Sketchy Flight School Maintenance/Horrible Management

[Probablyflying]

Hey guys
I’m trying to get some insight as to what to do with my situation. It’s kinda a long story but I’ll try to make it brief as possible.
I went into this school to do an initial commercial multi. I have all the requirements met already. The solo time, all the xc time etc was done and signed off for.
I simply needed instruction in their Seneca and some checkride prep. I wanted to get it done in about a week and a half and they assured me that was no problem. I made sure the plane was not going to go into 100hr soon as I didn’t want that to happen right in the middle of training. She (the owner) assured me there was over 25 hours on the tach and I was really the only one flying it. I told her I live out of state and only have a set amount of time off work to do this. She assured me that was no problem.
I bought a block rate for $3100 of 10 hours and started the next day. Within two flights they informed me someone messed up the book numbers and the plane actually only had 8 hours on it and that suddenly there was another multi student flying everyday. Those 8 hours got used up in 2 days and of course it went into 100hr right in the middle of my training. She told me that it would be a 48 hour process and back Sunday. It went in on Friday and they brought in help to get it done. Of course, a 40 year old plane is gonna have stuff wrong with it and shockingly they can’t get parts on a Sunday (that’s sarcasm!). So she says it’ll be back Monday. Wasn’t back. Then I call at 5pm Monday and she goes “they will be walking in with the parts any minute.” I know for a fact the parts store they use closes at 4:30.
Due to this I had to push the checkride back that I already scheduled. So that adds a week to this whole process and it gets better.
They consistently have issues with the left engine and say they cleaned the fuel filters in 100hr and all is well. We taxi out and have this major left main brake drag. Come to find out. The new mechanic they hired didn’t compress the pistons so it wasn’t retracting. We couldn’t fly so that’s a whole day gone. The next day we try again and get to take off. We get in the air and -no airspeed. They washed the plane after 100hr and apparently blew water all up in the pitot static system. Come back and land and another day scrapped. Keep in mind my checkride is less than a week away at this point.
So that gets fixed. We do a night flight and it goes well. We get on the ground and there’s oil all down the cowling and less than 6qts in the engine. So it burned over a quart in under an hour. Seems bad no?
They take it in and look it over. The same mechanic that messed up the brakes tells me “it’s fine it’s gonna leak”. They put it back in service and I take another flight. Still leaking but at this point but I need to fly.
So now to the icing on the cake. My checkride is in 4 days. I ask them for the maintenance binder to get pics of all the inspections for the DPE. I come to find out the transponder is not current. It expired last year. Somehow she “forgot” to get it inspected. So we have been flying around a plane that isn’t technically airworthy. She gives me every excuse in the book and says she will get it inspected tomorrow. Guess what! That doesn’t happen. They have to relocate the plane to another airport. Since it’s not current you have to get a flight permit. But why do that when you can just full send it? Yep they just flew the plane that’s not legal over to get it inspected. I have all the documents to prove this and really don’t know what to do. I have to push my checkride back yet again and this week and a half process is now almost 4 weeks in. If I decide to report them to the feds, what’s involved in that? What would you guys do in my shoes? I haven’t got one apology or any form of compensation for my trouble.
Well if you read all this I appreciate it. I know it was a bit long but wanted to see what others would do.
Thanks!

 

[k9medic]

I would find someplace else to be and recoup what I have spent. Demand financial recovery. Wouldn't bother with the feds as it most likely won't go anywhere and would be a waste of time.

 

[Probablyflying]

I would find someplace else to be and recoup what I have spent. Demand financial recovery. Wouldn't bother with the feds as it most likely won't go anywhere and would be a waste of time.

She has made it clear there are no refunds.

 

[Magman]

Sorry for the mess. Part 61? Feds won’t want to be bothered. I would shut

up about the “ oil leak but I had to fly” also. Not Airworthy for transponder cert?

Placard INOPERATIVE and fly VFR depending on airspace restrictions. Can we say

“ shoestring “ here? How does it take all day for the brake? No tech on site?

What I’ve seen with Flight Schools is folks complain but fly anyway. Things seldom

get fixed unless they are written up.

 

[bflynn]

She has made it clear there are no refunds.

Refund, no refund...it's a grey line. Maybe she can give you unspent money back and you can agree not to discuss the situation with the FSDO? "Look, I need those funds to get my training done. If I have to, I'll go ask the FSDO if there's any sort of regulation covering misrepresenting airplane. I mean, I don't WANT to do that, they'd probably ground you and then we'll both be out. Just give me $X back and I'll find somewhere else to go."

