SID selection & Clearance Delivery

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JetMechPilot

Filing Flight Plan
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JetMechPilot
Good evening folks,

I'm a novice IR pilot and have some "real world" questions:

In one of the IFR handbooks, there is a statement: The DP enables a pilot to study and understand the details of a departure before filing an IFR flight plan.

Question 1: But if I was going to put a SID in my flight plan, how would I know which one to even do? Nashville for example has 12.

Question 2: So say I pick one, and instead they give me a different one. Without memorizing all of them, I'd have to look that one up and see if I could meet the climb requirements and try to study the thing. When on with CD, how long will they give you to advise? Is sitting there looking it all up for 30 seconds gonna **** everyone off?
 
JetMechPilot said:
Question 1: But if I was going to put a SID in my flight plan, how would I know which one to even do? Nashville for example has 12.
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If you use ForeFlight, they have a feature that shows the SIDs and STARs graphically.

That helps me know which procedure applies to my needs.
 
one of my gripes about looking up DP's is you have to go thru all of them to find out which ones apply to pistons. I wish they'd just make some kind of note somehow so I don't have to waste time looking at 'turbojet only' dp's. however, I never file a DP, I just file my flight plan and take any dp they give me. look it up under 'charts' in garmin pilot, punch it into the 650 if I feel I need to, then go. most of the time I don't even have to do that.
 
JetMechPilot said:
Question 2: So say I pick one, and instead they give me a different one. Without memorizing all of them, I'd have to look that one up and see if I could meet the climb requirements and try to study the thing. When on with CD, how long will they give you to advise? Is sitting there looking it all up for 30 seconds gonna **** everyone off?
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Copy and read back your clearance, then look it up. If it’s something you can’t do, call Clearance Delivery back and tell them you can’t do that DP, and would like a new clearance.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Copy and read back your clearance, then look it up. If it’s something you can’t do, call Clearance Delivery back and tell them you can’t do that DP, and would like a new clearance.
Click to expand...

Thank you.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Copy and read back your clearance, then look it up. If it’s something you can’t do, call Clearance Delivery back and tell them you can’t do that DP, and would like a new clearance.
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This. Don’t bother putting it in your filed flight plan — there’s no benefit IMO. The departure runway can change for a variety of reasons from the time you filed to when you depart. Just be prepared to look it up and fly it, and know how to add it to your GPS flight plan if using one.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you use ForeFlight, they have a feature that shows the SIDs and STARs graphically.

That helps me know which procedure applies to my needs.
Click to expand...
Finding them was less the issue. Its more about the order of things and then how to respond. So say they give me a DP that has a rediculous climb gradient or something. Without looking at it and studying it for a minute then I dont know if I can accept so do I sit there and look at it and tie up the line or what? @MauleSkinner seemed to clear that up.
 
Bear in mind if you look close a lot of STARs and SIDs are for jets only. So it’s not like you’ve got to be familiar with a bunch of them. At airports with multiple STARs and SIDs only a few will be applicable to us piston drivers.
 
Don’t confuse an ODP with a SID. You need to see if there is an ODP to avoid hitting something. SIDS can do that too, but they are more for traffic near busy airports and are in most GPSs and EFB’s. Unless you are flying a plane with no GPS, a SID is a couple button pushes.
 
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JetMechPilot said:
Question 1: But if I was going to put a SID in my flight plan, how would I know which one to even do? Nashville for example has 12.
Click to expand...

Typically it's not that hard really, even if you have to actually look at all the SID charts (meaning not using Foreflight or another EFB's aid for that). SIDs usually go one direction - so if there are 12, probably 3 go north-ish, 3 go east-ish, etc. So you can easily narrow it down to 3 just by looking at what direction you plan to go. Then you see that two of those are for jets only, and that leaves one for you.

But like others said, if you really have no way to determine it, just wait until CD gives it to you, and then brief it. As you gain experience, it shouldn't take long to brief a SID, even a decently complicated one.
 
tsts4 said:
This. Don’t bother putting it in your filed flight plan — there’s no benefit IMO. The departure runway can change for a variety of reasons from the time you filed to when you depart. Just be prepared to look it up and fly it, and know how to add it to your GPS flight plan if using one.
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I used to feel this way. Assigning a SID or STAR is an ATC prerogative, not something a pilot selects. So I would look at the ones applicable to my route of flight but never file one. Then I began to notice that when I looked up recently cleared routes, some included a SID or STAR. If you come across that why not file what you expect to get.
 
