Sit in your Mooney / Comanche / Grumman / Musketeer?

I would suggest heading to Airventure in July. You will find all the planes there and owners willing to chat all day about them. Much easier to window shop.
 
I paid less than 80 for my Comanche 250.
All those planes can be obtained in your price range I believe.
 
Todd82 said:
Budget around 80k in this market?

Cherokee 180, AA5 Traveler "Meanderer," Sundowner, maybe a 172...

Sure there may be a 182 or Bo out there for 80k, but you'll easily be into it for over $100k after your first annual.
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Also, early model Cessna 177B.
 
There is a sundowner, and a tiger on the southramp at Truax. Ping me via PM, and I might be able to introduce you.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Obviously if you want a faster Traveler you can buy a Tiger and get another 15kts or so. That said I've been thinking about something faster than my Tiger recently as I ponder winter trips from New York down to Florida and the Carolinas. The extra 20kts I'd get from a Bo are mighty tempting.
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i have as well, but add up the cost of additional insurance, and the additional cost of the annual....?? Is 20 Kts really worth it at 500 NM trips?
 
Rcmutz said:
i have as well, but add up the cost of additional insurance, and the additional cost of the annual....?? Is 20 Kts really worth it at 500 NM trips?
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20 knots are worth a lot when you’re fighting a headwind, end-running weather, or racing weather/darkness/bladder to the destination.
 
Crashnburn said:
Also, early model Cessna 177B.
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Considered early Cardinals but didn't really think any were left out there for $80k that wouldn't become $100k at the first annual. If there are, I'm interested.
 
Rcmutz said:
i have as well, but add up the cost of additional insurance, and the additional cost of the annual....?? Is 20 Kts really worth it at 500 NM trips?
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How many trips? I shave at least an hour off every time I go to 6Y9 and back because headwinds always are an issue.
Insurance difference is about $500/yr
Annual is about $500/yr difference
(PA28 vs PA24).

My free time is worth $100/hr.

I easily shaved 20hrs off flight times this year.
 
I’m not saying it isn’t worth it to you guys. But the OP has to decide it for his usage if it is worth it. A couple of 500 NM trips a year versus once a month is a significant difference, imho. Also, if he has low retract time and/or is an older pilot, insurance difference can be closer to $1000-1500. Best to find that out BEFORE you purchase a plane.

Here is the OPs mission.... “I'd like to be able to take myself and 2 passengers (total human weight less than 500 lbs) with full fuel at least 250 miles in one shot. Not to say that I'd never want to do more, but those specs would take care of 90% of my missions.”
 
IMHO, the sitting upright or not issue is just something that you get used to. I went through a period where I got out of the Mooney and flew my son in laws 172 M for a while. Since I was used to the legs out in front position of the Mooney, I found that sitting on the 172 bar stool quite irritating, but got used to it after a while. I think it’s safe to assume that after buying a plane that’s what you’ll be flying whatever it is. Whatever it is you can get used to it if it fits your body.

my $0.02,
 
Well since the OP responded, I feel compelled to relate my experience further:

There are plenty of Ford/Chevy type arguments on this and other forums concerning Mooney’s. Since you are making a choice, I would like to point out some things for you to consider while in your decision process.

IF you and the people who normally fly with will fit comfortably in a Mooney, you can go forward with my other points. Determine for yourself whether or not you will fit. I have had numerous people say that a Mooney is too cramped, but then when quizzing them further I learn that that they have never been in one. So, make that decision for yourself. If you under 6’6” and not excessively wide, you will fit. Al Mooney was well over 6’ and not skinny. The narrowness has an advantage, decreasing overall drag.

The next thing is seating position. In a Mooney you sit with your feet pretty much straight out in front of you. I like driving sports cars, so I’m completely used to it and comfortable with that. There is an advantage to this and that is that the frontal area is reduced, decreasing overall drag.

