Sexism still exists against female pilots

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DavidWhite said:
Well, this is a hypothetical interwebz scenario so for the sake of the story we'll say they are equal.

If I was the head of a flight department (and I'm not, just some dumbass 19 year old kid) I would hire whoever I thought could do the job best. My emphasis is safety and good decision-making. If I thought the bearded lady from Ripleys believe it or not would be the better candidate, then that is who I would want.

I know three professional female pilots. I mean like IRL friends. One of them is a training director for one of the most well known flight schools in the country, another is a King-Air/Citation pilot, and the third is a DPE with about 40,000 hours that has flown everything under the sun. They have all earned everything that they have, and I would consider the third woman to be one of my aviation role-models. If you throw all of my acquaintances who are female and also pilots into the mix there are probably a dozen if not more, and I've never heard any of them say that anyone had tried to discourage them.

You (just guessing from all the fancy letters by your name) are from a different generation and dealt with a different set of challenges than my generations female aviators will.
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Your DPE friend is likely of an even earlier generation and saw even more discrimination. I am guessing you are a bit older than 19, but if you aren't old enough to be a baby boomer, then we are of a different generation. You can't tell too much by the letters. I was 27 when I got the last of the aviation ones.

IMX, the males of the younger generation, i.e. <40 or so, are vastly more likely to objectively hire a woman pilot than my generation or older. Which isn't to say all woman pilots are good at flying. The best student I ever had was male, as was the worst.

It is also interesting, to me at least, that my best student had a high school education and drove bulldozers for a living. My worst was a Ph.D engineer.
 
DavidWhite said:
If you want to see an excellent example of why some men think some women haven't "earned their seat" you just need to look at Global Girl. (Formerly known as Gulfstream Girl before she got a scare-o-gram from the legal department at Gulfstream)
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Kristin said:
It seems unlikely that super models would be applying to work for you, unless you are in the fashion industry, I which case you are probably gay.

You and Jenkins make a set of bookends.
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Cut David a little slack. He's still an adolescent. Don't know about Jenkins.
 
lr60plt said:
I didn't read this whole thread. I am just going to add that I have seen unqualified girls get hired time and time again to sit right seat in the 135/91 world just because they are attractive and the left seat guy wants something pretty to look at while on the road. Ive seen this happen with anything from a King Air to a Gulfstream.

While qualified pilots sit around and might even find some jobs hard to come by, these girls go from a 172 to a Gulfstream and into a poor crew environment considering the captains obviously dont care about having two qualified people in the cockpit.

Its not the girl's fault either...what are they supposed to do, say no?

For every woman out there that you think didn't get a job due to sexism...there is some pretty girl walking into the right seat of an airplane she's not experienced enough to be in.
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Many pilots are their own worst enemies. One of the things I try to tell aspiring commercial pilots is that many jobs are never advertised and the pilot should always assume when they are at an airport they are being sized up for a job. I tell them they don't need to go flying around in 3 piece suits, but look presentable and be considerate to others at the airport.

An example of this. I knew a freight dog who flew into an airport on a regular basis. The guy was a pig and a jerk. He often wore offensive t-shirts, often did not shower or shave, and was always hitting on the married girl behind the counter. He may have been a great pilot, but he was never offered some nice flying jobs that came up at the airport due to his appearance and attitude. I remember him complaining when a cute girl with a wet commercial certificate got a job. Let's see... fly next to a jerk who does not shower, or a nice kid with a good attitude who smells nice. Let me think about that one...
 
Kristin said:
Your DPE friend is likely of an even earlier generation and saw even more discrimination. I am guessing you are a bit older than 19, but if you aren't old enough to be a baby boomer, then we are of a different generation. You can't tell too much by the letters. I was 27 when I got the last of the aviation ones.

IMX, the males of the younger generation, i.e. <40 or so, are vastly more likely to objectively hire a woman pilot than my generation or older. Which isn't to say all woman pilots are good at flying. The best student I ever had was male, as was the worst.

It is also interesting, to me at least, that my best student had a high school education and drove bulldozers for a living. My worst was a Ph.D engineer.
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I actually am only 19. My next goal is ATP on my 23rd birthday
 
I've been reading this thread with a mixture of horror, fascination and amusement, and had been planning to stay out of it, but what the hell, I think I'll offer a few observations, for whatever they're worth.

The male posters seem to fall into a few categories:

1) the reasonable ones who realize that gender is truly irrelevant in flying and in most other pursuits (I'll concede the ones where brute strength is important, because there you men clearly have an advantage). Competency is what counts. To those of you who have expressed support for female pilots, I say thank you.

