Garmin.



??

If you mean the autopilot, the GFC500 is all buttons and knobs, and they work great.

Also, the G3x will definitely talk to the Avidyne GPS products, which are the only ones remotely competitive with the GTN.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

If you mean the autopilot, the GFC500 is all buttons and knobs, and they work great.

Also, the G3x will definitely talk to the Avidyne GPS products, which are the only ones remotely competitive with the GTN.

I'm still working on a decision, Dynon vs. Garmin. I am just about convinced I'll go the Dynon route (about $10-15k less for roughly the same features and I can do the install myself if I want to), so this dialog is timely and valuable.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

What will the GFC500 do that the Skyview autopilot won't do?

To me, the big thing the GFC500 + G3X Touch + G5 combo will do that nothing else on the market will do is provide full autopilot functionality in the case of the loss of your primary flight display. Both the G3X and the G5 are capable of acting as the brains of the GFC500, so if you lose either one, you'll still have the autopilot available and controllable.

The integration with other Garmin products might be a double edged sword. Any future gee-wiz non-Garmin avionics (and many today) will probably be incompatible with the G3X. I just can't see how Garmin's Walled Garden strategy benefits anyone but Garmin.

It also benefits customers who like all their gadgets to work well together.

The "walled garden" strategy works for companies that like to have enough control of the entire user experience to ensure that it's a good one. All too often, having multiple companies involved just leaves the customer holding the bag when something goes wrong. "That's Microsoft's problem." "That's Dell's problem." etc...

 

[Datadriver]

I am interested in upgrading a panel.

For those folks familiar with both systems, could you please provide some pros and cons in comparing Skyview and G3X. Both seem good. Include VFR or IFR.

What are your favorite things about each?

NAV database for Dynon is free as opposed to subscription for Garmin. Both will charge you for on-screen charts.

 

[N1120A]

I'm still working on a decision, Dynon vs. Garmin. I am just about convinced I'll go the Dynon route (about $10-15k less for roughly the same features and I can do the install myself if I want to), so this dialog is timely and valuable.

I don't see how the Dynon can be $10-15k less than the Garmin, where the most expensive Garmin solution (10+7 with EIS) costs about $15-16k.

I'm assuming certified.

To me, the big thing the GFC500 + G3X Touch + G5 combo will do that nothing else on the market will do is provide full autopilot functionality in the case of the loss of your primary flight display. Both the G3X and the G5 are capable of acting as the brains of the GFC500, so if you lose either one, you'll still have the autopilot available and controllable.



It also benefits customers who like all their gadgets to work well together.

The "walled garden" strategy works for companies that like to have enough control of the entire user experience to ensure that it's a good one. All too often, having multiple companies involved just leaves the customer holding the bag when something goes wrong. "That's Microsoft's problem." "That's Dell's problem." etc...

There is no question that the GFC500/G3x/G5 combo is awesome. In fact, when you do the 2 screen G3x solution, you have further reversionary protection in case of an equipment failure (not an AHRS failure, of which the G3x only has one).

Also, the walled garden thing is kinda BS, with the exception of the GFC500 being tied to the G5 and/or G3x (at that price, I can see why). Garmin's stuff works well with other products, even very dated ones. My friend's Arrow has an ancient Piper Autocontrol III (Century IIb) AP, and the G5 can and does drive it. It will hold a rock solid LOC and will provide safely accurate GPSS. Lots of folks have kept their older STEC APs and sold the GPSS modules out of them, switching to the G5. The GTN/GNS will drive basically anything. G5s happily take information from Avidyne navigators, and on and on.

Yeah, GP will only talk to Garmin products, but a GDL is better than a Stratus anyway and lots of people are stuck on FF.

NAV database for Dynon is free as opposed to subscription for Garmin. Both will charge you for on-screen charts.

Maybe VFR nav, but you are still paying for the IFR portion. With the packages Garmin offers, it really isn't particularly expensive to run a panel.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I am just about convinced I'll go the Dynon route (about $10-15k less for roughly the same features and I can do the install myself if I want to)

Not on a certified airplane you can't (do the install yourself, that is). And if you have an experimental, you can do the Garmin install yourself too.

Also, from your avatar, it appears you fly a Cardinal RG. The GFC 500 is currently in the process of certification for your plane (I would expect it'll be done by Sun-n-Fun in April). The Dynon autopilot is currently only certified on the 172 and some Bonanza models, and it'll likely be a few years before they get down to the Cardinal RG.

I don't see how the Dynon can be $10-15k less than the Garmin, where the most expensive Garmin solution (10+7 with EIS) costs about $15-16k.