A Mooney uses pushrods rather than cables and pulleys. Cables stretch resulting in slack in the controls. Getting out of most any Piper or Cessna, not so much with a Beech, the control precision makes you feel like you got out of an SUV with worn out shocks and steering linkage into a Ferrari.

Mooney provides a steel safety cage around the cockpit. Cessnas and Pipers have nothing but aluminum that will crush like a soda can. I saw a Mooney that a hangar door had fallen on and the people were able to exit the plane. Very good safety feature.

Fuel efficiency and range are tough to beat. My F model that has all the J modifications, at 60% power, leaned out can give me 150 Knots TAS at a little more than 8 GPH. With 64 gallons on board I’ll let you do the math. Even at 9 or 10 GPH, I have over 1,000 miles of range.

For most early Mooney’s, the manual gear and pump up flaps are brilliant simplicity.

In flight break ups, as far as I know are unheard of. They are ridiculously strong. Back in the eighties, another manufacturer was looking at buying Mooney. They sent some of their engineers to do destructive testing of the spar structure. They built a fixture of structural steel and using hydraulic Jacks, they stressed until failure. The fixture failed, not the aircraft structure.

It makes no difference to me what aircraft you choose. Whatever it is I hope it gives you many years of pleasure and service, but don’t let the people who know very little about the breed steer you away from a Mooney without doing your own research.

BTW, if you’re in NorthEast Texas, I’d be happy to let you sit in my plane. I’ll even give you a private tour of the Warbird Museum.

My $0.02,
 
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MBDiagMan said:
The next thing is seating position. In a Mooney you sit with your feet pretty much straight out in front of you. I like driving sports cars, so I’m completely used to it and comfortable with that. There is an advantage to this and that is that the frontal area is reduced, decreasing overall drag.
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I like flying Mooneys. Getting in and out of them, not so much. I'm 6'3" and not as limber as I used to be, so the small cabin door is a challenge. The other issue is getting my legs past that big nosewheel well housing in order to skootch over to the left seat.

If you look graceful getting in and out of a Mooney, you're doing it wrong.

 
Pilawt said:
I like flying Mooneys. Getting in and out of them, not so much. I'm 6'3" and not as limber as I used to be, so the small cabin door is a challenge. The other issue is getting my legs past that big nosewheel well housing in order to skootch over to the left seat.

If you look graceful getting in and out of a Mooney, you're doing it wrong.

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Modern Mooneys don’t have a wide yokes or nose wheel housing, makes it easier to get out. Js starting 1978 don’t have the quadrant either. I can get in/out easily.
I don’t have the step, so getting on or off the wing is probably not something I will be doing when I’m eighty.
 
Don Maxwell does many Mooney test flights and like myself he’s no spring Chicken. In the mid and long bodies, he slips off the front of the wing. I’m 73 and I manage to enter and exit via the rear. For me entering and exiting any airplane is a very small issue. Probably less than 1% of the time involves entry and exit.
 
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FlyingSinger said:
renderTimingPixel.png
Hi everyone! I'm looking at buying my first plane, and I've narrowed it down to a few different options. The thing is, I have an awkward, gangly, surprisingly inflexible body. Given the very hot airplane market right now, I may need to put an offer in on a plane sight unseen. I'm trying to avoid buying a model that would end up being uncomfortable to fly... So I would really like to sit in the various options first and figure out if they're realistic to consider given my aforementioned gangliness. I'm looking at the following:
  • Mooney M20C through M20G
  • Piper PA-24 Comanche
  • Grumman AA-5x Traveler/Cheetah/Tiger
  • Beech 23 Musketeer/Sundowner, or 19 Musketeer Sport
Unfortunately I don't know anyone who owns any of these models - but if you happen to own one of these planes and you would be willing to let me sit in it and make airplane noises while I see how I fit, I'd really appreciate it!

I'm in Madison, WI and I'd be happy to fly to your airport in my club plane to meet you (within a reasonable distance).

