Sit in your Mooney / Comanche / Grumman / Musketeer?

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FlyingSinger

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FlyingSinger
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Hi everyone! I'm looking at buying my first plane, and I've narrowed it down to a few different options. The thing is, I have an awkward, gangly, surprisingly inflexible body. Given the very hot airplane market right now, I may need to put an offer in on a plane sight unseen. I'm trying to avoid buying a model that would end up being uncomfortable to fly... So I would really like to sit in the various options first and figure out if they're realistic to consider given my aforementioned gangliness. I'm looking at the following:
  • Mooney M20C through M20G
  • Piper PA-24 Comanche
  • Grumman AA-5x Traveler/Cheetah/Tiger
  • Beech 23 Musketeer/Sundowner, or 19 Musketeer Sport
Unfortunately I don't know anyone who owns any of these models - but if you happen to own one of these planes and you would be willing to let me sit in it and make airplane noises while I see how I fit, I'd really appreciate it!

I'm in Madison, WI and I'd be happy to fly to your airport in my club plane to meet you (within a reasonable distance).

Thanks in advance!
 
John Sjaardema at Excel Air is in Rensselaer Indiana, which would be a short flight from you. He's a Grumman expert, and always has a bunch of Grumman's being worked on in his shop. Maybe give him a call and see if you could take a look at one in person.
 
Come to Rough River in April - will be a bunch of us there with lots of planes to try on. Or hang out at Jet Room at MSN and greet people as they are arriving. Or join your local EAA Chapter - that'd get you in touch with a bunch of local planes.
 
masloki said:
Or hang out at Jet Room at MSN and greet people as they are arriving.
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"Hi how ya doing..can I sit in your plane?"
"No."

"Hi how ya doing..can I sit in your plane?"
"You want to what in my plane?"
"Sit in it."
"Umm...no thanks."

"Hi how ya doing..can I sit in your plane?"
"What?"
"Sit in your plane?"
"Let's go Steve. The kids are hungry."
 
I feel like Im perpetuating a stereotype here, but based on what you are looking for, I would suggest not writing off early bonanzas (pre-1957). the E series engine is a bit of an oddball, but there are plenty of people who still know those planes well. and they are likely to be affordable. My 1955 F35 will cruise at about 155KTAS and 9 gph at 10k msl. with tip tanks I can get from Puerto rico to Miami nonstop. and carry 1050 lbs. The E185/E225 engine scares a lot of people away, which is why they are so cheap. Im 6' tall, and when I bought the plane, was well over 300 pounds and I fit in it great. now, at 225, I fit even better. the back seat is very spacious.

To be honest though, those planes on your list are all planes that I considered. My bonanza has been great for me and my wife. I dont think you can go wrong with any of them.
 
Beyond the basic idea of fitting in the airplane, what is your mission profile? The 4 airplanes you originally listed may all be decent airplanes, but there is quite a bit of variety between a Mooney or Comanche to a Grumman or Sundowner.

Personally I don't think you will find the Mooney comfortable. They are known for a lot of things, but interior space isn't one of them.

The Comanche (and I'm biased) is a very roomy airplane. They are reasonably fast and efficient and a good all around travel machine. They are uniquely older however and are no longer factory supported. That isn't a show stopper for me, but just something to be aware of.

Can't say much about the Grumman's, I rode in the back seat of one once a long time ago, and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express...

My Sundowner experience was 20+ years ago. I do remember them being quite roomy, but they weren't the fastest or most efficient aircraft. They are built like a Beech though. Of course the next step up in Beechcraft is the Bonanza, if you want something equivalent to a Comanche.

I honestly wouldn't rule out a Cessna variant for you either. A 172 or 182 can be quite roomy with the seat slid back. May be easier to get in and out of that a low-wing airplane in my experience.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Beyond the basic idea of fitting in the airplane, what is your mission profile? The 4 airplanes you originally listed may all be decent airplanes, but there is quite a bit of variety between a Mooney or Comanche to a Grumman or Sundowner.
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Great question, and probably something I should have led with up front. I'd like to be able to take myself and 2 passengers (total human weight less than 500 lbs) with full fuel at least 250 miles in one shot. Not to say that I'd never want to do more, but those specs would take care of 90% of my missions. Speed would be fun but it's not a top factor for me; IFR capability is a must. I've been flying the same club 172 for the last 10+ years, and while it's a good capable plane that meets my requirements, I'm honestly just ready for something different. I'm not against a high wing, but it would be kind of fun to look in the direction I'm turning for once. Maintenance cost and insurance cost are considerations as well - I have about 350 hours and an instrument rating, but not much retract time.

When it comes to fitting in the plane, it's all about my hamstring flexibilty. I'm about 6'1" and 155 lbs, so lateral roominess isn't a big concern - but my hamstrings are *shockingly* short. Like, if I stand and try to touch my toes, even if I hunch my back all the way down, I'm still 6-8" away from touching my toes. This means if I'm sitting in a seat and my legs are out in front of me, I have to either hunch my back or bend my knees... There are no other options. On a long flight, this could get pretty uncomfortable, and it's hard to know how a particular plane will feel without sitting in it.