Assuming single 10" display, backup, and autopilot for installation in a Bo:

Dynon:
"Basic Package" (includes 10" PFD + D10A backup): $9,140
Autopilot (3 servo): $6,310
Engine Monitoring: $1,859
IFR Connectivity Kit: $499
STC: $2,000
Total equipment cost: $19,808

Garmin:
G3X Touch 10" w/6 cylinder EIS: $13,395
G5 backup display: $2,249
GFC 500 (3 servo): $8,995
Total equipment cost: $24,639

So, the difference between the cost of the equipment + STC for certified aircraft appears to be under $5K, and the Garmin combo is available for many more aircraft. If you don't want an autopilot, the list of aircraft available for both solutions gets much longer, but Garmin has a huge leg up on Dynon when the autopilot is included.

 

[N1120A]

There's a chance Garmin doesn't end up doing YD for the 177, so that would shave off almost $2000.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There's a chance Garmin doesn't end up doing YD for the 177, so that would shave off almost $2000.

That actually brings something else up. Looking at those quotes above, I chose a "3 servo" autopilot for each. Dynon says they're for pitch, roll, and yaw. Garmin with three servos would normally be pitch, roll, and pitch trim, with yaw damper as the 4th.

Is there even a manual electric pitch trim option with Dynon? And why wouldn't they have included it in their Bo example pricing?

 

[N1120A]

That actually brings something else up. Looking at those quotes above, I chose a "3 servo" autopilot for each. Dynon says they're for pitch, roll, and yaw. Garmin with three servos would normally be pitch, roll, and pitch trim, with yaw damper as the 4th.

Is there even a manual electric pitch trim option with Dynon? And why wouldn't they have included it in their Bo example pricing?

Not sure. Maybe the Dynon relies on the standard electric pitch trim, if equipped?

 

[JEB]

The G3x will drive the GFC500, which is basically the best autopilot on the market for those planes that are on the STC list. That is the biggest reason.

This is true if you're working with an Experimental aircraft, but for Certified, you have to have a G5 with the GFC500.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Not sure. Maybe the Dynon relies on the standard electric pitch trim, if equipped?

But if that's the case, it's going to rely on you to change the trim rather than doing it for you automatically. I was never a fan of that setup.

This is true if you're working with an Experimental aircraft, but for Certified, you have to have a G5 with the GFC500.

I think the point was that the G3X can *also* drive the GFC500, giving unmatched (for piston GA at least) redundancy.

 

[asicer]

Assuming single 10" display, backup, and autopilot for installation in a Bo:

Dynon:
"Basic Package" (includes 10" PFD + D10A backup): $9,140
Autopilot (3 servo): $6,310
Engine Monitoring: $1,859
IFR Connectivity Kit: $499
STC: $2,000
Total equipment cost: $19,808

Garmin:
G3X Touch 10" w/6 cylinder EIS: $13,395
G5 backup display: $2,249
GFC 500 (3 servo): $8,995
Total equipment cost: $24,639

So, the difference between the cost of the equipment + STC for certified aircraft appears to be under $5K, and the Garmin combo is available for many more aircraft. If you don't want an autopilot, the list of aircraft available for both solutions gets much longer, but Garmin has a huge leg up on Dynon when the autopilot is included.

That's not including harnesses and labor. My understanding is that Dynon has a significant advantage in this area. I believe @Jesse Saint can weigh in on this matter much better than I can.

 

[JEB]

But if that's the case, it's going to rely on you to change the trim rather than doing it for you automatically. I was never a fan of that setup.



I think the point was that the G3X can *also* drive the GFC500, giving unmatched (for piston GA at least) redundancy.

I see you're point, yes. The G3X can drive the GFC500. In fact it actually a provides an excellent level of redundancy that most autopilots don't have. To install the unit in a Certified aircraft, the STC requires that you also include a G5. The G5 is primary, but the G3X is an automatic failover as I understand things.

I'm actually at the tail end of having a full new panel installed. Dual G3X, GFC500 with the G5, GNC255, GTN650 GTX345. Gonna be a hell of a nice panel!

 

[Stewartb]

You really can’t go wrong with either. Price is pretty close as well in the grand scheme. The autopilot will be a big deciding factor. If you go experimental I lean towards Dynon for a few reasons. For one I like the little ledge are the bottom with physical buttons on it. I hate touch screens in airplanes and the little lip is perfect for testing you hand. I also prefer Dynon business mode better. Everyone in their booth at Airventure knew their stuff, same can’t be said for the Garmin booth in my experience. If you are planing on going certified it’s hard to not go with the G3X

Which do you have real experience with?

 

[Stewartb]

Love my G3X Touch. Experimental. Has 2-axis auto pilot. Very familiar for a long time Garmin Pilot user.