Thanks in advance!
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Hello @FlyingSinger! I have an M20R and I'm based at Waukesha, so if I can find a free moment I'd be happy to show you my bird. I used to be based at MSN and was on the board of Capitol City Flyers for 14 years. If that's the club you're in, let me know and I can offer up some comparisons against their planes.

I'm also 6'4" and 300# and the Mooney is one of the most comfortable 4-seat singles I've flown. If nothing else, you can get out of it sooner than some of the other planes. ;) :D I suffer from the same hamstring condition you do.

The "Baby Beeches" are actually the big ones. They're known for being quite slow but very comfortable, so kind of opposite end of the spectrum.

The Comanche is a very comfortable airplane, and one of the best all-around airplanes ever built IMO. It's a real shame they quit building them in 1972. :(

For what it's worth, you state "M20C through M20G" and those have some differences that might matter to you:

The C through E are "short body" and have the smallest back seat. If the people you're planning on flying around are smaller than average (or at least one of them is), no biggie. Otherwise, you may want to find a short body Mooney and have them try it on.

The F and G are "mid body", so called because they stretched the M20 again when they came out with the M20L Porsche Mooney to create the "long body". Most of these stretches were in the back seat and baggage compartment.

The D model was fixed gear, designed to be a trainer that would be able to encourage people to move onto other Mooneys when they were done training. It wasn't particularly successful, and nearly all of the D models have been converted back to Cs.

The C and G are 180hp, the E and F are 200hp. Both the D and G are relatively rare compared to the other three. The E is the fastest of that batch.

You may do the best with an F. You'll have the bigger back seat and more hp, plus there are "J mods" available such as the cowl closure "smile", sloped windscreen, etc that will make it faster and more desirable.

midwestpa24 said:
Personally I don't think you will find the Mooney comfortable. They are known for a lot of things, but interior space isn't one of them.
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It's the same.... old song....

The Mooney is wider than a Bonanza and the same width as a 182. The 182 is more squared off, so will feel the biggest of those three. Some of the older Mooneys had the windscreen seemingly right in your face and that can create a perception that it's tight, but pushing the windscreen forward doesn't give you any more USABLE room.

I honestly wouldn't rule out a Cessna variant for you either. A 172 or 182 can be quite roomy with the seat slid back. May be easier to get in and out of that a low-wing airplane in my experience.
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The 182 is definitely one I can sit in for a really long time reasonably comfortably because it's very upright.

FlyingSinger said:
I'd like to be able to take myself and 2 passengers (total human weight less than 500 lbs) with full fuel at least 250 miles in one shot. Not to say that I'd never want to do more, but those specs would take care of 90% of my missions. Speed would be fun but it's not a top factor for me; IFR capability is a must. I've been flying the same club 172 for the last 10+ years, and while it's a good capable plane that meets my requirements, I'm honestly just ready for something different.
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Ahhhh. UWFC?

Really, your requirements aren't difficult to meet. Something that'll cruise at 130 knots will meet your requirement in still air in 2 hours. 500 pounds of people means almost any 4-seater will handle the load. If you get something at 150 knots you'll be able to do it in a couple hours even with a decent headwind.

When it comes to fitting in the plane, it's all about my hamstring flexibilty. I'm about 6'1" and 155 lbs, so lateral roominess isn't a big concern - but my hamstrings are *shockingly* short. Like, if I stand and try to touch my toes, even if I hunch my back all the way down, I'm still 6-8" away from touching my toes. This means if I'm sitting in a seat and my legs are out in front of me, I have to either hunch my back or bend my knees... There are no other options. On a long flight, this could get pretty uncomfortable, and it's hard to know how a particular plane will feel without sitting in it.
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Like I said, my hamstrings are a lot like yours. Keep legs straight and back bent, and I'll get a backache, hip flexors will tighten up and make it worse and make my butt hurt, etc...

