Single Engine Add On questions

[Jeffreyac]

Hi all,

I feel a little silly, but as I used to tell my students - when you don't know something basic, and can't find the answer, you've got two choices: 1) remain ignorant, or 2) suck up the ego and ask the stupid question!

I'm a military pilot, with just under 4000 hours total time, including instructor and evaluator experience, so I'm not exactly new to aviation. Trouble is, I have no civilian experience whatsoever - never flown anything but military multiengine jets. I've recently had the opportunity to complete my military equivalency exam, which gained me my instrument, commercial, and multiengine civilian ratings, and I've also recently passed my ATP knowledge test (I've got a training opportunity, again through work, that may allow me to complete the ATP practical while I get checked out in the airplane we use at my current assignment...)

That's a long history, but I wanted you to know where I was... My problem is, I'd really like to get checked out in a single engine airplane, and be able to take the wife flying on nice weekends - and I'm having some difficulty with this most basic of tasks...

My understanding, after spending some time in the regs, is that I need to:

1) Go get access to a single engine aircraft and an instructor, and gain enough time to get:
2) an endorsement from said instructor saying I'm 'competent in aeronautical knowledge' and 'proficient in areas of operation' for the class rating (single engine land), and then:
3) take (and pass) a practical test for said rating.

Presenting proof of a passing practical test (wow, a lot of P's in that sentence) to the FSDO, if I understand it, gains me the single engine addition on my certificate - do I have this right? Is this basically the process?

I know this seems like a silly question, but remember I've spent 15 years under the military system - I train in an aircraft, I take a checkride, and I'm qualified in the aircraft, with no worries about classes, categories, or type ratings - so I tend to get a little confused on what otherwise should be pretty simple.

Oh, and while I'm writing a novel, my other question pertains to type ratings. By the book, a type rating is not required for airplanes less than Large that aren't turbojets or otherwise specified - so, for my plan of taking the wife up in a rented cessna-lookalike, I just need my single engine rating and (again) sufficient training in said airplane to get an instructor's endorsement, right?

Thanks for your time, and patience! The bad news is, I'm currently stupid on civilian regs - the good news is I (hopefully!) have a steep learning curve and hope to be bringing myself up to speed, perhaps with the assistance of some good advice from the friendly folks here!

 

[dmccormack]

Welcome to the board, Jeff!

There are a couple of interested parties to placate in order to fly in the civilian world.

First are the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which specify requirements and qualifications. Thus the Federal Rules state you need an endorsement from a qualified instructor to fly a High performance airplane, for example (over 200 HP per engine, single or twin).

The next is insurance, which may levy more requirements in hours and/or training. While you may have the endorsement to fly a High Performance airplane, the underwriter may not let you fly solo in a Bonanza with 4 hours total time in Bonanzas -- or if they do, the rates may be prohibitive.

Last is the FBO you will be renting from (I assume you'll be renting?). Most FBOs have checkout requirements as well as minimum hours before renting and flying an airplane solo.

A good FBO will have a policy in place and a plan of action so that you can take care of all the interested parties concurrently.

You've come to a good place for assistance, but I'd strongly recommend you contact the local Flight Standards District Office (FSDO). They should be able to answer questions and possibly refer you to a local (to you) FAASteam rep who can mentor you through the transition.

 

[CJones]

First off, Welcome to PoA!

Secondly, Good question. As an aspiring CFI, I look forward to following this one to see exactly where the references for the answer come from. I haven't noticed any "Exceptions/Rules for Military Conversions" sections in the Regs, so I'll be interested to see where this answer comes from. That's the good thing about this place - someone usually has an answer. The trick is to filter through the b.s. answers for the useful ones.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Jeffreyac]

Thanks, Dan - I'm learning that it's not quite as simple as what I'm used to, but I'm excited about flying on the civilian side of the street... yeah, I'll be looking to rent from the FBO whatever I can find available (and cheap! I was a little surprised, as I hadn't seriously looked at airplane rental rates in about 7 years!)