If you get a SID, plug it into your GPS and follow the magenta line. A lot of the SIDS designed for pistons are just vector SIDs so they’re not that difficult. Shouldn’t take more than 30 seconds to take a look at the departure plate
 
midlifeflyer said:
I used to feel this way. Assigning a SID or STAR is an ATC prerogative, not something a pilot selects. So I would look at the ones applicable to my route of flight but never file one. Then I began to notice that when I looked up recently cleared routes, some included a SID or STAR. If you come across that why not file what you expect to get.
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IMO there’s no right or wrong way here. For me the juice isn’t worth the squeeze but that’s not to say I wouldn’t ever file it, just generally not. When I was based at Manassas (KHEF), we got a SID 100% of the time. I initially would file it but soon realized it just didn’t matter, so I stopped and that habit has continued. Truth in lending — I’m a lazy filer. Generally I file Direct destination and fly what I get. However, if I fly a given route often enough or there’s a specific routing I want, I’ll add the additional waypoints to what I file.
 
tsts4 said:
IMO there’s no right or wrong way here. For me the juice isn’t worth the squeeze but that’s not to say I wouldn’t ever file it, just generally not. When I was based at Manassas (KHEF), we got a SID 100% of the time. I initially would file it but soon realized it just didn’t matter, so I stopped and that habit has continued. Truth in lending — I’m a lazy filer. Generally I file Direct destination and fly what I get. However, if I fly a given route often enough or there’s a specific routing I want, I’ll add the additional waypoints to what I file.
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Agree no right or wrong here and some of it may be geographic. Depending on where I am heading, direct may be the most common clearance. In others it's a pipe dream

My laziness is at the opposite end from yours. Filing what I expect to get is an extra tap or two on an EFB and "As filed" takes so much less work than copying a full route clearance :D
 
Additionally, if you fly the same routing often, you'll get to know what ATC usually assigns you and your plane. Sure, traffic or weather might change that, but typically, it'll be the same clearance nearly every time. Granted, you won't know that at a "new to you" airport. But as midlifeflyer mentioned, looking up previously issued clearances with similar aircraft can give you an idea.
 
Even if you don’t file a Sid, they will usually assign the one that works best for you.
 
JetMechPilot said:
Good evening folks,

I'm a novice IR pilot and have some "real world" questions:

In one of the IFR handbooks, there is a statement: The DP enables a pilot to study and understand the details of a departure before filing an IFR flight plan.

Question 1: But if I was going to put a SID in my flight plan, how would I know which one to even do? Nashville for example has 12.

Question 2: So say I pick one, and instead they give me a different one. Without memorizing all of them, I'd have to look that one up and see if I could meet the climb requirements and try to study the thing. When on with CD, how long will they give you to advise? Is sitting there looking it all up for 30 seconds gonna **** everyone off?
Click to expand...
Different takes on it above and I don't disagree with any of them. Like someone said, you'll get the feel for it soon it enough what works in your neck of the woods. As far as the "...When on with CD, how long will they give you to advise? Is sitting there looking it all up for 30 seconds gonna **** everyone off..." goes, that shouldn't be a problem if you decide on the I want to review this first angle. But you don't want to just sit there and not say anything. Acknowledge you copied it and will get back to them with the read back. Like 'cessna 123 copies, I'll get back to you in a minute for the readback.'
 
I don't recommend picking a SID. That's like picking a runway. You fly the runway/SID that is assigned to you, unless you have special reasons for wanting a specific one (Ie for example, if you want a cross-wind departure for practice).
However, I do look up all the SIDs ahead of time to get a mental picture.
 
I vote for familiarity. I now know that coming home from KHOU (Houston Hobby) I'm going to get the STRYA8 so I go ahead and file it. Coming home from KDPA (Dupage - Chicago area) I don't file one because they usually don't give me one. If I'm going somewhere unfamiliar, if I can't figure it out, I don't file it and let them give it to me. That's what I did with Pittsburgh 2 weeks ago.
 
File what you think they’ll give you
Fly what they give you
Ask for direct once airborne
 
luvflyin said:
Acknowledge you copied it and will get back to them with the read back. Like 'cessna 123 copies, I'll get back to you in a minute for the readback.'
Click to expand...

I disagree with this just a little bit. Go ahead and read back the clearance - after all, that IS now your clearance whether you like it or not, or can fly it or not. After you read it back, then review it. If you then determine you can't fly the SID (CG or other reasons), then call them back up and tell them - and then they will work it out. If they issue you a new SID, that's part of a revised clearance.
 
Your clearance should be available 30 minutes prior to your filed proposed departure time. You don't have to wait until the engine is running and you're otherwise ready to taxi to call for clearance. Call early. That removes the time pressure for reviewing the SID, or any part of the clearance, quickly.
 
RussR said:
I disagree with this just a little bit. Go ahead and read back the clearance - after all, that IS now your clearance whether you like it or not, or can fly it or not. After you read it back, then review it. If you then determine you can't fly the SID (CG or other reasons), then call them back up and tell them - and then they will work it out. If they issue you a new SID, that's part of a revised clearance.
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Yeah, that’s probably the best way to go. I can see a scenario where the I’ll get back to you for the readback thing could be easier for CD. That’s where they go ‘cool, he likes it’ and then start making plans around it. Then you call back and say ‘I changed my mind.’ It could work something like this. After reading it back they pass the strip over to the Tower dude. Then you call em back and say ‘that ain’t gonna work, I need a new Clearance. Then he’s gotta get the strip back from Tower and start over. At the end of the day, really isn’t that big a deal one way or the other. Main point I was making in response to the OP’s question about how long will they wait before getting pizzed off is to say something. Not just sit there and review.
 
Every tower I've been in that has a dedicated CD position isn't far from the ground controller. Smaller places it IS the ground controller. They just slide strip down the rack on the other side of their desk typically. Not a big deal.

The bigger deal is if it isn't really an IFR tower to begin with. The controller has to pick up the phone again and get a new clearance from the guy who actually issues them.
 
This is what I do:
When filing the flight plan (fltplan.com), I see what is the most issued routes for my plane type issued by ATC.
Then, if it has a SID, I look it up and check if it's acceptable.
Then I file the plan.
I then check Flight aware to see what route I got prior to calling CD. If unable the SID, I can say it during initial call (never happened btw).
 
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RussR said:
I disagree with this just a little bit. Go ahead and read back the clearance - after all, that IS now your clearance whether you like it or not, or can fly it or not. After you read it back, then review it. If you then determine you can't fly the SID (CG or other reasons), then call them back up and tell them - and then they will work it out. If they issue you a new SID, that's part of a revised clearance.
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There is some merit in studying before reading it back, although I haven't heard of pilots doing it that way. There have been times when I have read back what I think I heard, then struggled to find an intersection on the map because I had no idea how that name was actually spelled. It felt stupid asking how something was spelled after having read back and acknowledged everything.

Wife says "buy milk from the store". You reply "sure thing, I'll buy milk". Then you when you are ready to head out, you realize you don't know if she said milk or silk. You come back and ask her to spell milk for you. She asks "why did you acknowledge if you had no idea if I said milk or silk".
 
sarangan said:
There is some merit in studying before reading it back, although I haven't heard of pilots doing it that way. There have been times when I have read back what I think I heard, then struggled to find an intersection on the map because I had no idea how that name was actually spelled. It felt stupid asking how something was spelled after having read back and acknowledged everything.

Wife says "buy milk from the store". You reply "sure thing, I'll buy milk". Then you when you are ready to head out, you realize you don't know if she said milk or silk. You come back and ask her to spell milk for you. She asks "why did you acknowledge if you had no idea if I said milk or silk".
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Even in places like KTEB I’ve never had anybody complain when I called Clearance Delivery as much as an hour after clearance read back to verify a fix.
 
Enroute automation should be providing a SID that's appropriate for the aircraft type, requested altitude, and requested route. When you call for clearance, how often do people have to go back and ask for something different?
 
JetMechPilot said:
Good evening folks,

I'm a novice IR pilot and have some "real world" questions:

In one of the IFR handbooks, there is a statement: The DP enables a pilot to study and understand the details of a departure before filing an IFR flight plan.

Question 1: But if I was going to put a SID in my flight plan, how would I know which one to even do? Nashville for example has 12.

Question 2: So say I pick one, and instead they give me a different one. Without memorizing all of them, I'd have to look that one up and see if I could meet the climb requirements and try to study the thing. When on with CD, how long will they give you to advise? Is sitting there looking it all up for 30 seconds gonna **** everyone off?
Click to expand...

Just pick up the phone, call CD and ask them.
 
Clip4 said:
Just pick up the phone, call CD and ask them.
Click to expand...
Isn't it funny how some people get freaked out on the radio, but are just fine on the phone...personally, (depending on the field of course) I'd probably ask over the radio, but that's just me.
 
Country Flier said:
Isn't it funny how some people get freaked out on the radio, but are just fine on the phone...personally, (depending on the field of course) I'd probably ask over the radio, but that's just me.
Click to expand...
Interesting observation. I can think of two related things that would account for it.
  1. We don't feel the need to use standard phraseology on the phone.
  2. It's private. We don't have people listening in to publicly criticize our phraseology.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Interesting observation. I can think of two related things that would account for it.
  1. We don't feel the need to use standard phraseology on the phone.
  2. It's private. We don't have people listening in to publicly criticize our phraseology.
Click to expand...
I’m the opposite, probably because I’m more comfortable with standard phraseology.
 
Country Flier said:
Isn't it funny how some people get freaked out on the radio, but are just fine on the phone.
Click to expand...
When I was flight instructing at towered airports, I would not solo a student until I had taken him up to the tower. I wanted him to see that there are regular people on the other end of the radio connection whom they could just talk to if they were confused or needed help.
 
flyingron said:
Every tower I've been in that has a dedicated CD position isn't far from the ground controller. Smaller places it IS the ground controller. They just slide strip down the rack on the other side of their desk typically. Not a big deal.

The bigger deal is if it isn't really an IFR tower to begin with. The controller has to pick up the phone again and get a new clearance from the guy who actually issues them.
Click to expand...

Which is what they get paid very well to do. My understanding is that ATC would rather you ask for the service you need then have you wandering into the sky unprepared. I've never heard a controller say "I was going to give you a different clearance but then I realized it might make you work more than you are inclined to work." You tell them what you need and they tell you what they need. Most of the time it is not a deal breaker.
 
Larry in TN said:
When I was flight instructing at towered airports, I would not solo a student until I had taken him up to the tower. I wanted him to see that there are regular people on the other end of the radio connection whom they could just talk to if they were confused or needed help.
Click to expand...

It works the other way as well. When I was teaching at a controlled field I always let the ATC folks know that a FAM flight was available, just make the request and I'd arrange it.
 
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