Ultimately, it feels like she has misrepresented the airplane to you, so there's a potential legal route too.

 

[geezer]

She is trying to scare you out of hiring an attorney.

You should not be charged for the time instruction was canceled when the plane had an airworthiness fail. You should only be charged with productive flight time.

I had an issue with a flight school adding a charge that they had agreed they would not make. The real squawk on my part was Instrument instruction with an instructor who I felt was incompetent. When the credit was refused, I advised that I was contacting the FAA about his CFII. The credit was immediate. The CFI had failed his I checkride for the third time. I passed my checkride on the first time.

Keep in mind that one reason she is lying to you is she is barely solvent, and trying to survive in business. She has had bad luck timed with your experience with her, so be prepared to make some compromise if she does offer to give partial credit. Start out with a list of what you are willing to pay for, and what you are unwilling to pay for, biases in your favor, and have in mind, not on paper what you might give back.

Do not hire an attorney unless she makes no offer to refund money. If you do hire an attorney, go for a complete refund, as you did not get any training in an airworthy aircraft.

 

[Skyrys62]

She has made it clear there are no refunds.

She had also made this clear:

She (the owner) assured me there was over 25 hours on the tach and I was really the only one flying it. I told her I live out of state and only have a set amount of time off work to do this. She assured me that was no problem.

I'd demand my money back and let them know I'll be speaking with an attorney, seeking full refund plus attorney fees, etc.

 

[Bell206]

If I decide to report them to the feds, what’s involved in that?

Unfortunately, you have also flown this aircraft within the same time period as your stated maintenance issues which could get you more involved in the "report" than you want. Did you have a written agreement for this block time purchase or was this all word of mouth for your purchase of the $3100 of block time?

 

[rhkennerly]

She has made it clear there are no refunds.

I was going to say something snarky, like "I don't see the problem." Unfortunately, what you describe is how a lot of outfits operate--shoestring. (Decades ago, I flew with an outfit that only had one airworthiness certificate for 5 Cessna 150s. You'd take it with you on the check ride & hope the DPE didn't notice--they never did. It was a different time.)

The FBO owes you 10 hours. How many are left? I'm sure your rental agreement covers downtime & maintenance problems. What does it say?

Missing a transponder service & test isn't a major issue. That can happen to anyone. If an A&E signed off on the airplane, the school is covered as far as your agreement. After all, they've presented you with an airworthy plane to fly--says so right here where the A&E returned the Seneca to service. Technically, your beef is with the A&E, not the company that hired him. What do they know?

The plane made the journey to a remote avionics shop & back. Somebody had faith in it, just not you. I don't think the FBO owes you meals & hotel. That goes with traveling away from home to train. They don't owe you weather, either.

The question for you is, do you put the AME in this plane & risk it or not? Could be an opportunity to demonstrate your engine out prowess...for real.

I'll be watching the NTSB pages to learn what you decide to do.

 

[Probablyflying]

Unfortunately, you have also flown this aircraft within the same time period as your stated maintenance issues which could get you more involved in the "report" than you want. Did you have a written agreement for this block time purchase or was this all word of mouth for your purchase of the $3100 of block time?

No rental agreement. That was definitely my fault. Everyone was word of mouth and I haven’t signed a single thing. Very different from my previous school. As far as the report. I’m not PIC of the aircraft since I’m not rated in it. And obviously I didn’t know it didn’t have the inspection. Not sure it that implicates me somehow or not.

 

[Probablyflying]

I was going to say something snarky, like "I don't see the problem." Unfortunately, what you describe is how a lot of outfits operate--shoestring. (Decades ago, I flew with an outfit that only had one airworthiness certificate for 5 Cessna 150s. You'd take it with you on the check ride & hope the DPE didn't notice--they never did. It was a different time.)

The FBO owes you 10 hours. How many are left? I'm sure your rental agreement covers downtime & maintenance problems. What does it say?

Missing a transponder service & test isn't a major issue. That can happen to anyone. If an A&E signed off on the airplane, the school is covered as far as your agreement. After all, they've presented you with an airworthy plane to fly--says so right here where the A&E returned the Seneca to service. Technically, your beef is with the A&E, not the company that hired him. What do they know?

The plane made the journey to a remote avionics shop & back. Somebody had faith in it, just not you. I don't think the FBO owes you meals & hotel. That goes with traveling away from home to train. They don't owe you weather, either.