As for the CFRs, as I type this I have 14 CFR open on my desk in front of me, reviewing section 61 on pilot certification, attempting to improve my knowledge. I'll also need to brush up on sections 91, and 121 and 135 for the ATP stuff as well - so I have a lot of learning to do!

The basic sequence of events for the certification though - am I essentially correct? get with an instructor, get an endorsement, take a checkride, see the FSDO?

EDIT: Iwannafly, you snuck in as I was typing! Thanks for the welcome - good to be here!

 

[dmccormack]

The basic sequence of events for the certification though - am I essentially correct? get with an instructor, get an endorsement, take a checkride, see the FSDO?

All except the FSDO -- Practical tests are typically conducted by Designated Examiners (DE) -- experienced pilots who have applied to the FAA and have authority to examine and certify applicants IAW the Practical Test Standards.

Once you have your Temporary Airmen Certificate from the DE, you're done with official FAA interaction.

There is a plethora of good test prep material available -- the Gleim series is the least expensive, and the most direct. It may save you some wading.

 

[Jeffreyac]

Excellent, thanks much! And, yes, I'm familiar with the Gleim products, as I used them (as well as a software test prep program from Dantless, if I remember right) to get me up to speed for the ATP knowledge test - they seemed to work very well. Now, I'm studying hard to gain the knowledge for the oral part of the practical - a little worried about it, but that's probably good as it'll keep me motivated to stay in the books and learn!

Thanks again - looks like I need to get with my local FBO's and see what options I have for aircraft and instructor availability!

 

[dmccormack]

Excellent, thanks much! And, yes, I'm familiar with the Gleim products, as I used them (as well as a software test prep program from Dantless, if I remember right) to get me up to speed for the ATP knowledge test - they seemed to work very well. Now, I'm studying hard to gain the knowledge for the oral part of the practical - a little worried about it, but that's probably good as it'll keep me motivated to stay in the books and learn!

Thanks again - looks like I need to get with my local FBO's and see what options I have for aircraft and instructor availability!

Are you stationed at McGuire?

I was in the Air Force from 1980 until 1990 (then got smart and transferred to the Army )

Every base had a "Base Aero Club" with small SEL airplanes available.

Isn't there one there?

 

[Jeffreyac]

Actually, no, I'm down in Atlantic City, though I'm still active duty. I've got a position here as the military liaison for the FAA tech center here - hence my new civilian ratings; in order to be of use to the tech center as a pilot, I've got to get rated in their airplanes. Though, since they're picking up the tab and that makes this into a flying staff assignment, I have to say I'm very happy here!

I didn't think about McGuire - I bet they do have a flying club, and I do occasionally run up there for paperwork or classes (it's only about an hour and 15 min, or so - not too long of a drive!) I'll have to check and see if they would be an option for me.

Thanks for the thought!

As far as an army transfer - that's a thought, but after 15 years here in the Air Force, I probably have more bad habits than the Army could successfully beat out of me... Though my uncle (a retired Army helicopter pilot) frequently likes to point out shortcomings in my chosen branch of service...

 

[nosehair]

Presenting proof of a passing practical test (wow, a lot of P's in that sentence) to the FSDO, if I understand it, gains me the single engine addition on my certificate - do I have this right? Is this basically the process?

When you actually fly with an examiner, he will issue the single-engine add-on rating on the spot.

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, I think you've already got the answers, and it sounds like you've been through this process for the multi-engine already. If you don't have either a proficiency check or 10 hours in the last 12 calendar months in a single engine airplane, you'll need to do a checkride with a designated examiner, who will issue you the certificate on the spot. A description of the exam can be found in the Practical Test Standards, http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/pilot/media/FAA-S-8081-12B.pdf. Pay attention to the chart on page 1-v, because that shows what you'll be tested on.