Is one of the people you're going to fly with your SO? I've found that while I can fly long legs (5+ hours) in my Mooney, it's more comfortable if I rotate my legs outward and bend my knees. So, if I'm flying with my wife in the right seat, I'll put my leg up against hers. Solo, of course, no problem.

For what it's worth, pretty much all low-wing 4-seat singles will have you sitting with your legs out in front of you. I found that the Mooney is more comfortable because the panel is closer to me - I did my instrument rating in an Archer and I always had backaches after lessons because when I put the seat far enough back that my knees weren't getting into the yoke, I could no longer reach the panel without leaning forward. Ugh. With the Mooney, I can put the seat in a comfortable position and everything I need is within reach. The geometry there is quite unlike most singles.

midwestpa24 said:
If maintenance cost and insurance cost are a factor, with your mission statement, retracts probably aren't worth it.
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Sounds like a Comanche owner. The gear maintenance on a Comanche is higher than most small retracts. With the Mooney, I've never had to touch the gear system aside from having it swung at annual and having the clutch released once when a friend's kid engaged the emergency extension. Had I known that's what happened, I could have likely taken care of it myself.

Also, insurance can often be paid for in speed - Yes, it will be higher, but not that much... And the extra speed you get may put the cost per mile the same as a fixed gear plane.

Again, FWIW, when we looked at insuring a 182 vs an R182 (RG) vs a 206 (fixed gear but 6 seats), the R182 was only about 15% more to insure than the 182, but the 206 was double.

Todd82 said:
Needs a don'tchaknow
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And some brats to go with those curds, eh?

Pilawt said:
I like flying Mooneys. Getting in and out of them, not so much. I'm 6'3" and not as limber as I used to be, so the small cabin door is a challenge. The other issue is getting my legs past that big nosewheel well housing in order to skootch over to the left seat.

If you look graceful getting in and out of a Mooney, you're doing it wrong.
Click to expand...

I won't say I look graceful getting in and out of anything, but with my size, I've found that each plane has a technique that works just fine - You just have to learn it or figure it out.

I can get in my Mooney quite quickly using this technique: Stand on the wing facing away from the fuselage. Kneel down, supporting myself on the top/back part of the door frame, and put my right knee on the right seat with my right foot pointing down in front of the left seat. Bring left foot between the right and the panel/yokes, and "roll" left into the left seat.

It may not be graceful, but it's a lot more graceful than the description I just gave. :rofl: And it's quick and easy, takes just a couple seconds. Getting out is the reverse - Bend knees, roll to the right until right knee is on the seat, swing left foot out onto the wing, stand up.

Anyway, I hope this helps some and that your search is successful! Let me know if you want to take a look sometime.
 
Hey look, someone who hasn't owned a Comanche talking about how much the maintenance is on the gear.

Less than $2000 in 13 years. A solenoid needed to be replaced and the original cabling lasted ONLY 53 years and had to be replaced. Oh the horror!!

Still don't know how you convince yourself that the Mooney is the most comfortable single. I've been in C , E, F, J, P and they are most definitely not. You still haven't taken that tape measure to measure where it counts and report back.
 
EdFred said:
...Still don't know how you convince yourself that the Mooney is the most comfortable single. I've been in C , E, F, J, P and they are most definitely not.....
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yes they are.
 
FlyingSinger said:
When it comes to fitting in the plane, it's all about my hamstring flexibilty. I'm about 6'1" and 155 lbs, so lateral roominess isn't a big concern - but my hamstrings are *shockingly* short. Like, if I stand and try to touch my toes, even if I hunch my back all the way down, I'm still 6-8" away from touching my toes. This means if I'm sitting in a seat and my legs are out in front of me, I have to either hunch my back or bend my knees... There are no other options.
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I think this will rule out the Mooney for you.
 
Which model of Mooney's have adjustable rudder pedals?

My one Mooney flight was in a F model and between my 29" inseam and little TRex length arms the panel was in my face. Shoulder to shoulder was fine but I prefer to sit back a little more.
 