The question for you is, do you put the AME in this plane & risk it or not? Could be an opportunity to demonstrate your engine out prowess...for real.

I'll be watching the NTSB pages to learn what you decide to do.

As soon as they figured out it wasn’t “airworthy” from inspection point of view they grounded it. An instructor flew it over. There was nothing in the logs saying an A&P signed off on it other than the 100hr. I know they don’t really do much when it comes to avionics.

 

[PaulS]

I think a lot of potential pilots get discouraged and quit due to slip shod outfits like this.

 

[Hang 4]

One thing to offer would be to pay for the time flown at the regular rate, then get whatever is left back from the block you bought. Not "fair" to you, but might be a way to get something with out getting FAA or attorney involved.

 

[Bell206]

No rental agreement.

Well, that doesn't give you much to stand on. Perhaps count your losses, get what remaining money you can, and look elsewhere. And regardless what others say, in my experience with attorneys you'll be hard pressed to find one for only $3100 in damages.

As far as the report. I’m not PIC of the aircraft since I’m not rated in it. And obviously I didn’t know it didn’t have the inspection. Not sure it that implicates me somehow or not.

Do you really want to find out? I'm all for taking things to next level especially on maintenance when necessary. But based on what I've read above reporting this will just add to your issues than correct any in my opinion.

 

[Tools]

It’s an FBO? City or county airport? Might wanna poke your nose in the airport authority office, they won’t want the liability of an outfit like that and have more immediate power over her than the feds might. Food for thought.

 

[Probablyflying]

It’s an FBO? City or county airport? Might wanna poke your nose in the airport authority office, they won’t want the liability of an outfit like that and have more immediate power over her than the feds might. Food for thought.

City. Actually a really good idea thanks. Didn’t even consider that. The airport authority here is no joke.

 

[Brad W]

bummer.

What would I do? Hard to say if I were caught in the heat of it....but I think what I would do is to push harder for a refund of the time of the block not flown. I would not expect them to refund the time I flew already. I think that would be fair given your situation of being from out of town and having a limited time.
But if they flat out will not refund any of it...and if I were local and could use the time later...then I'd just try really hard to let it go and find patience.
Go someplace else if at all possible, and if that even made sense, and start over to get the rating if I was in a hurry...then I'd plan on using up the unused prepaid time for practice or whatever
and then walk away.
Nothing is gained from getting mad about it.

I am sympathetic to you though. I was not under any similar time crunches but I don't have my muti rating today because of a very similar situation. The schools twin (an old Apache 150) was constantly up and down. Just when I'd start getting sharp, the thing would go down for some issue and often would be down for a while. I remember several times for some problem with the door. I really don't recall what else...except for the straw that broke the back of my rating.... After starting, stopping, getting rusty, starting back, repeat... and spending way more money that I should have needed to, I was finally signed off for my ride ( i honestly didn't feel quite ready, but then I was a bit of a perfectionist at that time and was very hard on myself). Preflighting the plane I discovered a rather significant fuel leak. Turns out the top sides of the bladders were dry rotted. They refused to fix it. Tried to get me to fly with half tanks because it only leaked when the level was high.... I did a lot of research and could find no justification that this would be kosher...let alone legal or not.
Eventually after getting completely rusty again, a very long time later they agreed to help me to fly at a nearby school at the next airport. They had an apache 160. I think they might have paid a little bit of time as good will....or maybe for a little bit of CFI time.... Anyway, by that time I was extremely rusty and felt completely behind..and would have had to spend more money than I was willing to get back up to checkride confidence...
so I never finished. I regret just not going right away to another school to finish up. I guess I kept hoping they would fix the plane. Anyway, I would never have used the rating anyway most likely, but it is a regret...

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

If it’s a safety issue and you’re not comfortable flying it, walk away,

Complaining to a third party entity won’t fix your dilemma or get your money back. What it might do is save someone else some grief, and that would be my only motivation to report it.

If you are comfortable with its safety, fly off the rest of your money and do your checkride.

Too simple? No. Just pick a door.

 

[flyingron]

. As far as the report. I’m not PIC of the aircraft since I’m not rated in it.

You are if there isn't anybody else in the aircraft. Solo time is PIC time and you will be PIC on the checkride as the FAA strongly discourages the examiners from being so. By the way, most DPEs want to see the actual maintenance logs NOT just phone photos.

 

[SkyDog58]

If you are prepping for a commercial checkride, you should have the knowledge to go along with it. Just reading your rant tells me that you don’t.

