Should I get a different instructor?

RalphInCA

RalphInCA

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RalphInCA
I need the collective wisdom of the people on this board:

As some of you know, I recently have returned to aviation after having not flown for almost 30 years. I got my private pilots license along time ago but then had to lay off because of kids mortgage career etc.

I recently hooked up with a new CFI to get recertified.

The CFI I have been using it as a young kid, about 23 years old. I am 54. The kid is a good pilot, very sure of himself, as a strong ego and has a strong grasp of aviation fundamentals. My suspicion, although I have not asked him this, is that he is using instructing to build hours to eventually become an airline pilot, or corporate pilot.

Here is my problem: as I have aged I have learned that my memory retention and rate of learning has slowed down. I simply do not pick up on things as quickly as I used to. A typical lesson with my instructor is like this: "hi Ralph, are you ready to go fly? Good, go preflight the airplane and I will see you there in about 15 minutes." No teaching happens until we get it to the airplane.

Then when we are up in the air he starts teaching throwing a lot of things at me very quickly, expecting me to remember what he is saying while maintaining altitude heading watching for traffic etc. etc.

Then when we get back on the ground he asked me if I have any questions, waits for about 10 seconds, then proceeds to shut down the lesson, fill out my logbook and leave.

Years ago when I was flying we spent almost as much time on the ground learning as we did in the air. Shouldn't I expect this today?

Another instructor told me recently that learning should happen on the ground, and the airplane should be used to reinforce what was learned on the ground. That is a much more efficient way to do things. The airplane is a terrible classroom.

Should I look around for an instructor who is more willing to teach them to just fly? And one who is closer to my age and understands how older people learn?

Or am I just an old fuddy-duddy?
 
RalphInCA said:
Should I look around for an instructor who is more willing to teach them to just fly? And one who is closer to my age and understands how older people learn?

Or am I just an old fuddy-duddy?
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You are just an old Fuddy-Duddy. :yes::D

Just kidding.

You need to find an instructor who you can work with. Bottom line is that you should shop around for one you can get along with.

No shame in shopping.
 
Nope,
you have written very clearly what you expect. Take a print out of your message to the head of flight instruction and ask him to pair with someone that can do what you have outlined above.
 
An alternative to shopping around is to sit your CFI down and explain the facts of life, that you need a refresher at YOUR pace, not his. Make him sit down with you before the lesson and go over what he plans to cover. Do the same after the lesson...make him evaluate what you did and what needs improvement.

As for being a CFI to get hours, probably. Most CFIs are doing just that and have no long range goals to teach.

If he's not interested in what you consider a lesson, then definitely find another CFI.

Repeat this mantra over and over....

I am a customer first, a student second.
I am a customer, I sign the checks.
 
Its up to you. You are the customer. Tell your CFI what you want
 
Young CFI's with "Shiny Jet Syndrome," in my opinion, is part of what's wrong with flying today. They could care less about what they pass on or how well they teach, as long as those hours keep adding up in the books. /rant

Find a new instructor. I'm 24 and wouldn't put up with someone teaching me like that. I can't stand it. You're the one paying the bill, get what you want.

I'm looking forward to getting my CFI ticket down the road and at least attempting to fix some of the issues seen today. I want some real world experience, first.
 
I flew with a young guy and an old(er) guy
The young guy was a great instructor for my learning style but was a lot like you described your CFI.

When I flew with the "AARP" guy there was a lot more discussion, even emails back and forth and he would send me home with training and safety materials he printed out.

He always gave me something to study and told me what would be next (using the Jepp syllabus)

The "senior" instructor was not instructing to get to a goal but rather because he enjoyed it. after every checkride, he required his students to do a full write-up

before my checkride he handed me a stack of write ups.

Neither was better or worse but they were certainly different. I remain friends with both. I am not at a point where my memory is like you are describing but I will say my dad flys only with the "Early bird special" instructor and they work very well together.

In all seriousness, shop around and find someone that makes you comfortable. They work for you. Ask for recommendations in your area. I am very lucky that I got to fly with 2 guys on the opposite side of the spectrum. I even doubled up on my nights, XC, hood work, etc with each guy so I got multiple perspectives.
 
I was taught some ground stuff in the air too, and it was like a fire hose of information going into my brain. After about 5 lessons I was able to fly the plane and retain the information.

I would ask him to let you get the feel of the plane for a little bit, and then as you are comfortable flying let him start talking your ear off.
 
From your friend who took a 40 year break...

Get a different instructor. His age isn't the issue. He doesn't understand how to teach.

You should know before each lesson what the goal is and you should come in with the homework done, prepared. You should get a report card and mentoring at the end of each lesson and an assignment for the next one.

