Sick of avionics shops!

[Let'sgoflying!]

Namely, just 8130's.

how do you get these for used radios?
ie, you buy a used radio from Wentworth etc; are they going to provide that tag?
(besides are bogus radios all that big a problem?)

 

[bflynn]

When someone else plans the upgrade with used equipment and something does not work right, the shop wants labor to troubleshoot and to make it work. Often the guy bringing the used equipment is going to be the one that complains the most and wants the shop to make it work for what they quoted. Not saying either side is right or wrong, just that when the shop sells new and gets to make a mark up, they have a little margin to work with. If I has a shop and could stay busy with new installs, I don't think I would want to mess with installing used equipment.

Like Salty, I'm not in the business, but I've considered getting into it because I'm pretty burned out with logistics, but well...I don't actually know that much. I've done a lot of different computer networking, built custom cabling for equipment and put together a lot of computers, but I'm willing to bet that is only half the skill.

I've done enough custom jobs that I know the only way I'd touch used equipment is on a time and materials basis and the first thing to do is bench test the equipment. Set the expectation up front that if anything is wrong with this, if something about the equipment doesn't work or isn't documented right, then it's not on me.

 

[steingar]

So a good place for an update. The KLN94 works, but doesn't communicate with its indicator. The brand new number 2 comm is useless to transmit. The little Stratus antenna, which is hardwired to ship's power and gets its feed from the band new transponder, doesn't show traffic, which it will happily do if I set it in the window. The hits keep coming. I look forward to the day when everything works and I don't have to deal with avionics shops anymore.

The one good thing is the guy who did all this has sworn off avionics installs.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I put a 750 in my 182 and that was the gps I learned on. I have gone backwards and fly a couple of pair of 530/430 combos and a g1000 (the g1000 is only going backwards from a standpoint of touch screen, the 750 and g1000 are upgrades from the 530, being able to load airways is really nice). At the end of the day, they all operate about the same, I love the interface of the 750. I would never spend the money and labor to put in an obsolete unit unless I got it for nearly free (YMMV). On the other hand, I can't imagine upgrading a 530 to a 750 just for the sake of upgrading. If a 430/530 broke, I would send it in for repair and if not repairable, I might buy a used one that I could slide in place.

Jim

Once you put the numbers together it's actually not *that* much more to put in a 750 if a 430/530 breaks. Yeah, it's more don't get me wrong but.. Garmin charges a small fortune to get them repaired/upgraded and if you have to comply with ADSB may as well just do it all at once and be done with it. The biggest upside to upgrading is that we're probably not that far from Garmin not supporting the 430W/530W anymore. I'd hate to repair one and two years later not have support if it breaks again.

 

[Topper]

Once you put the numbers together it's actually not *that* much more to put in a 750 if a 430/530 breaks. Yeah, it's more don't get me wrong but.. Garmin charges a small fortune to get them repaired/upgraded and if you have to comply with ADSB may as well just do it all at once and be done with it. The biggest upside to upgrading is that we're probably not that far from Garmin not supporting the 430W/530W anymore. I'd hate to repair one and two years later not have support if it breaks again.

I thought the fixed repair price for the 530 was as few thousand dollars. That is a long ways from a 750 installed, of course a used 530 installed (new install vs slide in repair) is not that far from the cost of the 750 and I agree completely that it would be way too close in price for a product that may not have support in the near future. If one of my 530/430's did quit, I would have to seriously take a look a the Avidyne slide in replacements.

Jim

 

[bradg33]

Once you put the numbers together it's actually not *that* much more to put in a 750 if a 430/530 breaks. Yeah, it's more don't get me wrong but.. Garmin charges a small fortune to get them repaired/upgraded and if you have to comply with ADSB may as well just do it all at once and be done with it. The biggest upside to upgrading is that we're probably not that far from Garmin not supporting the 430W/530W anymore. I'd hate to repair one and two years later not have support if it breaks again.

IIRC, flat rate repair on a 430W/530W is like $1000/1200. WAAS upgrade is in the vicinity of $3500, but that includes necessary repairs. So if you've got a unit that needs repair anyway, the effective cost of upgrading to WAAS is more like $1200.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I thought the fixed repair price for the 530 was as few thousand dollars. That is a long ways from a 750 installed, of course a used 530 installed (new install vs slide in repair) is not that far from the cost of the 750 and I agree completely that it would be way too close in price for a product that may not have support in the near future. If one of my 530/430's did quit, I would have to seriously take a look a the Avidyne slide in replacements.