You seem to equate an out of date transponder with being unairworthy. That is not the case. You state that it needs a special flight permit to fly it with the out of date transponder. This is incorrect as well. A transponder is an operational requirement, not an airworthiness requirement. And it is only an operational requirement in certain airspace.

So by all means report them to the FAA for nonexistent violations. The only one on the hook for anything is any PIC who flew the aircraft in rule airspace with the expired transponder and without ATC permission. Who was that?

I am not saying that the school doesn’t have problems as they apparently do. What I am saying is that you did not do your due diligence before flying the plane and that you lack a full understanding of the regulations that you apparently feel were violated. Discuss it with an ASI. I’m sure you will be enlightened.

Keep us posted.

 

[Probablyflying]

If you are prepping for a commercial checkride, you should have the knowledge to go along with it. Just reading your rant tells me that you don’t.

You seem to equate an out of date transponder with being unairworthy. That is not the case. You state that it needs a special flight permit to fly it with the out of date transponder. This is incorrect as well. A transponder is an operational requirement, not an airworthiness requirement. And it is only an operational requirement in certain airspace.

So by all means report them to the FAA for nonexistent violations. The only one on the hook for anything is any PIC who flew the aircraft in rule airspace with the expired transponder and without ATC permission. Who was that?

I am not saying that the school doesn’t have problems as they apparently do. What I am saying is that you did not do your due diligence before flying the plane and that you lack a full understanding of the regulations that you apparently feel were violated. Discuss it with an ASI. I’m sure you will be enlightened.

Keep us posted.

Flying in a Charlie. Not even gonna address the other stuff. It was not placard inop so it is indeed not airworthy. Multiple mechanics and another DPE agree on that.

 

[TommyG]

It’s an FBO? City or county airport? Might wanna poke your nose in the airport authority office, they won’t want the liability of an outfit like that and have more immediate power over her than the feds might. Food for thought.

most likely as long as the rent is paid, the town or county will not care.

 

[schmookeeg]

Definitely report it to the feds, then they can suspend your license for flying on the bum inspection compliance and delay your checkride a few more months into the bargain.

Sorry the savings didn't pan out on the ghetto seneca rental.

 

[Scott_M]

As soon as they figured out it wasn’t “airworthy” from inspection point of view they grounded it. An instructor flew it over. There was nothing in the logs saying an A&P signed off on it other than the 100hr. I know they don’t really do much when it comes to avionics.

I haven't turned wrenches in years as an A&P, but isn't checking the date on the transponder and the ELT, etc included in a 100 Hour?

 

[Magman]

“ Airworthy” would not be the correct terminology. See #20.

Checking dates and an INOPERATIVE placard could be done by an A & P during
a 100 Hour Inspection.

I will test the ELT during an Annual Inspection and install the placard if it does
not pass 91.207d.

If possible ; testing the unit before battery replacement can bea good move if
the unit is toast. The American-King AD is a good example of this.

 

[Clip4]

You violated rule #1 of being a flight school student. Don’t pay in advance. Flight schools that offer block time have cash flow issues and want to live on your advance payment. If you paid this by credit card, dispute the charge because the school has failed to provide an airworthy aircraft.

 

[Gary Ward]

You violated rule #1 of being a flight school student. Don’t pay in advance. Flight schools that offer block time have cash flow issues and want to live on your advance payment. If you paid this by credit card, dispute the charge because the school has failed to provide an airworthy aircraft.

I agree, never pay ahead IMO. I let them keep a credit card on file.
To the OP, What part of the world are you located?

Once you get what you want from the flight school then I would give the review online you feel they deserve verses calling someone to report them. It does sound like a poorly run outfit. I hate leaky engines also, bunch of BS.

My transponder quit working last year. I called the my avionics shop across town, they suggested I call approach and let them know I would be flying under their bravo (like I usually do) going over the avionics shop with no transponder. Approach said it is no problem with them and almost seemed like I was bothering them. He did ask me to call him back once I got to the avionics shop which I did. Seemed to be no big deal to approach.

In hindsite, would it be appropriate to ask to see the logs of the plane you want to train in before signing up? Then you can see for yourself how up to date they are and how many hours since the 100 hour?

 

[Magman]

Having been down the road I would rarely allow Aircraft Records to leave the office. Too often items are misplaced even within the binder.

It would be no issue to provides copies IF a list was provided of what they want.

 

[schmookeeg]

You violated rule #1 of being a flight school student. Don’t pay in advance. Flight schools that offer block time have cash flow issues and want to live on your advance payment. If you paid this by credit card, dispute the charge because the school has failed to provide an airworthy aircraft.