2) The reactionary ones, who want to cause trouble, and have a well-established pattern on PoA of saying all kinds of contrarian things, just to get a reaction. To those who fall into this category, I say I'm sorry your mother apparently didn't give you enough attention in your early life, leaving you to clamor for attention on an Internet board. How pathetic.

3) The confused ones, typically of a younger age, who are truly trying to sort all this nonsense out. To you I say, hang in there, you'll get it eventually. You give me hope for the future, even if some of your postings are a bit conflicted. But I understand.

As for the female posters, I see mainly one category, those who want to argue the points the reactionary ones have made. Sorry, I understand where you're coming from -- their opinions are totally outrageous, but there's really no reasoning with the unreasonable. Give it a rest. Do not feed the trolls.

Which brings me to Jenkins. Hi Pete! Didn't you promise us some blockbuster return that would blow our minds? If so, totally lame. Just what we have come to expect of you.
 
And the ignorant posters who haven't been around different parts of aviation (outside of the airline world) enough to realize that women are treated differently when it comes to hiring, etc. Some benefit by it...some do not.

If you don't know it exists than you either are blind to it or simply refuse to believe it.
 
lr60plt said:
And the ignorant posters who haven't been around different parts of aviation (outside of the airline world) enough to realize that people in the same victim group are treated differently when it comes to hiring, etc. Some benefit by it...some do not.
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Fixed it for you.
 
lr60plt said:
And the ignorant posters who haven't been around different parts of aviation (outside of the airline world) enough to realize that women are treated differently when it comes to hiring, etc. Some benefit by it...some do not.

If you don't know it exists than you either are blind to it or simply refuse to believe it.
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This has nothing to do with hiring, since I was just a student pilot, but I had one flight school clearly treat me differently. My CFI was constantly talking about "girl pilots" whenever he'd hear them on the radio. Really? And in the year I spent there, I never saw another female pilot, student or otherwise. It kind of sent a message to me. There were other issues, as well, as to why this school wasn't working out for me, but I eventually moved on to another school that treated me with respect. At the new school, I was just another student pilot -- gender was unimportant. It made all the difference in my training. I know that's hard for someone who hasn't experienced it to understand, but trust me, it's a big deal.
 
Eagle I said:
I know that's hard for someone who hasn't experienced it to understand, but trust me, it's a big deal.
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I'm sure it is. What my comments were in regards to were simply hiring advantages/disadvantages. I know plenty of solid, respectable female pilots that I have no problem sitting in the backseat of a jet with. I also know some female pilots that I would never want to be in that same position with....nothing different from the good/bad male pilots I know. I rarely hear of a case about other pilots thinking women should not be pilots at all or start training, etc.

I'm sure the girl I recently met who went from a fresh cfi ticket and 3-400 hours in a 172 to flying charter in a G4 because of her cute social-media picture doesn't feel like a victim.
 
Eagle I said:
Wow. So anyone who claims discrimination is just playing the victim card? Funny, because you seem to be saying men are the victims here! Oh, boo hoo!:D
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I said nothing of the kind, although there is a large group of men who are legal members of victim groups.

Edited to add: In fact, most men in the United States are members of one or more victim groups.
 
lr60plt said:
I'm sure it is. What my comments were in regards to were simply hiring advantages/disadvantages. I know plenty of solid, respectable female pilots that I have no problem sitting in the backseat of a jet with. I also know some female pilots that I would never want to be in that same position with....nothing different from the good/bad male pilots I know. I rarely hear of a case about other pilots thinking women should not be pilots at all or start training, etc.

I'm sure the girl I recently met who went from a fresh cfi ticket and 3-400 hours in a 172 to flying charter in a G4 because of her cute social-media picture doesn't feel like a victim.
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Actually, I thought we were in agreement.:) So I'm just curious about this line of thought that i perceive here (and I don't mean from you necessarily): if there's an attractive female pilot, the thinking seems to be that she's not particularly good, but was hired because of her looks. Maybe she is good, maybe she isn't. I don't know. But how do the looks-are-everything people explain the bad male pilots out there. There were two high-profile crashes in which the male pilots clearly had no idea what they were doing, and didn't even understand the basic characteristics of a stall (Colgan Air, Air France 447). How were they hired? And please don't tell me they were hired by women who thought they were eye candy!:D
 
Jackie Cochran , betty Skelton, ( who soloed a t craft at 12 yrs. old) Cholene Espanoza, ....U2 pilot, and all those women who flew P51's , P38s, jugs, etc. during WW2 would get a big kick out of this discussion.
 