Jim

Sorry I meant by the time you pay the shop for the repair/upgrade and do ADSB if you haven't done it already. When you start talking dollar amounts that big it soon becomes not so practical when you see your support window closing quickly. At least IMO.

 

[Topper]

Sorry I meant by the time you pay the shop for the repair/upgrade and do ADSB if you haven't done it already. When you start talking dollar amounts that big it soon becomes not so practical when you see your support window closing quickly. At least IMO.

I think we are on the same page. I would have a hard time upgrading an obsolete unit also. 1,500 for a repair, yes but I agree that is taking a risk. My 310 is going in for an aspen and adsb in a couple of weeks. 530/430 are already WAAS and working well (previous owner sent them in because they were dim). Hopefully they don’t give me any problems for a while.

Jim

 

[denverpilot]

The 750 is easy to use even in turbulence as you just brace your thumb on the edge.

I’ve had that go both ways with the 650. Hard enough bumps will force a finger into the screen even when braced, just hard enough to “tap”. LOL. But everything is doable for the most part without the touch screen anyway. Just have to go back to rotate the knobs mentally of the 430/530.

So a good place for an update. The KLN94 works, but doesn't communicate with its indicator. The brand new number 2 comm is useless to transmit. The little Stratus antenna, which is hardwired to ship's power and gets its feed from the band new transponder, doesn't show traffic, which it will happily do if I set it in the window. The hits keep coming. I look forward to the day when everything works and I don't have to deal with avionics shops anymore.

The one good thing is the guy who did all this has sworn off avionics installs.

And that’s why I won’t let someone who hasn’t done a A LOT of avionics installs TOUCH our airplane.

Let them learn electronics and RF interference on someone else’s dime. No matter how cheap they seem to be.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I think we are on the same page. I would have a hard time upgrading an obsolete unit also. 1,500 for a repair, yes but I agree that is taking a risk. My 310 is going in for an aspen and adsb in a couple of weeks. 530/430 are already WAAS and working well (previous owner sent them in because they were dim). Hopefully they don’t give me any problems for a while.

Jim

I don't know if you've seen my thread in this subforum or not but the 430W in our 310 went belly up last month. We almost* repaired it but ended up going with a 750, GTX345, engine monitor and a couple other goodies. The true convincing factor was ADSB and the 430 support.

*We ended up repairing it and using it for com/nav 2. Economical, right?

 

[Topper]

I have been watching your thread especially since I just purchased a 310. I think you are really going to enjoy the 750.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I have been watching your thread especially since I just purchased a 310. I think you are really going to enjoy the 750.

We have one in our 182RG so we know we'll love it

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So a good place for an update. The KLN94 works, but doesn't communicate with its indicator. The brand new number 2 comm is useless to transmit. The little Stratus antenna, which is hardwired to ship's power and gets its feed from the band new transponder, doesn't show traffic, which it will happily do if I set it in the window. The hits keep coming. I look forward to the day when everything works and I don't have to deal with avionics shops anymore.

The one good thing is the guy who did all this has sworn off avionics installs.

Yeah, this is why you use a well-regarded avionics shop to do avionics work and not just some random A&P. Most A&Ps are very mechanically minded people, and kind of weak on the electrical side to start with, even if you're talking voltage regulators and such. Avionics is a whole different ball of wax, and someone who really knows their stuff in avionics is well worth what they'll cost - and they will cost, but it'll be cheaper in the long run because it'll get done right.

I've mentioned them a few times since our upgrade, but Skycom Avionics at KUES did an outstanding job on our upgrade, and has saved us thousands on repairs to our autopilot by having smart, knowledgeable people who know how to find parts and do component-level repairs. And on that upgrade, everything was done *perfectly* including interfacing with some unusual bits in the aircraft, and it was done on time and on budget, exactly as quoted. Remember that next time you get a "cheap" avionics quote... It's never cheap.

 

[hindsight2020]

The biggest gaping hole in value in the avionics market imo is the valuation of the standalone navigator versus its +navcomm variant. A 400W is almost 3amus cheaper than the 430w and 20 hours less to install; yet a flippin' 625 is only a measly 1.5 amus from the 650? wtf. There's no reason garmin couldn't price the 625 a cool 3-amus cheaper than the +nav/comm variant and save customers 20 hours in installation in the process. That would be revolutionary. Talk about creating a new customer base outright. By the same token, an OEM who realized this underserved market and priced its stand alone navigator that competitively, would uncover a real goldmine of untapped market, the way garmin was able to with the G5 (the HSI in particular imo).