As far as why I chose those planes...
  • Mooney: Efficiency, relatively low acquisition cost, simplicity for a complex plane - relatively straightforward maintenance
  • Comanche: Nice balance of factors - speed, efficiency, roominess, stability
  • Grumman: Great visibility, easy in and out, fun handling, good efficiency and reasonable performance, relatively low acquisition cost
  • Musketeer/Sundowner: Comfortable, sturdy, stable IFR platform, low acquisition cost
Definitely different reasons for each of those, but I think they would all fit my mission well and I think I could find examples within my budget. But those dang hamstrings - it's the biggest factor when buying a car and the same will be true of a plane. Hopefully that helps - but really I think I just need to try the planes on for size.
 
FlyingSinger said:
When it comes to fitting in the plane, it's all about my hamstring flexibilty. I'm about 6'1" and 155 lbs, so lateral roominess isn't a big concern - but my hamstrings are *shockingly* short. Like, if I stand and try to touch my toes, even if I hunch my back all the way down, I'm still 6-8" away from touching my toes. This means if I'm sitting in a seat and my legs are out in front of me, I have to either hunch my back or bend my knees... There are no other options. On a long flight, this could get pretty uncomfortable, and it's hard to know how a particular plane will feel without sitting in it.
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So you need an airplane that allows you to sit more upright, rather than one where your legs are in front of you. Honestly if that's the case, a Cessna is probably a more comfortable fit. you sit much more upright with your legs bent. Most low wings, especially Pipers, you sit closer to the floor with your legs outstretched in front of you.

If maintenance cost and insurance cost are a factor, with your mission statement, retracts probably aren't worth it.
 
midwestpa24 said:
So you need an airplane that allows you to sit more upright, rather than one where your legs are in front of you. Honestly if that's the case, a Cessna is probably a more comfortable fit. you sit much more upright with your legs bent. Most low wings, especially Pipers, you sit closer to the floor with your legs outstretched in front of you.

If maintenance cost and insurance cost are a factor, with your mission statement, retracts probably aren't worth it.
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Sitting up right? Look at a Skylane. You sit upright, can carry passengers with capacity to spare, good short field manners, can go X Country, etc.
 
FlyingSinger said:
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I'm in Madison, WI and I'd be happy to fly to your airport in my club plane to meet you (within a reasonable distance).

Thanks in advance!
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Welcome to PoA! While I don't have any of the listed airplanes, I'm based in Madison as well so good to see local pilots around. Let me know what you end up with and I'd be happy to trade rides! :)
 
WDD said:
Opposites attract I guess .............................. :)
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It's true. I have a very good looking wife who happens to be very liberal. Complete opposites.
But she is IFR rated, so I guess I'll keep her.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I just sold my Grumman AA5 and bought a Comanche. Both are great but the Comanche is certainly larger. It's like sitting in a van.

Look at the shoulder room and head room.

View attachment 103608
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Doesn’t help without knowing how big you are…if you’re 5’ tall, that’s not a ringing endorsement.

If OP is inflexible as he says , skip the Mooney.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I just sold my Grumman AA5 and bought a Comanche. Both are great but the Comanche is certainly larger. It's like sitting in a van.

Look at the shoulder room and head room.

View attachment 103608
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It would be nice to have a picture of the same people doing the same pose but in the Grumman for comparison's sake.

P.S. One thing that really strikes me about that picture is the flatness of the roof. Makes me think that you have a lot of room to move your head from side to side, especially compared to the curved roof of a Mooney.
 
Timbeck2 said:
"Hi how ya doing..can I sit in your plane?"
"What?"
"Sit in your plane?"
"Let's go Steve. The kids are hungry."
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Need a different tack. It’s Wisconsin, so try this:

Beautiful day for flying, eh?

Nice looking bird, I’ll bet it’s comfy, eh?

Say, do you suppose your plane would hold a case of Leinie’s? I’m trying to figure out which plane would be good for hauling a case of beer. Two cases, actually. Leinie’s. With some cheese curds. Sounds good, eh?

So, would you mind if I tried putting them in your back seat, to see how they fit? Two cases of Leinie’s, and a big bag of curds. You can keep them when I’m done.
 
Of the four planes you listed, I've flown in three. @SixPapaCharlie was gracious to give me a ride in his Grumman, @Salty has flown me in his Mooney several times, and I now own a Beech B23 (last version of the Musketeer, was renamed the Sundowner). Of those three, the Mooney is the most cramped but of course it has the best speed, helped by its retractable gear. My Beech is the most roomy and comfortable.

You're more than welcome to sit in mine if you'd like to visit Florida.

I think the Beechcrafts have been undervalued for a while now. The build quality is quite good. It flies nicely, too. It does have a reputation for being tricky to land well, but I think that's undeserved. It does demand that you be at the correct speed for landing and it won't tolerate a few extra knots like a Cherokee, but if you can fly a stabilized final at the prescribed speed the plane lands just fine.

If you're interested in learning more, see https://www.flyingmag.com/approachable-aircraft-beech-sundowner-musketeer/ .
 
