Serious question regarding required placards

C-120 8550

C-120 8550

Filing Flight Plan
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Dorothy: not in Kansas anymore
This is a serious question about regulations. Not best practice, or common sense, which as we all know have no place in bureaucratic or regulatory language.

The FAA has clear regulations regarding the fact that required placards be word for word, in English (yeah redundant), the letter height specified, the thickness of the required solid lines, the ratio of height to width, the ratio of letter to space between letters and the space between words, the contrast of letters to background, readability, the permanence of the method of affixing...

I find no guidance on the angle to horizontal or to the pilot. Only that they be in clear sight of pilot and readable (which would to my mind cover it).

Is there a regulation, or part therof, that I am not aware of?

Thanks
 
C-120 8550 said:
The FAA has clear regulations regarding the fact that required placards be word for word, in English (yeah redundant), the letter height specified, the thickness of the required solid lines, the ratio of height to width, the ratio of letter to space between letters and the space between words, the contrast of letters to background, readability, the permanence of the method of affixing...
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And what regulations would that be? And why the question?
C-120 8550 said:
I find no guidance on the angle to horizontal or to the pilot.
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There is some very specific guidance on some very specific installations of certain placards/markings but no general guidance except as you noted:"Only that they be in clear sight of pilot"
 
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Bell206 said:
And what regulations would that be? And why the question? There is some very specific guidance on some very specific installations of certain placards/markings but no general guidance except as you noted: "Only that they be in clear sight of pilot"
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14 CFR 45.13 as expounded on (and expanded) in AC 45-4. An IO being one because he doesn't have one. So far nobody has offered me a regulation that states that a placard must be installed with a level with a +/- tolerance of X degrees. I mean-- maaaaaaaaaaaybe if they were upside down you could argue that they were not readable... But the reg actually reads "in clear sight of," not "readable."
 
Part 45 only talks about registration and ID marking, not required placards. Placards are part of the aircraft certification requirements (Part 23), and all it says is:

§ 23.2610 Instrument markings, control markings, and placards.
(a) Each airplane must display in a conspicuous manner any placard and instrument marking necessary for operation.

(b) The design must clearly indicate the function of each cockpit control, other than primary flight controls.

(c) The applicant must include instrument marking and placard information in the Airplane Flight Manual.
 
C-120 8550 said:
14 CFR 45.13 as expounded on (and expanded) in AC 45-4.
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If I understand you correctly, you are asking about placards that are required to provide a pilot or flight crew with required operational information? If so, then Part 45 does not apply to those placards and AC45-4 only applies to LSA markings and placards which excludes TC’d aircraft. So if you are looking for the regulatory guidance on those types of operational placards and their appropriate locations, you’ll need to research a number of different documents like CAR3/Part 23, TCDS/Aircraft Specifications, AFMs, STCs, OEM bulletins, 337s, etc. as there is no one reference that lists all those types of placards and markings.
C-120 8550 said:
An IO being one because he doesn't have one.
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What's an IO?
C-120 8550 said:
So far nobody has offered me a regulation that states that a placard must be installed with a level with a +/- tolerance of X degrees.
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To my knowledge there is no regulation or guidance requiring placards to be within a certain degree field of view. As I mentioned, there are specifics on certain markings/placards like registration markings, PMA markings, EXPERIMENTAL placards, instrument markings, and emergency exit placards, but even those do not require a defined field of view other than “visible from the ground” or “visible to the pilot” and so on.

Why the inquiry? Someone questioning how you have a placard installed on your instrument panel?
 
IO= a slimy creature impersonating a human being and claiming to be an FAA Inspection Officer. I know he is an imposter because he could not accurately identify the aircraft that I was in charge of (in spite of it having an "N-number" painted on it.) He wasn't aware of very much. For instance, that I could decline to allow him in the aircraft, and that I only had to show him-- not give him-- my credentials. He gave me a form 8620-1 for "incorrectly applied placards," to whit the required placards were in place but at an approximate 12 degree angle to horizontal.

Fortunately the airport has multiple cameras and his unhappiness with my truthful answers to his questions drew witnesses. Maybe he will do better at his next job (I hear that companies that pick dog-dookey up out of rich peoples yard are hiring, although that might be just a bit over this Neanderthal's head). Although it might be difficult to find any job at all since he just violated 18 USC 1001.
 
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C-120 8550 said:
IO= a slimy creature impersonating a human being and claiming to be an FAA Inspection Officer. I know he is an imposter because he could not accurately identify the aircraft that I was in charge of (in spite of it having an "N-number" painted on it.) He wasn't aware of very much. For instance, that I could decline to allow him in the aircraft, and that I only had to show him-- not give him-- my credentials. He gave me a form 8620-1 for "incorrectly applied placards," to whit the required placards were in place but at an approximate 12 degree angle to horizontal.