Fact remains, nav/comm capes can be had much cheaper per unit on a modular basis, so having a stand alone gps is not as much a detraction as it is portrayed by the OEMs. The only thing that keeps it "undesirable" is the ridiculous tie-in to +nav/comm navigator pricing in order to upsell you. Does Garmin really know for a fact the market for 7Amu installed GPS capability is that much smaller than the market for 15amu installed GPS? I don't think that's true, but again I also don't have venture capital to market my own gps and make a killing while proving them wrong... so I just kvetch on POA .

 

[denverpilot]

The biggest gaping hole in value in the avionics market imo is the valuation of the standalone navigator versus its +navcomm variant. A 400W is almost 3amus cheaper than the 430w and 20 hours less to install; yet a flippin' 625 is only a measly 1.5 amus from the 650? wtf.

I think that they price the 625 to keep it on the high side of “in between” the WAAS 430/530 and the Comm enabled GTNs.

 

[hindsight2020]

I think that they price the 625 to keep it on the high side of “in between” the WAAS 430/530 and the Comm enabled GTNs.

Correct. I'm just suggesting the first guy to break with that rent-seeking practice gets the worm. I contend the 7amu GPS market (no supply currently) is a lot more promising than the 15amu gps market. But it requires them to look at the forest for a second and price that 625 accordingly, the way the market has naturally priced the 400W/430w delta.

In the end it matters not, they're essentially propping the 430W pricing by that move. So they can't complain about legacy costs and people not wanting to adopt the 650. They need to look in the mirror and 625 pricing is exactly the genesis of this impasse. I understand they may not want to cannibalize 650 sales with their standalone unit, but they're being myopic with that move imo. I suppose I should be glad for Avidyne doing the smart thing and hopping on the thousands of installed 430w trays out there already; keeps garmin from getting froggy and trying to jam people by discontinuing outright support for the 430w.

 

[George Qualley IV]

Is anyone else out there having trouble getting an avionics shop to install used equipment? Every shop I talk to says "No, it's not worth installing used equipment. But here's a real nice $18,000 GPS system we can install. Wait time, 6 months. Is this the way it's always been or is the ADS-B mandate affecting shops?

On the other side, I can't even get an A&P/IA to look at avionics. I'd be more than happy to buy a unit online and install it myself with supervision but nobody will even talk to me about it.

*EDIT* As requested, I'm in north central Iowa.

When you find one, let me know—I'm in Des Moines and I'd LOVE to be able to install some of my own avionics.

 

[murphey]

More work than available shops at the moment...shops can command a high price and pick and choose which work they want to do. When I first started looking at avionics about 3 years ago, I had no trouble finding shops that would do work with used avionics. I ultimately decided the delta between used and new wasn't enough to justify going with the used though, so I went with all new stuff. Haven't looked back since.

What are you trying to install exactly? Surprised that a MX shop out there didn't have any interest. I'm considering having my local MX shop do my G5 install since it doesn't have to be done at a Garmin Authorized Dealer.

Be forewarned about the G5. Local A&P did the install, but then he called the avionics shop on the field to come over and install the software - and they discovered the GTX 335 (ADSB transponder) hadn't been updated either. I coulda done the G5 update myself but not the 335 update. Why? The G5 is a microSim card, the 335/345 requires a test harness and downloading the software from the dealer's secure site.

 

[murphey]

how do you get these for used radios?
ie, you buy a used radio from Wentworth etc; are they going to provide that tag?
(besides are bogus radios all that big a problem?)

Wentworth has the option for the 8130....at a cost, of course.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Wentworth has the option for the 8130....at a cost, of course.

over a year since that question!
claiming statute of memory-limitations.

 

[weirdjim]

Well...if somebody that had been "the biz" for 60 years decided to write a book (or CDROM) for "How To Do Owner Installs" and sell it for $10 or so, and if the author had launched a "do it yourself avionics company ("Heathkit for Airplanes") and been successful for the last 45 years, how many people would buy it? Ten? A hundred? Even a thousand? Is it worth 3 or four months of time to make ten grand? And after that what? Exponential decreasing sales to zero in five years?

T'aint worth it..I've run the numbers.