Just because someone's a great pilot doesn't mean they are a great teacher.

One other recommendation: Immerse yourself. I listen to Rob Machado and Pilot Workshops audios when I'm driving in preparation for my Instrument.

Finally, I don't know you, but don't overestimate the impact of aging. I'm finding I can learn just as fast at 59 as 17. Maybe I'm lucky. But sometimes I think we erroneously think we're slower learners and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

When people say youngsters learn faster, I say "maybe". But they frequently have the luxury of not having a full time job, family responsibilities, on and on.

In any case, I hope you will shop around for better instruction!
 
The first time around my instructor was a young kid his dad owned the planes I was a few years older than he was. Overall a pretty good instructor. I liked that he wasn't all over the controls. There was another instructor there who I hated flying with the guy couldn't keep his hand off the yoke.

This time around (20 years) I have an older retired guy. He has been good as well but neither did much on the ground. I did most of that myself so when they threw stuff at me in the air I was mostly ready but my learning style is more self study.

I am just a little younger than you but you got the hard part out of the way and that is knowing what you need and how you need it. Now just find someone who will do that for you. Having said that it may cost you some money people's time isn't free and if I were a CFI and did a lot of ground work I would expect to get paid. I suspect most guys don't want to pay for the time not in the air.
 
DFH...interesting statement..."most guys don't want to pay for the time not in the air." I think some of the most valuable instruction of all from my instructors is on the ground. The value of their instruction far surpasses what they charge me. That's just me, but I think all of us should consider ground instruction as a cost-saver.
 
I have no problem paying for on the ground instruction. I just want the learning to be efficient and effective.

I also want the learning to be fun. The last lesson I had with the young guy was extremely stressful and not all that fun.

I know that flying is serious stuff and cannot be fun all the time, but the reason I got back into aviation was because I want to do a fun and challenging thing.

Not be so stressed out that I could barely remember my name at the end of the flight.


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When I came back after a long time. I went to the school and made a reservation for a flight. The school gave me ideas of what to study before the flight. Also gave me a test on the aircraft and airspace to do at home. They assigned me a 23 year old instructor also. He was great and I got my bi annual and about 4 hrs. Flying and was back in the air.
 
Where in CA are you located?

I know a few CFIs around CA, mostly associated with CAP. I can send the word out, perhaps.
 
Different strokes for different folks. My instructing style works well for some and doesn't for others-the same is true for any other CFI out there. Find someone who works with your learning style.
 
It may be good to know how you learn. Audio, visual,Tactile. He is teaching you how he learns best. So have a discussion. While I might be an audio learner, when I am overloaded trying to keep the plane in the air, I will shut down outside audio. I made my instructor do flash cards of what he wanted to teach me in the air. You can also make the same flash cards for what we were to work on in the air. He will become a better instructor, you will learn what you need to.
 
You may be an old fuddy-duddy, but that's perfectly OK -- all it means is you need an old fuddy-duddy instructor (or a young one who can assume that teaching style as needed). Clearly, this young man is not connecting with you. If you think he's salvageable, have a "come to Jesus" meeting with him to discuss your perspective. If not, or if that doesn't work, then it's time to change instructors to one who sees the world more the way you do -- a lot of gray hair would probably be a good sign. ;)
 
RalphInCA said:
I have no problem paying for on the ground instruction. I just want the learning to be efficient and effective.

I also want the learning to be fun. The last lesson I had with the young guy was extremely stressful and not all that fun.

I know that flying is serious stuff and cannot be fun all the time, but the reason I got back into aviation was because I want to do a fun and challenging thing.

Not be so stressed out that I could barely remember my name at the end of the flight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Ralph,

We are in the same boat. I'm 56, and started flying again in March after laying off for 35 years for the same reasons. I went for my demo flight with a 26 year old "kid" who became my instructor. Great guy, very patient, 2000+ hours and knows his stuff. We always spend time on ground, and review whats in store for the lesson, then review what I did right, and wrong when we come back.

So far, I am having a blast, and I can honestly say Saturday mornings are the highlight of my week. Can it be stressful...yes, but it gets better. I have a long way to go with only 22 hours so far, but I am determined to enjoy every minute after waiting for so long.

Sit down with you CFI and explain what you want...if you don't tell him, he may think everything's good. If you explain and he doesn't come around get someone else. Don't let an incompatible CFI ruin it for you.
 
I came back 2 yrs ago at age 50 after 20 yr layoff. When I called around to FBOs I specifically asked for a CFI who had been flying over 20 yrs. I was paired up with a guy a few yrs older than me with 30 yrs experience. His day job is a corporate pilot with some previous airline time who instructs on the side. We had a good rapport, and I'll be contacting him next month for a flight review.