Eagle I said:
Actually, I thought we were in agreement.:) So I'm just curious about this line of thought that i perceive here (and I don't mean from you necessarily): if there's an attractive female pilot, the thinking seems to be that she's not particularly good, but was hired because of her looks. Maybe she is good, maybe she isn't. I don't know. But how do the looks-are-everything people explain the bad male pilots out there. There were two high-profile crashes in which the male pilots clearly had no idea what they were doing, and didn't even understand the basic characteristics of a stall (Colgan Air, Air France 447). How were they hired? And please don't tell me they were hired by women who thought they were eye candy!:D
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Good point! Its just one of those things I have to throw my hands up and say I have no clue...

It seems like in a world where pilot shortages come and go...even the bad ones will get a job eventually.
 
JimNtexas said:
In fact, most men in the United States are members of one or more victim groups.
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Oh, most of us -- men AND women -- are victims of one sort or another. But most of us have long learned to shed that label, and don't let it define us. We move on, and thrive. It's the ones who cling to that label who are left bitter and impotent. And I don't mean that in a male way.;)
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Jackie Cochran , betty Skelton, ( who soloed a t craft at 12 yrs. old) Cholene Espanoza, ....U2 pilot, and all those women who flew P51's , P38s, jugs, etc. during WW2 would get a big kick out of this discussion.
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I don't recognize these names, but I will be sure now to look them up. Thanks!
 
lr60plt said:
Good point! Its just one of those things I have to throw my hands up and say I have no clue...

It seems like in a world where pilot shortages come and go...even the bad ones will get a job eventually.
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I guess that's my point. Whether we're talking pilots or any other profession, there are good ones and there are bad ones, male and female. I think people tend to inject their own biases/issues into why this is so, but the truth of the matter is, it just is. People are people.
 
Kristin said:
It seems unlikely that super models would be applying to work for you, unless you are in the fashion industry, I which case you are probably gay.

You and Jenkins make a set of bookends.
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There's at least one lawsuit that was settled out if court by a private jet owner in the fashion industry who let one of his pilots go because he didn't look the part.
 
Eagle I said:
Oh, most of us -- men AND women -- are victims of one sort or another. But most of us have long learned to shed that label, and don't let it define us. We move on, and thrive. It's the ones who cling to that label who are left bitter and impotent. And I don't mean that in a male way.;)
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Oh you poor dear! You're a victim?

You think you're pretty smart, don't you? Coming on here and giving us your wisdom and being so dismissive. You cannot escape certain truths that the vast majority of people reading this forum will know. What are those truths? Sexism exists yes, but it goes BOTH ways. I absolutely agree with other posters here that in many cases certain women have an advantage. We are all aware of attractive female candidates who win when competing with equally qualified male candidates. Yes there are many qualified women who do not progress to the level they should. I am not denying that. But stop claiming that it is all that way and that there are not a great many number of men out there who have been DISCRIMINATED against because they are not attractive and female. I have seen it first hand. So have many others here.

And let's not talk about racism. It is laughable, yes laughable, how people like you blow this out of proportion when America has much larger problems with prejudice in other areas.

I like how both you and Kristin attempt to belittle some male posters by inferring that they are gay or impotent. How does that make you any better than some of the posters who have offended you? If a male poster came on here making sexist comments like that about you two ladies (and I use that term loosely), there would be all hell to pay. Very tacky also your attack on a 19 year old male poster here. Shame on you!

I find your postings and this bitter Kristin attorney (who also in a very low class manner made all kinds of threats about legal action) very offensive.

My first and last post here.
 
Cavorter said:
Oh you poor dear! You're a victim?

You think you're pretty smart, don't you? Coming on here and giving us your wisdom and being so dismissive. You cannot escape certain truths that the vast majority of people reading this forum will know. What are those truths? Sexism exists yes, but it goes BOTH ways. I absolutely agree with other posters here that in many cases certain women have an advantage. We are all aware of attractive female candidates who win when competing with equally qualified male candidates. Yes there are many qualified women who do not progress to the level they should. I am not denying that. But stop claiming that it is all that way and that there are not a great many number of men out there who have been DISCRIMINATED against because they are not attractive and female. I have seen it first hand. So have many others here.

And let's not talk about racism. It is laughable, yes laughable, how people like you blow this out of proportion when America has much larger problems with prejudice in other areas.