Fortunately the airport has multiple cameras and his unhappiness with my truthful answers to his questions drew witnesses. Maybe he will do better at his next job (I hear that companies that pick dog-dookey up out of rich peoples yard are hiring, although that might be just a bit over this Neanderthal's head). Although it might be difficult to find any job at all since he just violated 18 USC 1001.
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:rolleyes:. Sorry I asked. Given the ASI went to the extent of issuing a condition notice, I'm sure there was more to this than a placard issue. Be careful what you wish for.;)
 
Daleandee said:
Did you ask to see his credentials?
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Yup, got a nice clear picture of them for my attorney.
Bell206 said:
:rolleyes:. Sorry I asked. Given the ASI went to the extent of issuing a condition notice, I'm sure there was more to this than a placard issue. Be careful what you wish for.;)
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You assume that it is more than an arrogant little pisquant who did not appreciate being told that's exactly what he was. Why the FAA employs people with zero knowledge of aviation is a mystery. IO made provably false statements on the 8620-1-- about things in the FAA's own database, as well as stating that an airworthy aircraft was not. It's in the hands of the federal court system now. The FAA answers to them.
 
C-120 8550 said:
You assume that it is more than an arrogant little pisquant who did not appreciate being told that's exactly what he was. Why the FAA employs people with zero knowledge of aviation is a mystery. IO made provably false statements on the 8620-1
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C-120 8550 said:
It's in the hands of the federal court system now.
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I don't assume nothing. But given your use of improper terminologies and the context of your comments I'll stick to my original summation that there's a lot more to this than you choose to admit. However, before you dig yourself a deeper hole both with your local FSDO and here at PoA, keep in mind FAA condition notices and FAR violations fall under FAA administrative law and rarely go past the NTSB administrative appeal process. So its highly doubtful you are at the "federal court system" level over a simple placards rap. Trust me. Been there done that. :eek::rolleyes:
 
Look in the operating limitations section of your POH. Placards required for flight are depicted in there and may specify location.
 
Was there a rule you Allegedly violated on the condition notice?
 
Bell206 said:
I don't assume nothing. But given your use of improper terminologies and the context of your comments I'll stick to my original summation that there's a lot more to this than you choose to admit. However, before you dig yourself a deeper hole both with your local FSDO and here at PoA, keep in mind FAA condition notices and FAR violations fall under FAA administrative law and rarely go past the NTSB administrative appeal process. So its highly doubtful you are at the "federal court system" level over a simple placards rap. Trust me. Been there done that. :eek::rolleyes:
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Placing hands is a state assault charge. Placing provably false information on a US Government document to whit a 8620-1 is a federal crime. I'm not appealing anything. The FAA can of course simultaneously attempt to bring an enforcement action under administrative law because the owner (not me) for some bizzare reason placed the required placards at an angle on the instrument panel but since their employee made numerous errors (not a Piper Cub, no electrical system and no radio, no MEL) I doubt they will be very successful.

"before you dig yourself a deeper hole both with your local FSDO..."
What an odd statement... What are you suggesting? Something extra-legal? Have you experienced this?

"there's a lot more to this than you choose to admit."
Maybe, but I'd need access to FAA personnel and maybe psychological records... Apparently Inspector Dipschidt asked a dozen people who can actually identify airplanes about "the Cub" and was already quite pea-ohed when he got to me and tried to bully his way through me. With such a personality one would think he would be used to having a girl say no to him. "Not a Cub, not flying today, no you may not enter, don't touch." Phished him off royally. Got it footage of it all on the security cameras too.
 
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aftCG said:
Look in the operating limitations section of your POH. Placards required for flight are depicted in there and may specify location.
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Old airplane (not mine) built before POHs.
rotormatic1 said:
Was there a rule you Allegedly violated on the condition notice?
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It is a two seat side-by-side, but only the left seat has controls. The owner affixed three required placards on the blank right side of the instrument panel at a 12 or 13 degree angle (high left, low right) whatever... All the type certificate says is that they be permanently affixed in view of the pilot.
 
It doesn’t really matter what the owner did, the regs apply to the owner operator. Now that you have decided to poke a sleeping dog, come back later and show us the teeth marks.

Yea, yea, you have an attorney. Hopefully you have as much money as the FAA too because their attorneys are on salary.
 
In any encounter with law enforcement, be it a police officer or FAA inspector, the citizen's attitude goes a long way in setting the tone of the encounter. Judging from the tone of the posts here, even allowing for righteous indignation after the fact, I'm guessing that was a large part of what happened during this ramp check, assuming that's what it was.

Then, immediately lawyering up over what should be a minor matter is just throwing fuel on the fire.
 