 

[N1120A]

I see you're point, yes. The G3X can drive the GFC500. In fact it actually a provides an excellent level of redundancy that most autopilots don't have. To install the unit in a Certified aircraft, the STC requires that you also include a G5. The G5 is primary, but the G3X is an automatic failover as I understand things.

I'm actually at the tail end of having a full new panel installed. Dual G3X, GFC500 with the G5, GNC255, GTN650 GTX345. Gonna be a hell of a nice panel!

The G5 is part of the STC because the G3x is single AHRS, regardless of how many screens you have. G5 provides a second AHRS source, so you can dump the backup 6 pack instruments. The G3x most definitely acts as the primary driver of the GFC500, with the G5 being the backup.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I don't think the G3X for certified has a backup battery, does it? That's a deal breaker for me. I have the Dynon HDX system in my Piper PA32 and LOVE it. HDX and D10A independent AHRS and separate backup batteries....

 

[N1120A]

I don't think the G3X for certified has a backup battery, does it? That's a deal breaker for me. I have the Dynon HDX system in my Piper PA32 and LOVE it. HDX and D10A independent AHRS and separate backup batteries....

I believe there are back up batteries available, but it doesn't come with one. The G5 has a backup battery, and it lasts approximately 4-5 times longer than the HDX will.

 

[Jesse Saint]

The G5 has a backup battery, but the G3X doesn’t. I don’t know of any 3rd party backup battery certified for the G3X. Both the Dynon HDX and the D10A backup have backup batteries.

The Dynon is MUCH easier to wire and install, which adds to the price disparity.

Dynon does not make an electric trim system. They are soon to release a module that will connect to your existing trim system and give auto trim when using the auto pilot.

Dynon is making slower progress than Garmin on adding to the list of models that are certified with the auto pilot. There are a couple of reasons for this, including man-power, FAA support level, FAA track record, etc. The more they get approved, the faster it will go, I think. They are soon to release the Seneca, then most Bonanzas, then the 180/182/185 line. All of these are in development, and actual models will be determined by the FAA. They have also bought a Mooney to develop the auto pilot for, so Mooney’s are next in line. After that, they don’t know, but I assume Cardinals, Comanches, Pa-28’s and Pa-32’s are high on the list.

 

[steingar]

Mooneys and Bo's are good ones to have your autopilot work in. Lots of Skyhawks fly sans autopilot just fine, folks use them as VFR puddle jumpers. Complex aircraft tend to be travel machines and see more IFR. What autopilots they have are getting very old. I think they'll sell more autopilots to complex drivers than Skyhawk drivers, even if they're more Skyhawks.

 

[Jesse Saint]

Mooneys and Bo's are good ones to have your autopilot work in. Lots of Skyhawks fly sans autopilot just fine, folks use them as VFR puddle jumpers. Complex aircraft tend to be travel machines and see more IFR. What autopilots they have are getting very old. I think they'll sell more autopilots to complex drivers than Skyhawk drivers, even if they're more Skyhawks.

I agree that more complex airplanes will utilize the auto pilot more, but a lot of 172’s are getting it too. The auto pilot for the 172 costs less than half as much as a Bonanza with yaw damper.

 

[asicer]

Mooneys and Bo's are good ones to have your autopilot work in. Lots of Skyhawks fly sans autopilot just fine, folks use them as VFR puddle jumpers. Complex aircraft tend to be travel machines and see more IFR. What autopilots they have are getting very old. I think they'll sell more autopilots to complex drivers than Skyhawk drivers, even if they're more Skyhawks.

An autopilot is necessary to qualify a Skyhawk as a TAA, which is useful for commercial training. Thus, I think there's a demand for autopilots in Skyhawks.

 

[ISU_Radar]

The G5 has a backup battery, but the G3X doesn’t. I don’t know of any 3rd party backup battery certified for the G3X. Both the Dynon HDX and the D10A backup have backup batteries.

The Dynon is MUCH easier to wire and install, which adds to the price disparity.

Dynon does not make an electric trim system. They are soon to release a module that will connect to your existing trim system and give auto trim when using the auto pilot.

Dynon is making slower progress than Garmin on adding to the list of models that are certified with the auto pilot. There are a couple of reasons for this, including man-power, FAA support level, FAA track record, etc. The more they get approved, the faster it will go, I think. They are soon to release the Seneca, then most Bonanzas, then the 180/182/185 line. All of these are in development, and actual models will be determined by the FAA. They have also bought a Mooney to develop the auto pilot for, so Mooney’s are next in line. After that, they don’t know, but I assume Cardinals, Comanches, Pa-28’s and Pa-32’s are high on the list.