Not offering block time would be foolish on the part of any flight school. You'd be amazed at the number of people who would drop a deposit, sometimes sizable, and never show up to claim it. I think we averaged 40-50k annually in stale deposits on our books.

It's a terrible business with a ~4% gross margin. Every flight school has cash flow issues, not just the ones offering block rates.

 

[DaleB]

The instant I saw,

I bought a block rate

I knew this wasn't going to be a happy story. I got taken for a smaller amount when I paid my first flight school for block time... about a week before they went TU.

Not offering block time would be foolish on the part of any flight school. You'd be amazed at the number of people who would drop a deposit, sometimes sizable, and never show up to claim it. I think we averaged 40-50k annually in stale deposits on our books.

I don't know if it varies by state, but where I live you're required to turn that money over to the state after a set amount of time, and they publish a list of people they're holding money for.

 

[schmookeeg]

I don't know if it varies by state, but where I live you're required to turn that money over to the state after a set amount of time, and they publish a list of people they're holding money for.

Yes that happens all the time I'm sure

Does starbucks give my gift card money to the state if I don't spend it all in a few years?

 

[geezer]

DaleB said:

I don't know if it varies by state, but where I live you're required to turn that money over to the state after a set amount of time, and they publish a list of people they're holding money for.

Kentucky has such a law, I searched my father's name, and found that they had some of his money, fort more than half a century!

I filed a claim, and received it, the stale balance from a savings account. Not many of todays dollars, but about three months pay at his late 1930's pay rate. No interest is paid on those accounts after the state seizes them.

My brother and sister joined me for a good dinner in memory of him, and it was used up.

 

[Magman]

Yes that happens all the time I'm sure

Does starbucks give my gift card money to the state if I don't spend it all in a few years?

I hate restaurant gift cards with expiration dates.

Why is that legal?

They have your money up front.

Delaying should only result in smaller portions.

 

[SkyDog58]

Gift cards expire because as long as they are on the books, they are a liability and show up on the balance sheet. The companies wound rather take it as in income and have it on the income statement even if it is taxed. At least that is what an accounting type told me many years ago.

 

[Clip4]

Not offering block time would be foolish on the part of any flight school. You'd be amazed at the number of people who would drop a deposit, sometimes sizable, and never show up to claim it. I think we averaged 40-50k annually in stale deposits on our books.

It's a terrible business with a ~4% gross margin. Every flight school has cash flow issues, not just the ones offering block rates.

What you really mean is you had 40-50K of unfunded liabilities on your books.

 

[bluesideup]

I bought a block rate for $3100 of 10 hours and started the next day.

What State? Some states, like CA will not allow more than $2500.00 deposit, you may have something similar?
I do not think the Feds can / will help, it can go wrong very quickly as they will look at Everything including your books, logs, timing.. your responsibility as Pilot... they try to stay away from Civil matters.
It is not likely that you will get the money you spent / used, back, the judges are not good at giving back what you agreed to and used, but you may get the unused portion. Try a Small claim if you have it in your State but I Would first give them a chance to make it right for you, give you back the unused portion, discount going forward, if you so chose...
You get more flies with honey than a baseball bat, and most of these small FBOs are not able to forecast everything and will try to make it right, but let them know that you are willing to take the next step if necessary, just be civil, but would prefer to work it out amongst yourselves..

 

[pfarber]

A court judgment is useless. I got a few of them when i ran an ISP and other than being able to write of the court expense and bad debt nothing changed.

Ride out your balance then name and shame.

 

[Salty]

What you really mean is you had 40-50K of unfunded liabilities on your books.

A pre payment is unfunded? Interesting accounting there.

 

[Clip4]

A pre payment is unfunded? Interesting accounting there.

Don’t fool yourself. The flight school didn’t hold those funds in a separate account for the student. After the flight school spent their block time deposit it becomes and unfunded liability. If a good number of students suddenly reappeared wanting the rental time they paid for the school could not accommodate them.

This is why we read with regularity a flight school closing and students getting screwed.

 

[Salty]

Don’t fool yourself. The flight school didn’t hold those funds in a separate account for the student. After the flight school spent their block time deposit it becomes and unfunded liability. If a good number of students suddenly reappeared wanting the rental time they paid for the school could not accommodate them.

This is why we read with regularity a flight school closing and students getting screwed.

You don't know this school was doing that. I'm sure this is what causes the demise of some schools, but the fact is that you do not know.