I like how both you and Kristin attempt to belittle some male posters by inferring that they are gay or impotent. How does that make you any better than some of the posters who have offended you? If a male poster came on here making sexist comments like that about you two ladies (and I use that term loosely), there would be all hell to pay. Very tacky also your attack on a 19 year old male poster here. Shame on you!

I find your postings and this bitter Kristin attorney (who also in a very low class manner made all kinds of threats about legal action) very offensive.

My first and last post here.
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Hi Pete! Welcome back -- again!:D
 
Well, I see there are way too many cats/Kats here, so before I leave for work, I'd just like to say that with the exception of my one flight school that seemed to be a good-old-boys club that didn't have much use for women, in general, I have always found the men I've met through my aviation pursuits to be complete gentlemen, and thoroughly interested in me as a pilot. They have been nothing but courteous and supportive, and I've enjoyed meeting them.
 
Eagle I said:
Which brings me to Jenkins. Hi Pete! Didn't you promise us some blockbuster return that would blow our minds? If so, totally lame. Just what we have come to expect of you.
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He tried already, with that thread about old pilots having to quit. Didn't really take off, it was OK, but nowhere near his "Checkride gone horribly wrong".
He's a one hit wonder apparently. I was a little disappointed.
 
Johann said:
He tried already, with that thread about old pilots having to quit. Didn't really take off, it was OK, but nowhere near his "Checkride gone horribly wrong".
He's a one hit wonder apparently. I was a little disappointed.
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That's the nature of one-hit wonders, unfortunately.:)
 
Eagle I said:
Well, I see there are way too many cats/Kats here, so before I leave for work, I'd just like to say that with the exception of my one flight school that seemed to be a good-old-boys club that didn't have much use for women, in general, I have always found the men I've met through my aviation pursuits to be complete gentlemen, and thoroughly interested in me as a pilot. They have been nothing but courteous and supportive, and I've enjoyed meeting them.
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Nice attempt to backpedal.

:rofl:

Too late! You came across as yet another loser who feels the need to blame their membership in some victim class on their failure to succeed in life.

Funny how the successful women (and men) don't feel the need to bleat about how downtrodden they are.
 
Johann said:
He tried already, with that thread about old pilots having to quit. Didn't really take off, it was OK, but nowhere near his "Checkride gone horribly wrong".
He's a one hit wonder apparently. I was a little disappointed.
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Well.... allegedly, he has multiple handles here and is trying to build some history and credibility... Because any new user who does NOT have some insipid boring "Hi! I'm Johann! I'm a 40 year old virgin who has just decided to learn how to fly!" generic pathetic initial email gets immediately flagged as being probably "not real" or even, gasp, a troll...

Now this is just a guess on my part. Complete guesses. I do not know this Pete.


:devil:

PS Kat and Kristin. I forgive both of you. I'd hire both of you in a flash.
 
Cavorter said:
Well.... allegedly, he has multiple handles here and is trying to build some history and credibility... Because any new user who does NOT have some insipid boring "Hi! I'm Johann! I'm a 40 year old virgin who has just decided to learn how to fly!" generic pathetic initial email gets immediately flagged as being probably "not real" or even, gasp, a troll...

Now this is just a guess on my part. Complete guesses. I do not know this Pete.


:devil:

PS Kat and Kristin. I forgive both of you. I'd hire both of you in a flash.
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Hahaha good one :D

This is a forum though, people don't send "initial emails". Do you also troll in email lists and got confused? :dunno:
 
How many shades can come out of the woodwork in one thread?
 
Cavorter said:
Well.... allegedly, he has multiple handles here and is trying to build some history and credibility... Because any new user who does NOT have some insipid boring "Hi! I'm Johann! I'm a 40 year old virgin who has just decided to learn how to fly!" generic pathetic initial email gets immediately flagged as being probably "not real" or even, gasp, a troll...

Now this is just a guess on my part. Complete guesses. I do not know this Pete.


:devil:

PS Kat and Kristin. I forgive both of you. I'd hire both of you in a flash.
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Cavoter AKA Pete? Join date TODAY -multiple personalities ya think?

BTW still waiting for the photo so I can post for all to enjoy...:yikes:
 
At least the twit is obvious enough that I can usually spot and ignore him after one or two posts.
 
Cavorter said:
Oh you poor dear! You're a victim?