Pugs said:
Which model of Mooney's have adjustable rudder pedals?

My one Mooney flight was in a F model and between my 29" inseam and little TRex length arms the panel was in my face. Shoulder to shoulder was fine but I prefer to sit back a little more.
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All of them, it’s a option (kit) you can buy. Extends them 3-4 inches IIRC.
 
EdFred said:
Hey look, someone who hasn't owned a Comanche talking about how much the maintenance is on the gear.

Less than $2000 in 13 years. A solenoid needed to be replaced and the original cabling lasted ONLY 53 years and had to be replaced. Oh the horror!!

Still don't know how you convince yourself that the Mooney is the most comfortable single. I've been in C , E, F, J, P and they are most definitely not. You still haven't taken that tape measure to measure where it counts and report back.
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Stop trying so hard to be offended, Ed. Like I said, the Comanche is one of the best all-around singles ever made. If I hadn't come across the Mooney I'd have probably gotten a 250, 260, or twinkie instead. I've liked them for a really really long time.

The point does remain, though, that the Comanche's gear system requires attention to maintenance. It's not unreasonably high, but there are Comanche gear specialists for a reason. There's also plenty of owners who proactively replace the bungees at 2 years instead of 3. And replacing the bungees may not be super expensive, but it also isn't free.

lsaway said:
I think this will rule out the Mooney for you.
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The Mooney doesn't really sit any lower than most low wing singles (the exception being the Bonanza, which sits noticeably higher than any other low wing I've flown. And like I said, the Mooney ends up being more comfortable with tight hamstrings because the panel is nice and close and everything is in easy reach without ever having to lean forward. It certainly doesn't rule out the Mooney.

Pugs said:
Which model of Mooney's have adjustable rudder pedals?

My one Mooney flight was in a F model and between my 29" inseam and little TRex length arms the panel was in my face. Shoulder to shoulder was fine but I prefer to sit back a little more.
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Not adjustable pedals, per se, but there's an extension kit. A long-departed PoAer, Moxie, flew a Mooney and loved it, and she was 5 feet nothing.
 
...and there's Mooney specialists. I guess that makes them the most expensive retract too?

Seriously though, tired of people commenting on how expensive any plane they've never owned or been in charge of maintenance of is expense wise. The Comanche this the 310 that, the Commander, the 182, a 195, the you name it...

"Have you owned one?"

"No but, my best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious."

Have you ever seen me comment (without being tongue in cheek) about how expensive the maintenance of anything except a Cherokee 180 or Comanche is? No, because I actually like to know what I'm talking about instead of pulling stuff out my my ass.
 
Speaking of Mooney entry and exit. I had a friend show me his technique. Passenger seat all the way forward, pilot all the way back, step into the back and then come up between the two seats. Worked for him in a C model.
 
EdFred said:
...and there's Mooney specialists. I guess that makes them the most expensive retract too?
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There are not Mooney landing gear specialists...

Seriously though, tired of people commenting on how expensive any plane they've never owned or been in charge of maintenance of is expense wise. The Comanche this the 310 that, the Commander, the 182, a 195, the you name it...
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Great... So instead of bitching, give us better information!

How much does it cost to replace the bungees? Do you do it on the required 3-year cycle or do you do it every other year like a lot of owners do, and why?
 
flyingcheesehead said:
There are not Mooney landing gear specialists...



Great... So instead of bitching, give us better information!

How much does it cost to replace the bungees? Do you do it on the required 3-year cycle or do you do it every other year like a lot of owners do, and why?
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About $40 for a pair last time I bought them including shipping. I have done it 2 years and I've done it 3 years as required by AD. Depends on my mood. Even if I did it every year, oh no...$40 per year! Such an onerous expense! That will make me quit flying!!!! The other "expensive" gear AD is 1000 hour dye pen for cracks. I have yet to talk to an A&P who has had had one fail. I'm sure they are out there, but it's way overblown on how often it occurs. The real major gear issue is the other 1000 hour inspection. Take gear apart, measure tolerances for bolts/bushings. 20ish hrs of labor according to my A&P (so for me a whopping $1.40/hr operating cost.) Yeah maybe have to replace a few bushings or bolts here or there. Still not much of an expense considering it's every 1000 hours. Even if the gear transmission craps (mine is original from what I can tell from the logs), it's a less than $500 replacement (labor not included)

But you can keep telling everyone how ****ty and crazy expensive the gear is as a non-owner.
 