Jim

 

[Chip Sylverne]

The biggest gaping hole in value in the avionics market imo is the valuation of the standalone navigator versus its +navcomm variant. A 400W is almost 3amus cheaper than the 430w and 20 hours less to install; yet a flippin' 625 is only a measly 1.5 amus from the 650? wtf. There's no reason garmin couldn't price the 625 a cool 3-amus cheaper than the +nav/comm variant and save customers 20 hours in installation in the process. That would be revolutionary. Talk about creating a new customer base outright. By the same token, an OEM who realized this underserved market and priced its stand alone navigator that competitively, would uncover a real goldmine of untapped market, the way garmin was able to with the G5 (the HSI in particular imo).

Fact remains, nav/comm capes can be had much cheaper per unit on a modular basis, so having a stand alone gps is not as much a detraction as it is portrayed by the OEMs. The only thing that keeps it "undesirable" is the ridiculous tie-in to +nav/comm navigator pricing in order to upsell you. Does Garmin really know for a fact the market for 7Amu installed GPS capability is that much smaller than the market for 15amu installed GPS? I don't think that's true, but again I also don't have venture capital to market my own gps and make a killing while proving them wrong... so I just kvetch on POA .

A standalone gps value is very dependent on which indicator is installed. If the desire is to share an hsi with a nav/com, install costs go way up with relays, annunciators etc. And then there are the artificial stc restrictions, like on the G5. Arguably the integrated gps/nav/com can be cheaper and easier to install, depending on what's desired or already installed.
Avionics is a crazy deal. Nobody gets out unscathed.

 

[steingar]

As bad as my installation went (IFR GPS still doesn't talk to the autopilot...) I've heard worse stories. I actually don' feel that bad. Avionics shops are busy busy busy, quality seems to be going quickly out the window.

 

[bnt83]

I think my A&P IA has paid for itself about 10 times now.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Thank goodness for pink airworthiness certificates.

Used KT76A with tray, new encoder 2010. Made the harness and installed myself (had to re-do the "stack" in the process). Had a shop (Spencer Avionics) make the antenna cable for me. Another shop did the testing. Nary a problem since.
Echo UAT ADS-B in-out. Didn't even need a cable. Passed the FAA flight check thing on the first try.

RTFM.

 

[bradg33]

The biggest gaping hole in value in the avionics market imo is the valuation of the standalone navigator versus its +navcomm variant. A 400W is almost 3amus cheaper than the 430w and 20 hours less to install; yet a flippin' 625 is only a measly 1.5 amus from the 650? wtf. There's no reason garmin couldn't price the 625 a cool 3-amus cheaper than the +nav/comm variant and save customers 20 hours in installation in the process. That would be revolutionary. Talk about creating a new customer base outright. By the same token, an OEM who realized this underserved market and priced its stand alone navigator that competitively, would uncover a real goldmine of untapped market, the way garmin was able to with the G5 (the HSI in particular imo).

Fact remains, nav/comm capes can be had much cheaper per unit on a modular basis, so having a stand alone gps is not as much a detraction as it is portrayed by the OEMs. The only thing that keeps it "undesirable" is the ridiculous tie-in to +nav/comm navigator pricing in order to upsell you. Does Garmin really know for a fact the market for 7Amu installed GPS capability is that much smaller than the market for 15amu installed GPS? I don't think that's true, but again I also don't have venture capital to market my own gps and make a killing while proving them wrong... so I just kvetch on POA .

The 625 is a great unit, I put one in my TBone. Very easy to install, and I was able to pickup a 625 and a stand-alone Garmin comm for far less than a 650 would have run me (who cares about a 2nd NAV radio?). The 625 talks to my G5 HSI, and I've got an older Narco MK12D as my 2nd comm and only "nav" radio that's tied to its own CDI. Very happy with the setup.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Until you make 1 mistake that you have to buy the gear.
I won't touch AV gear. When their used POS doesn't work, it's the shops fault.

One of our local avionics shops insisted on firing up used stuff on their bench, with the customer watching (and for about an hour's labor to the customer.) They told me that 1/3 of the used stuff [all tagged] was DOA! This was back when GPS was new; I'm not sure they could do that with a lot of modern equipment (there were no used GPS units then.)

 

[Chip Sylverne]

The 625 is a great unit, I put one in my TBone. Very easy to install, and I was able to pickup a 625 and a stand-alone Garmin comm for far less than a 650 would have run me (who cares about a 2nd NAV radio?). The 625 talks to my G5 HSI, and I've got an older Narco MK12D as my 2nd comm and only "nav" radio that's tied to its own CDI. Very happy with the setup.

Looks like I'm going to go the same route with the 175. Use it to drive an HSI, use an SL30 to drive a 106A.