C-120 8550 said:
Placing provably false information on a US Government document to whit a 8620-1 is a federal crime
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Really? Then please share with us this false information and what regulation you have violated as written on your Form 8620-1. And while your at it which federal jurisdiction did you file your claim in against the ASI?
C-120 8550 said:
because the owner (not me
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So if it wasnt your aircraft why the atitude? I hope you let the owner know about the predicament you put him in.
C-120 8550 said:
What an odd statement... What are you suggesting?
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If you dont know the meaning of "digging yourself into a hole" by now theres not much more I can offer.
C-120 8550 said:
Maybe
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Maybe? Ha. Sounds more like you let your mouth get ahead of your mind. Some people never learn. Good luck.
 
C-120 8550 said:
Old airplane (not mine) built before POHs.

It is a two seat side-by-side, but only the left seat has controls. The owner affixed three required placards on the blank right side of the instrument panel at a 12 or 13 degree angle (high left, low right) whatever... All the type certificate says is that they be permanently affixed in view of the pilot.
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not in the POH or “owners manual” for old planes but they are in the TCDS… My IA and I reviewed them there when I redid the interior of my plane.
 
“I was an *******. FAA inspector responded in kind. I have hired an attorney who is an idiot, and therefore I need legal advice from some guy on the internet.”
 
MauleSkinner said:
“I was an *******. FAA inspector responded in kind. I have hired an attorney who is an idiot, and therefore I need legal advice from some guy on the internet.”
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kep5niner said:
Bizarre post…OP/troll - relax…
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The argumentativeness suggests trolling and or at least someone who may have ****ed off an ASI during a ramp check enough to get him to start looking for minor issues, such as the marginally vague common "clear view" of a pilot or passenger requirement. Be that as it may, I guess one question is, what placard on what airplane. One possibility is a placard with a specific location requirement. Sometimes the requirement for a placard indicates its specific location. As an example, this is part of one AD for a simple Cessna 150 (with emphasis)...

For Model 150, 150 A/B/C, airplanes accomplish the following:
(1) Remove the placard required by STC SA4795SW which states the category and weight limits and begins with the words "THIS AIRPLANE MAY BE OPERATED . . ." The placard should be located on the right hand door post.
(2) Fabricate a placard with the following statement using letters with a minimum height of 1/8 inch: "NOT APPROVED FOR SPINS." Install this placard in clear view of the pilot on the airplane instrument panel.​
 
midlifeflyer said:
The argumentativeness suggests trolling and or at least someone who may have ****ed off an ASI during a ramp check enough to get him to start looking for minor issues, such as the marginally vague common "clear view" of a pilot or passenger requirement. Be that as it may, I guess one question is, what placard on what airplane. One possibility is a placard with a specific location requirement. Sometimes the requirement for a placard indicates its specific location. As an example, this is part of one AD for a simple Cessna 150 (with emphasis)...

For Model 150, 150 A/B/C, airplanes accomplish the following:
(1) Remove the placard required by STC SA4795SW which states the category and weight limits and begins with the words "THIS AIRPLANE MAY BE OPERATED . . ." The placard should be located on the right hand door post.
(2) Fabricate a placard with the following statement using letters with a minimum height of 1/8 inch: "NOT APPROVED FOR SPINS." Install this placard in clear view of the pilot on the airplane instrument panel.​
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if it’s a 120 as pic and name implies… there’s not many- there were a whole two when I redid my 140 interior and I’d doubt one of the two would be required in the 120 - forget the specifics in the TCDS but one of the two was to prohibit spins with flaps- but no flaps on a 120…
 
The FAA thanks you for your cooperation, citizen.

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I've yet to see the same placards on two airplanes of the same type. Have no idea of what's required and what isn't.
 
Now why would a person who doesn't own the airplane and wasn't operating it be dealing with an ASI who had questions about it in the first place?
 
Gary Ward said:
Where is good place to buy replacement placards for the interior? TIA
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I had a trophy place make mine, so they are on a brass liking plaque w black lettering. I didn’t want label maker ones like ya see so often…
 
Gary Ward said:
Where is good place to buy replacement placards for the interior? TIA
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Depends on what you need. For a one-off decal/placard with todays graphic programs/apps you can scan/create and print. If looking for a whole set or common placards most aircraft suppy vendors offer placards by model type. Or you can look to the OEM and online aircraft grahics venders as well. I usually printed out decals on my computer or used a local graphics place for larger requirements.
 
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Bell206 said:
Depends on what you need. For a one-off decal/placard with todays graphic programs/apps you can scan/create and print. If looking for a whole set or common placards most aircraft suppy vendors offer placards by model type. Or you can look to the OEM and online aircraft grahics venders as well. I usually printed out decals on my computer or used a local graphics place for larger requirements.
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Thanks, make sense.
 
Gary Ward said:
Where is good place to buy replacement placards for the interior? TIA
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Depends on what you need and then what you want. Fuel tank placards, just buy and fill in the required quantity. