Sick of avionics shops!

lancie00

lancie00

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lancie00
Is anyone else out there having trouble getting an avionics shop to install used equipment? Every shop I talk to says "No, it's not worth installing used equipment. But here's a real nice $18,000 GPS system we can install. Wait time, 6 months. Is this the way it's always been or is the ADS-B mandate affecting shops?

On the other side, I can't even get an A&P/IA to look at avionics. I'd be more than happy to buy a unit online and install it myself with supervision but nobody will even talk to me about it.

*EDIT* As requested, I'm in north central Iowa.
 
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lancie00 said:
Is anyone else out there having trouble getting an avionics shop to install used equipment? Every shop I talk to says "No, it's not worth installing used equipment. But here's a real nice $18,000 GPS system we can install. Wait time, 6 months. Is this the way it's always been or is the ADS-B mandate affecting shops?

On the other side, I can't even get an A&P/IA to look at avionics. I'd be more than happy to buy a unit online and install it myself with supervision but nobody will even talk to me about it.
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Doesn't surprise me at all. Most shops don't want to mess with installing used stuff, especially used stuff they didn't sell you. As far as the A&P/IA, you just need to keep asking around; you'll eventually find one willing to help out with an avionics install, assuming you can convince them you're competent enough to do the heavy lifting. The kind of A&P/IA that's going to do that is NOT the kind that works at a formal shop or repair station. You're going to need to find an independent guy that works out of his truck or his own t-hangar, probably on the side of an otherwise full-time job. And those guys don't generally advertise, you'll need to ask around the local airports until you find someone willing to refer you.
 
You might want to post your location, so someone can give you shop recommendations.
The shop I’m using installs used equipment, usually taken from another clients aircraft.
But they seem busy, been waiting all week and I only have final cleanup (placards, log, w&b, put it back together).
And like all small businesses these days it seems communication is lacking.
 
I called over a dozen shops unwilling to do transponder work, radio work, AP work, etc. Same deal, unless I was buying the latest and greatest through them, they didn't want the business. I ended up with a shop two hours flight time away. Even then, they strongly urged me to install a GTN, but I don't want that POS. I didn't exactly have to beg for them to install a used GNS, but they wanted to ensure every duck was in a row before I brought it in. Namely, just 8130's. In the end it worked out fine and I had installed a brand new-looking Garmin GPS400W for less than half the cost of a GTN 650.
 
More work than available shops at the moment...shops can command a high price and pick and choose which work they want to do. When I first started looking at avionics about 3 years ago, I had no trouble finding shops that would do work with used avionics. I ultimately decided the delta between used and new wasn't enough to justify going with the used though, so I went with all new stuff. Haven't looked back since.

What are you trying to install exactly? Surprised that a MX shop out there didn't have any interest. I'm considering having my local MX shop do my G5 install since it doesn't have to be done at a Garmin Authorized Dealer.
 
I've found a few shops that do great work and will install used avionics. They installed an SL30 for me - I was told I needed to ensure I had an 8130 for it before they'd install it. Those shops are out there - you just have to look or be willing/able to travel.

Dean
 
Its just a sign of the current “economics” of the ADS-B mandate. They all have plenty of work right now and for the next couple of years so they can be picky.

That said on a general sense, on the local sense, there’s people around here who will install anything you want. So keep looking. They’re out there.

Even the “guy out of a truck” folks are busy.
 
BGF_Yankee said:
More work than available shops at the moment...shops can command a high price and pick and choose which work they want to do. When I first started looking at avionics about 3 years ago, I had no trouble finding shops that would do work with used avionics. I ultimately decided the delta between used and new wasn't enough to justify going with the used though, so I went with all new stuff. Haven't looked back since.

What are you trying to install exactly? Surprised that a MX shop out there didn't have any interest. I'm considering having my local MX shop do my G5 install since it doesn't have to be done at a Garmin Authorized Dealer.
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All we're looking for is a good used Nav/Com. The radio we have now is an obsolete Terra that the display is bad. If I could install a King KX155/165, I'd be extremely happy.
 
jimmyjack said:
you sure?
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Its true, Garmin is selling several radios over the counter (OTC) through dealers/distributers with the STC data package and the letter of authorization to use it. There is nothing else you need from Garmin to install them.

I'm doing dual G5s, GMU11, GAD29B on Dad's 182 right now.
 
bnt83 said:
Its true, Garmin is selling several radios over the counter (OTC) through dealers/distributers with the STC data package and the letter of authorization to use it. There is nothing else you need from Garmin to install them.

I'm doing dual G5s, GMU11, GAD29B on Dad's 182 right now.
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Who are you having install them? Doing it yourself? Interested to hear how it goes. I've read most of the install manual, and it doesn't seem overly tricky...but I still think I'd let someone do it, lol
 
BGF_Yankee said:
Who are you having install them? Doing it yourself? Interested to hear how it goes. I've read most of the install manual, and it doesn't seem overly tricky...but I still think I'd let someone do it, lol
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All myself except 91.411 and 91.413 testing.
 
Some people just don't want your money, wish I had those problems lol

Same guy will say how it's soooo hard to make any money in aviation :dunno:
 
BGF_Yankee said:
Who are you having install them? Doing it yourself? Interested to hear how it goes. I've read most of the install manual, and it doesn't seem overly tricky...but I still think I'd let someone do it, lol
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I installed my own G5 (single, attitude indicator) in my TBone, with an A&P/IA "supervising." The trickiest part was making a list of fittings for plumbing into the pitot/static system. Not being a shop, I don't have drawers and drawers full of them, so I had to look, list and order (and then try again in a couple instances). Beyond that, the attitude indicator is dead simple to install.
 
I've been toying with the idea of getting into the business because of the problem described in the OP. Seems like there's money to be made.
 
Salty said:
I've been toying with the idea of getting into the business because of the problem described in the OP. Seems like there's money to be made.
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I don't think it would be hard to make money doing it right now. I'd be able to go quite a ways if I can save $5000 on a simple nav/com install.
 
lancie00 said:
I don't think it would be hard to make money doing it right now. I'd be able to go quite a ways if I can save $5000 on a simple nav/com install.
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Until you make 1 mistake that you have to buy the gear.
I won't touch AV gear. When their used POS doesn't work, it's the shops fault.
 
I have been quoted used equipment from many shops,if you buy from a good shop they will do an install. Also if you are going to do the ADSB thing,roll that into your quote. Most shops aren’t going too do install on stuff you pick up at a fly mart.
 
Tomlinson Avionics in Pine Bluff. Down home, real Americans interested in aviation and not hustling new gear. They have done two planes for me so far. Jerry, Dickey and crew are great people.
 
I am lucky in that I have a one man shop that will install what I ask him to. Older gent, a little slower but not six months. But his prices have gone up. I am going to try and do some of it myself as I have a willing AI. Garmin is loosening up on some stuff like the GDL 82. Garmin did several You Tube videos explaining in great detail how to install a GDL-82.
 
James331 said:
Some people just don't want your money, wish I had those problems lol

Same guy will say how it's soooo hard to make any money in aviation :dunno:
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It's not hard to make money in aviation. You just have to avoid the temptation to own any airplanes. ;)
 
Salty said:
I've been toying with the idea of getting into the business because of the problem described in the OP. Seems like there's money to be made.
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Until 2020 or so. You’d have two years to pay back A&P school if you were able to magically be done with that by tomorrow.
 
lancie00 said:
On the other side, I can't even get an A&P/IA to look at avionics
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In my experience, it's all in how you approach the install of avionics. Most A&Ps aren't set up to build harnesses and test those types of installs or they don't have the experience to building/testing. Another option is to purchase your new/used equipment from a place like Sarasota Avionics and have them build the harness to spec and bench test the system. This is the method I used to good success.

If an A&P only has to measure out the wire lengths, add a circuit breaker or two, and mount the racks in the panel, you might get someone to do that vs build from scratch. And to make the rack install easier, offer to throw in Radiorax mounting rails.
 
Bell206 said:
In my experience, it's all in how you approach the install of avionics. Most A&Ps aren't set up to build harnesses and test those types of installs or they don't have the experience to building/testing. Another option is to purchase your new/used equipment from a place like Sarasota Avionics and have them build the harness to spec and bench test the system. This is the method I used to good success.

If an A&P only has to measure out the wire lengths, add a circuit breaker or two, and mount the racks in the panel, you might get someone to do that vs build from scratch. And to make the rack install easier, offer to throw in Radiorax mounting rails.
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Building a harness using DSub connectors isn't terribly difficult. It's a little tedious, shielded wire adds another level of hassle/difficulty in terms of terminating the shields, but I built the harness for my GPS and for my G5 sitting on my couch using my coffee table.
 
bradg33 said:
Building a harness using DSub connectors isn't terribly difficult.
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Agree. But it's not so much the technical aspect as the time involved. Throw in a mechanic who prefers to change brake pads or a cylinder over chasing sparks and the equation shifts away from avionics work.

In my case, I have built harnesses but only on occasion and was not proficient at it time wise. In a number of cases, I could swap out the entire "new" system with pre-made harnesses in the same amount of time as it took me to completely wire up the racks, plug-ins, speaker(s), etc from scratch--that is depending on type of interior trim installed and the condition of the "rats nest" behind the panel.

Plus to get good prices on wire (several types) and others items needed you have to purchase in bulk so I would have boxes of stuff laying around waiting on the next install when ever that might be. When I slid away from working fulltime it cost $150 a harness per radio and $200 per interfaced audio panel. It was a better deal for the owner all around and the best part was the system arrived function checked so I knew if it didn't work after install it was on me.

As shown in the posts above, if any A&P wanted to slide into a good niche market, avionics/electrical work is it.
 
Many installations do not require an avionics shop nor an AI. An audio panel, Nav/Com, or most GPS installations are minor modifications and only require a logbook entry. You have to find an A&P with the skills.
 
bradg33 said:
I installed my own G5 (single, attitude indicator) in my TBone, with an A&P/IA "supervising." The trickiest part was making a list of fittings for plumbing into the pitot/static system. Not being a shop, I don't have drawers and drawers full of them, so I had to look, list and order (and then try again in a couple instances). Beyond that, the attitude indicator is dead simple to install.
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What'd you use for GPS? Antenna or data from a navigator?
 
I found one who said he could put in a KLN94, an Icom radio and an ADSB transponder. I delivered the aircraft to him before Thanksgiving. When I went to pick it up last week nothing worked.
 
jimmyjack said:
Even then, they strongly urged me to install a GTN, but I don't want that POS.
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I can absolutely understand wanting to save money by not putting in a new unit. But from this post, it sounds like you dislike the GTN for reasons other than price. What do you not like about it? I ask because my co-owners and I need to upgrade, and I have no experience with it myself. Thanks.
 
PPC1052 said:
I can absolutely understand wanting to save money by not putting in a new unit. But from this post, it sounds like you dislike the GTN for reasons other than price. What do you not like about it? I ask because my co-owners and I need to upgrade, and I have no experience with it myself. Thanks.
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Well, to be honest, I've never held one in the flesh, only played with the sim. But I abhor touch screens. That's the biggie. It's bad enough screwing with FF in anything other than smooth air. I can't see having to fiddle with something important, like a com, in turbulence. Those hand-holds be damned, it can't be easy to use.

I find them cluttered as hell, too. You can maybe declutter some of the nonsense on the screen, but it's too busy, looks too much like a video game.

Meanwhile, the GNS line is holding their value well, if not appreciating, lol. There must be a reason for that.

I *love* my GPS400W (430W with no nav/com). I like that knobs and the buttons. After a few flights with it, the counter intuitiveness goes away and it starts to make sense. I like that it looks and acts like an older computer. It's time-tested and proven.

My 2c. There are plenty of people that think GNS is crap and love their GTN. But I'm not one of them.
 