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NoHeat said:
Need a different tack. It’s Wisconsin, so try this:

Beautiful day for flying, eh?

Nice looking bird, I’ll bet it’s comfy, eh?

Say, do you suppose your plane would hold a case of Leinie’s? I’m trying to figure out which plane would be good for hauling a case of beer. Two cases, actually. Leinie’s. With some cheese curds. Sounds good, eh?

So, would you mind if I tried putting them in your back seat, to see how they fit? Two cases of Leinie’s, and a big bag of curds. You can keep them when I’m done.
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Needs a don'tchaknow
 
If you make it out to Utah and want a ride in a 5B let me know. But if you are 3 adults I’m not sure that would be ideal for a mission, depending on luggage and whether or not you want tabs or full tanks. Fun and practical for my mission. Just two adults and limited luggage.
 
NoHeat said:
Need a different tack. It’s Wisconsin, so try this:

Beautiful day for flying, eh?

Nice looking bird, I’ll bet it’s comfy, eh?

Say, do you suppose your plane would hold a case of Leinie’s? I’m trying to figure out which plane would be good for hauling a case of beer. Two cases, actually. Leinie’s. With some cheese curds. Sounds good, eh?

So, would you mind if I tried putting them in your back seat, to see how they fit? Two cases of Leinie’s, and a big bag of curds. You can keep them when I’m done.
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Leinenkugel's can't hang with Spotted Cow.
 
If I bounce over that way I have a PA24.
 
I'll start by admitting that I am biased. Consider the number and location of entry points into the aircraft. That will eliminate most of your original list. I like my Grumman because it is much easier to get in and out of, you can open the canopy when it's hot, and it looks cool. In that order. Also, Bryan said that the Traveler is fast.
 
Rich Holt said:
I'll start by admitting that I am biased. Consider the number and location of entry points into the aircraft. That will eliminate most of your original list. I like my Grumman because it is much easier to get in and out of, you can open the canopy when it's hot, and it looks cool. In that order. Also, Bryan said that the Traveler is fast.
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Traveler...Fast-hahahahahahahahah pretty sure I spit coffee out my nose on that one. Loved my Traveler, but then I sat in a Lance and that was all she wrote. Sold the Traveler and bought the Lance. I do miss the sliding canopy though. I'm still trying to figure out a graceful way to get in or out of the Lance.
 
Trobaugh said:
Traveler...Fast-hahahahahahahahah pretty sure I spit coffee out my nose on that one. Loved my Traveler, but then I sat in a Lance and that was all she wrote. Sold the Traveler and bought the Lance. I do miss the sliding canopy though. I'm still trying to figure out a graceful way to get in or out of the Lance.
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Obviously if you want a faster Traveler you can buy a Tiger and get another 15kts or so. That said I've been thinking about something faster than my Tiger recently as I ponder winter trips from New York down to Florida and the Carolinas. The extra 20kts I'd get from a Bo are mighty tempting.
 
Should be called the Grumman Meanderer. And if the Tiger is only 15kts faster, then that's one slow-ass Tiger. I blew past Bryan's Meanderer and I wasn't even on the coals. Seemed to be about a 110kt plane.
 
EdFred said:
Should be called the Grumman Meanderer. And if the Tiger is only 15kts faster, then that's one slow-ass Tiger. I blew past Bryan's Meanderer and I wasn't even on the coals. Seemed to be about a 110kt plane.
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The Grumman Meanderer is supposedly a 125kt plane. I suspect that its numbers are a little less honest than the Tiger's numbers, though. Waxed well and properly rigged, a Tiger is 140kts-ish in the real world.
 
First thing I'd suggest is Yoga.

The last thing I'd suggest is buying an airplane sight unseen.

I love Comanche's, but I don't think you need the complexity of retract and cost for a 250 mile mission. I like the idea of a Cardinal as much as I hate climbing a ladder to fuel it.
 
Racerx said:
First thing I'd suggest is Yoga.

The last thing I'd suggest is buying an airplane sight unseen.

I love Comanche's, but I don't think you need the complexity of retract and cost for a 250 mile mission. I like the idea of a Cardinal as much as I hate climbing a ladder to fuel it.
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Until you're always flying into that 30kt headwind.
 
Do we know the budget? That might drive the direction of the conversation better
 
charheep said:
Do we know the budget? That might drive the direction of the conversation better
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Budget is roughly $80k... although this is really less of a "which plane should I buy" question and more of a "who will let me sit in their plane so I can decide which planes will work" question. :) Having said that, I'm obviously open to other suggestions - I mean, who doesn't like to window-shop for airplanes?
 
FlyingSinger said:
Budget is roughly $80k... although this is really less of a "which plane should I buy" question and more of a "who will let me sit in their plane so I can decide which planes will work" question. :) Having said that, I'm obviously open to other suggestions - I mean, who doesn't like to window-shop for airplanes?
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Budget around 80k in this market?

Cherokee 180, AA5 Traveler "Meanderer," Sundowner, maybe a 172...

Sure there may be a 182 or Bo out there for 80k, but you'll easily be into it for over $100k after your first annual.
 
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