You think you're pretty smart, don't you? Coming on here and giving us your wisdom and being so dismissive. You cannot escape certain truths that the vast majority of people reading this forum will know. What are those truths? Sexism exists yes, but it goes BOTH ways. I absolutely agree with other posters here that in many cases certain women have an advantage. We are all aware of attractive female candidates who win when competing with equally qualified male candidates. Yes there are many qualified women who do not progress to the level they should. I am not denying that. But stop claiming that it is all that way and that there are not a great many number of men out there who have been DISCRIMINATED against because they are not attractive and female. I have seen it first hand. So have many others here.

And let's not talk about racism. It is laughable, yes laughable, how people like you blow this out of proportion when America has much larger problems with prejudice in other areas.

I like how both you and Kristin attempt to belittle some male posters by inferring that they are gay or impotent. How does that make you any better than some of the posters who have offended you? If a male poster came on here making sexist comments like that about you two ladies (and I use that term loosely), there would be all hell to pay. Very tacky also your attack on a 19 year old male poster here. Shame on you!

I find your postings and this bitter Kristin attorney (who also in a very low class manner made all kinds of threats about legal action) very offensive.

My first and last post here.
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An obvious troll. Or is that troglodyte. I guess if my reading comprehension was as bad as yours, I would create a new identity each day. Your courage is amazing.
 
eaglepilot said:
How do you ignore someone? Not that Message Board Savvy.
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Click the username on one of their posts; then click "View Public Profile". On their profile page, click "User Lists" then "Add to ignore list". Now, enjoy the relative peace and quiet. You'll only see their commentary when someone quotes them.
 
DaleB said:
Click the username on one of their posts; then click "View Public Profile". On their profile page, click "User Lists" then "Add to ignore list". Now, enjoy the relative peace and quiet. You'll only see their commentary when someone quotes them.
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Oh thank god. He's gone now. Every time he pipes up on a thread just seeing that fat white pasty face is something I've never got used to. I would never say that to his face so what a relief he is gone.

Him or a pretty girl (same qualifications)? Sorry pretty girl every time...

:rofl:
 
edit: harumph
 
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I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept women as equals and not have to make stupid jokes about it.

It's the same way in car culture, too.

People don't understand that even without overt exclusion, the jokes, comments, etc make these communities a hostile environment for women. And that's a shame.
 
Kristin said:
I was trying to give you a somewhat graceful way to clarify your remarks. Rather you chose to wrap the rope around you neck and jump off the chair. So be it.

If you are in the U.S, you are probably already open to a gender discrimination suit. If you hire "eye candy" over better qualified females who do not rate on your "petermeter", then if one of them whom you didn't hire can sue you up one side and down the other. I would take the case with pleasure.

I do commend your honesty at so openly confessing how much of a pig you really are. I haven't run into anyone that seems quite as proud of it as you are. Most men in responsible positions, can manage to make executive decisions using their larger head, and not their smaller one. There are of course some who find that difficult to impossible. In this country, they put their employers in a lot of jeopardy.

I don't know what industry you are in. If it is the porn industry, then you are on safe ground as looks are a bona fide occupational qualification. Ditto fashion modelling, etc. I am not sensing that such is the case with you as you claim that only men are actually qualified, though I guess if you were into gay porn that would cover you as well.

However, in the airline industry, and most other industries with which I have experience, coworkers don't make the hiring decisions. Management makes the hiring decisions. That is certainly true of the airlines. Now if I was running recruitment at an airline, I would be more worried about having some pig in the cockpit who might be so focused on the looks of the other pilot that they would be unable to perform their tasks in a competent manner.

My experience with guys like you is that they are mostly all over the half century mark in age. You are not likely to find that the younger generation of men diving in to wallow in the same attitudinal slop that you find so enjoyable.
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Kristen, the only problem here is that beauty IS attractive. It's attractive to men. And it's attractive to women. Most people will pick competent over looks, but if all factors are even, then the better looking person tends to win. Horribly unfair and not politically correct (after all, the less attractive person should be advantaged, right?). It's not just about how men perceive women; it's about how both sexes perceive each other, and people like being around attractive people of the opposite sex.

I suspect it is extremely rare that people get hired on looks alone. But what does happen is that when there is a ridiculous surplus of qualified candidates, the better looking one gets hired. Being truly beautiful may be a disadvantage because the opposite sex will tend to have a difficult time measuring competence in a brief window of time, and will become suspicious--but being "above average" is a great help. The men whom you dismiss so energetically are pointing to a truth that won't be wiped out by political correctness. And that is that people respond to beauty, period. If anything, women are more sensitive to this factor (in both women and men!), than men are.
 
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