PPC1052 said:
I can absolutely understand wanting to save money by not putting in a new unit. But from this post, it sounds like you dislike the GTN for reasons other than price. What do you not like about it? I ask because my co-owners and I need to upgrade, and I have no experience with it myself. Thanks.
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My dad liked my GTN650 so much he had to have one. After owning a GNC250XL for years I immediately liked the touch screen, I would never go back. Sure in heavy turbulence I use the knobs on it but it’s rare that I need to. The screen resolution alone is huge improvement. The rack, tray and connectors are much better than the GNS stuff. I like the Garmin connectors so much that I ordered two GNC225 connector kits to build a harness for my PMA8000BT audio panel with them.
 
I bought some new stuff and some used stuff. The Audio and GPS WAAS 400 WAAS were used the COM/NAV, Com and transponder new. The Shop I use is new and at my home airport. Worked great. I have the upper CDI going to the 400 and the lower going to the Com/Nav.Panel at night.jpg
 
jimmyjack said:
Well, to be honest, I've never held one in the flesh, only played with the sim. But I abhor touch screens. That's the biggie. It's bad enough screwing with FF in anything other than smooth air. I can't see having to fiddle with something important, like a com, in turbulence. Those hand-holds be damned, it can't be easy to use.

I find them cluttered as hell, too. You can maybe declutter some of the nonsense on the screen, but it's too busy, looks too much like a video game.

Meanwhile, the GNS line is holding their value well, if not appreciating, lol. There must be a reason for that.

I *love* my GPS400W (430W with no nav/com). I like that knobs and the buttons. After a few flights with it, the counter intuitiveness goes away and it starts to make sense. I like that it looks and acts like an older computer. It's time-tested and proven.

My 2c. There are plenty of people that think GNS is crap and love their GTN. But I'm not one of them.
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Thank you for your thoughts.
 
bnt83 said:
My dad liked my GTN650 so much he had to have one. After owning a GNC250XL for years I immediately liked the touch screen, I would never go back. Sure in heavy turbulence I use the knobs on it but it’s rare that I need to. The screen resolution alone is huge improvement. The rack, tray and connectors are much better than the GNS stuff. I like the Garmin connectors so much that I ordered two GNC225 connector kits to build a harness for my PMA8000BT audio panel with them.
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Thank you for your feedback.
 
The 750 is easy to use even in turbulence as you just brace your thumb on the edge.
 
I just redid my panel, old stuff, was barked at 5 times for mode c not working, bad intercom, and worn out, Signature/ Technicare did a great job, 750, G5’s , EDM , also, this is a new install, lots of used stuff but its being sold for a reason, so i figured do it once and get it over with, also, the install time is not fast, not at all, but is accurate and correct, along with the starter issue i was having, on another post, Good Luck,
5C96A74F-9D5E-4AD3-A9C9-325144B32789.jpeg
 
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James331 said:
Some people just don't want your money, wish I had those problems lol

Same guy will say how it's soooo hard to make any money in aviation :dunno:
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I don't think that it is so much that they don't want your money as they are busy with the ads-b mandate and installing new is easier than used. If a shop quotes a new install, they generally make it work and work with everything they said it will work with (obviously sometimes a few extra parts/antennas or work on existing equipment is needed). When someone else plans the upgrade with used equipment and something does not work right, the shop wants labor to troubleshoot and to make it work. Often the guy bringing the used equipment is going to be the one that complains the most and wants the shop to make it work for what they quoted. Not saying either side is right or wrong, just that when the shop sells new and gets to make a mark up, they have a little margin to work with. If I has a shop and could stay busy with new installs, I don't think I would want to mess with installing used equipment.



I put a 750 in my 182 and that was the gps I learned on. I have gone backwards and fly a couple of pair of 530/430 combos and a g1000 (the g1000 is only going backwards from a standpoint of touch screen, the 750 and g1000 are upgrades from the 530, being able to load airways is really nice). At the end of the day, they all operate about the same, I love the interface of the 750. I would never spend the money and labor to put in an obsolete unit unless I got it for nearly free (YMMV). On the other hand, I can't imagine upgrading a 530 to a 750 just for the sake of upgrading. If a 430/530 broke, I would send it in for repair and if not repairable, I might buy a used one that I could slide in place.

Jim
 
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