Also, once I started instrument training, it was obvious to me I didn't learn as fast or retain as long as I did when I started 28 yrs ago.

So to your question....I think it's ok to ask for a new instructor. As someone else said, you're the customer.
 
If the kid seems to have a personality that would be receptive to constructive criticism, I would sit him down and explain your concerns. As some others have said, many pilots don't want to pay for much ground or anything beyond the FAA mins, and he may simply be in that mode. Or not, and the only decision left is to find another instructor. I just wouldn't pull that trigger without talking to him first.

In my instructing days, I was working towards a flying career too, but I absolutely loved to instruct. Some of my favorite students were ones just like you - they were there for a specific purpose (getting a certificate), but were also wanting to strike a balance between pure financial efficiency and having a good time. If it took us an extra tenth or two to go practice landings at a grass strip, or get some BBQ for lunch - we did it. Every student is different, and that was part of the fun (and challenge) of instructing.

Anyway, don't write him off just because he's building time - being a good instructor and working towards the 'next step' aren't *always* mutually exclusive, and perhaps this guy just needs a nudge in the right direction to be more effective for your situation.
 
Great advice guys, thanks.

Before we hop in the DA40 for my next lesson, I will slow Ben down and explain what I need. We will take it from there.

I am also going to increase my own efforts to learn on the ground, between lessons. Chair flying can be done almost anywhere. May even order a poster of the DA40 cockpit to make imagining flying easier. I can pretend to be reaching for the controls with the poster in front of me.

I started to type out a text to him - since after all he is a kid and they are CONTINUOUSLY texting (even during my lessons which kind of concerns me) - but I think this would be better face to face.
 
Sounds like a plan.

I would expect your first lesson after 30 years to feel like drinking from a firehose. So if that's what it felt like, don't be too concerned. You might suggest a lunch or short x/c flight for one of your lessons if you get a little burned out on maneuvers and pattern work.
 
Not every instructor works for every student. No big deal to use someone else. I would tell the kid what your thoughts are though and give him a chance to adjust to what you want.

Keep in mind though this important thing. The student doesn't always know what they think they know or know what the really need.

In the end. You write the checks. Get what you want.

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Sounds like you have a good plan. He's young and doesn't quite get what it takes to be a good instructor. It's easy to forget once you're past the hard stuff just how much work it was and how long it can take to absorb.

Maybe there's a mutually beneficial relationship here.. you share some of your insight and help him become a better instructor and he helps you become a better pilot. I realize that you're the one paying him, so you're under no obligation to do so. But it could really open his eyes and give you a chance to help a fellow pilot.

Having said that, if he doesn't respond immediately and positively to your feedback, it's time to look for a new instructor.
 
RalphInCA said:
... CONTINUOUSLY texting (even during my lessons which kind of concerns me) ...
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That would immediately put him on my former instructor list. It's not just rude, it is theft of time that you are paying for.
 
airdale said:
That would immediately put him on my former instructor list. It's not just rude, it is theft of time that you are paying for.
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So far it has not really affected anything we've been doing. He most definitely pays attention while we are doing maneuvers and while he is actively teaching me. Sometimes he texts on the climb out to the practice area and he periodically glances at his phone during the flight.

But, again, it has not really affected the actual lesson.

This is a whole different subject, but texting has begun to permeate many people's lives. Is it rude? It is a little. But society is changing and texting is here to stay. We better get used to it.
 
But society is changing and texting is here to stay. We better get used to it.
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Rudeness has been "here to stay" for a long time, too. That does not create an obligation on me to "get used to it." Drunk driving is here to stay. Shall we get used to that as well?

When I am paying, I am due 100% attention from the person I am paying. And of course it has affected your lessons. If nothing else, it has distracted both you and him. The question of whether it has caused anything serious to happen is irrelevant, IMO anyway.
 
I have to agree with airdale. A cell phone popping out during a lesson -- or any other personal business -- would result first in a "please put that away," and then "returning to base" if it didn't go away immediately or came out again.

You're training to be PIC. Be assertive about your conditions.
 
airdale said:
Rudeness has been "here to stay" for a long time, too. That does not create an obligation on me to "get used to it." Drunk driving is here to stay. Shall we get used to that as well?

When I am paying, I am due 100% attention from the person I am paying. And of course it has affected your lessons. If nothing else, it has distracted both you and him. The question of whether it has caused anything serious to happen is irrelevant, IMO anyway.
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You say "I am due 100% attention from the person I am paying."

I disagree. You are due sufficient attention to achieve the mutually agreed-upon objectives of the exercise. The instructor is not my slave, he is paid to teach me a specific set of skills that will allow me to achieve my goals. If he can do that safely and do another thing at the same time, why should I complain?