The instructor who signs you off to take the checkride will probably also make sure that you meet the FBO's requirements for rental at the same time, which will also take care of insurance requirements. You may wish to look at non-owned aircraft insurance, but that's another topic.
§ 61.73 Military pilots or former military pilots: Special rules

(a) General. Except for a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who has been removed from flying status for lack of proficiency, or because of disciplinary action involving aircraft operations, a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who meets the applicable requirements of this section may apply, on the basis of his or her military training, for: (1) A commercial pilot certificate;
(2) An aircraft rating in the category and class of aircraft for which that military pilot is qualified;
(3) An instrument rating with the appropriate aircraft rating for which that military pilot is qualified; or
(4) A type rating, if appropriate.
(b) Military pilots on active flying status within the past 12 months. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who has been on active flying status within the 12 months before applying must:
(1) Pass a knowledge test on the appropriate parts of this chapter that apply to pilot privileges and limitations, air traffic and general operating rules, and accident reporting rules;
(2) Present documentation showing compliance with the requirements of paragraph (d) of this section for at least one aircraft category rating; and
(3) Present documentation showing that the applicant is or was, at any time during the 12 calendar months before the month of application—
(i) A rated military pilot on active flying status in an armed force of the United States; or
(ii) A rated military pilot of an armed force of a foreign contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, assigned to pilot duties (other than flight training) with an armed force of the United States and holds, at the time of application, a current civil pilot license issued by that contracting State authorizing at least the privileges of the pilot certificate sought.
(c) Military pilots not on active flying status during the 12 calendar months before the month of application. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who has not been on active flying status within the 12 calendar months before the month of application must:
(1) Pass the appropriate knowledge and practical tests prescribed in this part for the certificate or rating sought; and
(2) Present documentation showing that the applicant was, before the beginning of the 12th calendar month before the month of application, a rated military pilot as prescribed by paragraph (b)(3)(i) or paragraph (b)(3)(ii) of this section.
(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who applies for an aircraft category, class, or type rating, if applicable, is issued that rating at the commercial pilot certificate level if the pilot presents documentary evidence that shows satisfactory accomplishment of:
(1) An official U.S. military pilot check and instrument proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if applicable, as pilot in command during the 12 calendar months before the month of application;
(2) At least 10 hours of pilot-in-command time in that aircraft category, class, or type, if applicable, during the 12 calendar months before the month of application; or
(3) An FAA practical test in that aircraft after—
(i) Meeting the requirements of paragraphs (b)(1) and (b)(2) of this section; and
(ii) Having received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies that the pilot is proficient to take the required practical test, and that endorsement is made within the 60-day period preceding the date of the practical test.
(e) Instrument rating. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who applies for an airplane instrument rating, a helicopter instrument rating, or a powered-lift instrument rating to be added to his or her commercial pilot certificate may apply for an instrument rating if the pilot has, within the 12 calendar months preceding the month of application:
(1) Passed an instrument proficiency check by a U.S. Armed Force in the aircraft category for the instrument rating sought; and
(2) Received authorization from a U.S. Armed Force to conduct IFR flights on Federal airways in that aircraft category and class for the instrument rating sought.

 

[KennyFlys]

Jeff, Welcome to the board!

 

[ScottM]

I was in the Air Force from 1980 until 1990 (then got smart and transferred to the Army )

Every base had a "Base Aero Club" with small SEL airplanes available.

You must have been in a different USAF than I was! No aero club at RAF Mildenhall or RAF Chicksands, nearest was RAF Lakenheath, nor was there one at Goodfellow AFB, Cape Canaveral AFS, or O'Hare ARFF.

 

[poadeleted20]

You must have been in a different USAF than I was! No aero club at RAF Mildenhall or RAF Chicksands, nearest was RAF Lakenheath, nor was there one at Goodfellow AFB, Cape Canaveral AFS, or O'Hare ARFF.

Nor at Upper Heyford, nor at Cannon until I founded one in 1982.

 

[dmccormack]

Nor at Upper Heyford, nor at Cannon until I founded one in 1982.

Griffiss AFB, Niagara Falls ANG, Harrisburg (MDT), Lowry (Actually over at Buckley Fld), Hill, Plattsburgh, Ft Indiantown Gap ANG, Hurlburt Fld, and McGuire AFB each had one.

That was from 80-91, and I was not each place that whole span, so I'll take back the "all" and say instead "every one I was assigned to/Affiliated with."