I am disappointed that they are not actively working on the PA-28's as that makes more sense to me than the Seneca's, and would cover a lot more potential customers. Of course I might be a bit biased.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

The Dynon, with one 10" screen, and D10A backup, ADS-B IN, ARC-429 interface, and full Engine Monitoring is $14,396. I can indeed do the installation, with IA supervision. When the autopilot is STC'd, it'll cost $2660 for roll and pitch servos and control panel and if I want electric trim, my only option is the STEC at $5500 (parts and labor) and Dynon states they will eventually drive this trim, along with Century autopilot trims, etc. So the Dynon, with autopilot, is $17,056. This includes all mounts, cables, etc.

FlyingCheeseHead, where are you getting your prices? According to the Garmin site, a 10" with EIS (4 cylinder) is $12,995. That's all the price info I can find, other than the experimental hardware prices. I thought there was a spreadsheet when it was first brought to market, but I can't find it. At the time, I remember a $6-8k price difference. If you have a price list, would you mind posting it?

Also, when discussing autopilots, trim is trim, and not considered an axis. Some also include altitude hold as a third axis, and still others consider GPSS as a third axis. Two axis = roll and pitch, three axis = roll, pitch, yaw.

 

[Stewartb]

It sucks to be certified. My G3X Touch drives my 2-axis autopilot out of the box. 2 servos (the same ones as certified) cost $1500 total. It works great.

I power mine through a TCW battery backup unit. It not only has backup but it powers the unit without interruption during startup since the unit takes some time to spin up and a power surge like when starting will reset the initiation sequence. Works great. I have no doubt the Dynon box is good. So is the G3X. Choices, choices. We all win as a result.

My all-in cost was $13,320.00 for the big screen, EIS, magnetometer, ADHRS, remote comm, remote ADS-B txp, waas GPS, GDL39R, and all the antennae and connectors. The 2 servos were extra.

 

[JohnAJohnson]

It sucks to be certified

Concur! But it ain't as bad as it used to be

 

[flyingcheesehead]

FlyingCheeseHead, where are you getting your prices? According to the Garmin site, a 10" with EIS (4 cylinder) is $12,995. That's all the price info I can find, other than the experimental hardware prices. I thought there was a spreadsheet when it was first brought to market, but I can't find it. At the time, I remember a $6-8k price difference. If you have a price list, would you mind posting it?

I got them off their respective web sites. On Dynon's site, they have an example quote for the Bonanza with a lot of component prices in it. On Garmin's site, if you want to look at a different configuration (ie 6cyl vs. 4cyl EIS) you just click the boxes at the top of the G3X page and the price will change.

Also, when discussing autopilots, trim is trim, and not considered an axis. Some also include altitude hold as a third axis, and still others consider GPSS as a third axis. Two axis = roll and pitch, three axis = roll, pitch, yaw.

Altitude hold is a basic pitch axis, not really an axis on its own. Likewise, GPSS is a feature that's added to the roll axis, and is not an axis in and of itself. Your final sentence there nails it. Generally, the first axis is roll, the second is pitch, the third is yaw.

However, while pitch trim isn't an axis, it does have its own servo.

It sucks to be certified. My G3X Touch drives my 2-axis autopilot out of the box. 2 servos (the same ones as certified) cost $1500 total. It works great.

I recall the year that the G3X Touch and the autopilot were first announced for experimentals at Oshkosh, and I made the mistake of looking at the prices. I have never been angrier at the FAA than that particular moment...

 

[C-1 PILOT]

Ive flow with both and currently have dual G3X Touch screens, Garmin servos and the Garmin 307 controller in my Sling.

What I find curious in this thread, no one really evaluates the displays them selves. Again, I’ve flown with both, but find the G3X displays exceptional, for brightness, sharpness and presentation, compared to Dynon. Don’t get me wrong, you really cannot go wrong with either, but at the end of the day IMO, Garmin is the overall winner. Again, in my opinion.

 

[Jesse Saint]

Ive flow with both and currently have dual G3X Touch screens, Garmin servos and the Garmin 307 controller in my Sling.

What I find curious in this thread, no one really evaluates the displays them selves. Again, I’ve flown with both, but find the G3X displays exceptional, for brightness, sharpness and presentation, compared to Dynon. Don’t get me wrong, you really cannot go wrong with either, but at the end of the day IMO, Garmin is the overall winner. Again, in my opinion.

Did you fly the HDX or the SkyView Classic/Touch? Huge difference. The HDX doesn’t take second seat to the G3X in any aspect, IMHO, and I have flown both systems extensively.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

Did you fly the HDX or the SkyView Classic/Touch? Huge difference. The HDX doesn’t take second seat to the G3X in any aspect, IMHO, and I have flown both systems extensively.

Good point, I’ve flown the Classic/Touch and now fly behind the G3X in my plane. They are both premier systems, I prefer Garmin.