Now, the fact that it is illegal is a different story and of course should not be ignored.

As far as being PIC, and ultimately responsible for the flight, I fully understand that concept. If what he was doing was dangerous I would stop it.

Maybe we should move this subject to a different thread.


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MAKG1 said:
I have to agree with airdale. A cell phone popping out during a lesson -- or any other personal business -- would result first in a "please put that away," and then "returning to base" if it didn't go away immediately or came out again.

You're training to be PIC. Be assertive about your conditions.
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In many cases, I use texting as an operations tool. I usually preface it with "I have to text my next student" or "I need to ask the dispatcher where this airplane is going to park."
 
RalphInCA said:
Here is my problem: as I have aged I have learned that my memory retention and rate of learning has slowed down. I simply do not pick up on things as quickly as I used to. A typical lesson with my instructor is like this: "hi Ralph, are you ready to go fly? Good, go preflight the airplane and I will see you there in about 15 minutes." No teaching happens until we get it to the airplane.
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Tell him you want a good preflight brief. I can't tell you how many of my students just want to fly.

In some sense, I see their point. Most of my ground lessons are my views on publicly available data and products.
 
You get out what you put in. Ask him questions. He's not going to know you're not picking things up unless you talk to him. Maybe start with, "What are we doing today?". And at the end, ask him something. I'm sure if he sees that there is something you want to know, he will start teaching. Since you're not really a "new student" he's probably treating you like a refresher and he's just trying to knock rust off.

Or get a new instructor... Plenty of instructors that will take it slow. No matter who you get you gotta let them know what you want though.
 
RalphInCA said:
I disagree. You are due sufficient attention to achieve the mutually agreed-upon objectives of the exercise. The instructor is not my slave, he is paid to teach me a specific set of skills that will allow me to achieve my goals. If he can do that safely and do another thing at the same time, why should I complain?
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Well, if that's your approach maybe it's OK. I would expect from him the same thing I expect from any employee: When he is on the clock he is working for me. If I had a regular employee "CONTINUOUSLY" texting he would get one warning and then he would get fired. In the case of an instructor (aka "temp") that I already wasn't happy with, I would dispense with the warning. Obviously, YMMV.

I would not object to what hook_dupin says he is doing, assuming it is infrequent and brief.
 
hook_dupin said:
In many cases, I use texting as an operations tool. I usually preface it with "I have to text my next student" or "I need to ask the dispatcher where this airplane is going to park."
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Next student should be done on YOUR time.

As for the dispatcher, that's what Unicom is for, and your student should take care of that as soon as he is able.
 
Effective teaching methods are very unique and so tailored to the individual student that it is impossible to evaluate any instructor's technique.

The only thing to consider is if the student feels he/she is not getting good training .
It is the instructor's responsibility to be attentive enough to insure the student understands the relationship and is confident in his/her teacher/leader.

One does not tell his/her teacher/doctor/lawyer how to go about handling their case just because he/she is paying money, but the effective teacher/doctor/lawyer will make his/her student/client feel confident in their case relationship.
 
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I would shop for the instructor that fits and works best with what you want to get out of it.
 
I had started training at a school and then took a 3 year break and came back. I am right now preparing for my check ride for the private pilot license and worked with 3 instructors due to time constraints and breaks due to personal reasons. Anyway at the present school when I started I mentioned to my instructor that I would like to do the training in part 61 but follow a syllabus like in part 141. He was happy to accommodate that and he adjusted the lessons as required. But both of us knew what we were going to do in a lesson. This might be an option for you and again it is all upto you since you are the one paying for the lesson. I have been instructed by a young pilot and also a experienced business jet pilot, both have been great. On the other hand there are chances of meeting instructors who simply want to log their time at the expense of a student. So go with your gut feeling and explain to your instructor what you want. If the texting and running off in 10 secs is repetitive, it is time to find a new instructor. Even practicing procedures (radio calls,maneuvers) while in your car, can help a lot :).
 
MAKG1 said:
Next student should be done on YOUR time.

As for the dispatcher, that's what Unicom is for, and your student should take care of that as soon as he is able.
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That's great, but the school doesn't have a radio and isn't likely to invest in one.

I see it this way: I don't bill my students for every second of my time spent on their behalf. As such, a few seconds here or there to make the day flow more smoothly to maximize the next guy's training is a fair trade. It's not like I'm taking selfies for Tinder here...
 
Anyone who has been in the industry long enough learns a few things.

ONE: don't let age fool you, age is not a very good indicator when it comes to many things, talent ain't like wine


TWO: That said, there are some carte blanche statements that can be made in CFIing, any instructor who doesn't give a thorough pre and post flight briefing is a chit instructor.
 
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