 

[MuseChaser]

...The little Stratus antenna, which is hardwired to ship's power and gets its feed from the band new transponder, doesn't show traffic, which it will happily do if I set it in the window....

A shot in the dark here, but maybe this'll help. If you're getting traffic when the Stratus (I'm assuming your talking about a Stratus 1s, 2, 2s or 3 adsb-in receiver) is set by a window, but not when behind the panel and on ship's power, that would indicate to me that your installer neglected to connect it properly to your Stratus ES/ESG (assuming you have one of those) or interface it with everything it needs. The interface kit for behind-the-panel installation provides for connections to power supply which it sounds like you have, GPS antenna which may or may not be hooked up properly, and adsb antenna which sounds like it is NOT hooked up properly. You mentioned no traffic... are you getting adsb weather?

 

[MIFlyer]

The 625 is a great unit, I put one in my TBone. Very easy to install, and I was able to pickup a 625 and a stand-alone Garmin comm for far less than a 650 would have run me (who cares about a 2nd NAV radio?). The 625 talks to my G5 HSI, and I've got an older Narco MK12D as my 2nd comm and only "nav" radio that's tied to its own CDI. Very happy with the setup.

/s having them separate can really run you short on panel space though /s

if you were doing it today, would you do the 375 to get one moving map GPS plus Xpndr? Do any of the garmins have a way to extend their screen the way the IFD's do?

 

[bradg33]

if you were doing it today, would you do the 375 to get one moving map GPS plus Xpndr? Do any of the garmins have a way to extend their screen the way the IFD's do?

Probably. The 375 came out a few months after I finished my project. But, I was only able to do the install DIY because I was able to find a used 625; you can't buy a new 625 or a new 375 over-the-counter. So, if I were doing it today, I'd more likely have done a 175 + 335 + comm so I didn't have to use a Garmin dealer for the install.

 

[hamer]

Thank goodness for pink airworthiness certificates.

Used KT76A with tray, new encoder 2010. Made the harness and installed myself (had to re-do the "stack" in the process). Had a shop (Spencer Avionics) make the antenna cable for me. Another shop did the testing. Nary a problem since.
Echo UAT ADS-B in-out. Didn't even need a cable. Passed the FAA flight check thing on the first try.

RTFM.

I'd love to do that but Echo UAT is only good for light sport/experimental

 

[chemgeek]

ADS-B installs are indeed eating into scheduling at avionics shops. I got in line a year ago with one of my local mechanics who is a Lynx dealer and has installed a boatload of NGT-9000s. I scheduled about 2 months ahead to coincide with an annual inspection.

Regarding installation of used equipment, put yourself in the installer's shoes. You are asking a business to put in a dated unit of unknown quality, and perhaps a device for which they are not intimately familiar with installation requirements and bugaboos. And if the used equipment doesn't function well--not necessarily because of the installation work--the installer will be the one that suffers complaints and or bad reviews of their work. Some installers MIGHT consider installing highly reliable used equipment--like a GNS-430--but even that entails risk for the installer, as they have no control over the provenance of the used equipment. For many (most?) businesses, the risks may not be worth the rewards. And by purchasing your own equipment to install, you are also depriving the business of some profit which they need to stay in business and keep overall prices competitive.

Although they are out there if you hunt for them, there are not many A&Ps that are comfortable installing avionics equipment. Anything that touches the static system or the transponder will require testing, which means owning certified testing equipment and having the credentials to use it. There are a couple of local A&P/IAs near me that can do basic avionics installs, e.g. transponders, blind encoders, glass instruments, static and transponder checks and the like. And some can even build custom harnesses that work, like the cabling I have to wire my AERA 510 to my GNS-430 for crossfeed, as well as ship power and a quick disconnect for the XM weather puck. For small or simple installs, these folks may be happy to install your procured equipment. But you may well find that these folks will also be learning how to do the installation properly on your own nickel.

Having said that, I'm happy with a couple of blind encoder installations, and an NGT-9000 and panel reorganization done by non-avionics shops. But these were relatively simple. When I did a complete panel redo with a GNS-430, GMA340, GI-106A, STEC-20, and ripped out 20 lb of obsolete avionics and wiring, I went to nearby avionics shops and bought new. These shops were able to do the installation in a very timely basis and it worked first time. And behind the panel doesn't look like a rat's nest.

Cheers, and good luck in your quest.

 

[sourdough44]

Hopefully my Stratus ESG goes in this week, with the annual. After that I’ll steer clear until the ADS madness subsides.