I recently sat in a early 60s Comanche….no possible way to fly it unless I never used the ailerons. Heck, my knee was up against the throttle so no pulling power lol. Shoulder rubbing the side, head tilted 45 degrees, etc. It had a factory seat but not the one that cranks down so maybe that’s what others have. 6’5”
 
Randomskylane said:
I recently sat in a early 60s Comanche….no possible way to fly it unless I never used the ailerons. Heck, my knee was up against the throttle so no pulling power lol. Shoulder rubbing the side, head tilted 45 degrees, etc. It had a factory seat but not the one that cranks down so maybe that’s what others have. 6’5”
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That doesn't sound correct at all. Something was way out of whack. My buddy at 6'7" sits in it with no issue. Did you slide the seat back, well, at all?
 
All the way back my legs were ok but still no headroom. Also, all the way back is far behind the last locking slot for the seat and can’t possibly be legal since the seat slides.

Maybe people have added slots in their track?
 
Randomskylane said:
All the way back my legs were ok but still no headroom. Also, all the way back is far behind the last locking slot for the seat and can’t possibly be legal since the seat slides.

Maybe people have added slots in their track?
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AFAIK there were two different seats that don't have vertical adjustment. One sits higher, but has 3 seat back adjustments. When I have it in full upright position at 6'3" I lose all headroom that I had with the original seat with 0 adjustment that sat lower and have to tilt my head like you said. But as soon as I lean it back to the middle setting - which seems about the same lean as the original seats in '58 - everything is awesome. If I want to Detroit Lean, I can go back even further. The original seats were much lower and had no adjustment and gave you a ton of head room. But short people needed a boat cushion to see over the panel. Unless there's a 3rd seat with no vertical adjustment I'm not aware of which might be the case.

If you go beyond the seat stops, then the safety block is in the wrong place, or not installed. That safety block should pretty much stop you at the last slide stop.
 
Maybe they have the wrong seats! It’s 9.5” from the floor rail to the bottom of the seat frame. Add a couple inches of cushion and I’m too tall.

There’s maybe 2 feet from last slot to the limit of rearward travel.

The last screw forward and rearward served as the seat stop(s.) Remove them and then you can slide the seat off the rails (front two rollers then rear two rollers.)

I’ll tilt the seat back next time but I don’t see a solution for knees/shoulder.

thx for responding
 
Randomskylane said:
Maybe they have the wrong seats! It’s 9.5” from the floor rail to the bottom of the seat frame. Add a couple inches of cushion and I’m too tall.

There’s maybe 2 feet from last slot to the limit of rearward travel.

The last screw forward and rearward served as the seat stop(s.) Remove them and then you can slide the seat off the rails (front two rollers then rear two rollers.)

I’ll tilt the seat back next time but I don’t see a solution for knees/shoulder.

thx for responding
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I'm not at the airport, but 9.5" seems a bit high. Also odd on the shoulders. I wear a 48" and have no shoulder issues. But if they have a seat in it from something else...you aint sitting where you should be sitting. Here's the room I have in mine with the seat all the way back.

20210702_144444[1].jpg
20210702_144430[1].jpg
 
flyingcheesehead said:
How much does it cost to replace the bungees? Do you do it on the required 3-year cycle or do you do it every other year like a lot of owners do, and why?
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My A&P refuses to do the bungee work on Comanche gear. Says he found an A&P friend dead in the shop, killed by a bungee that broke loose.
 
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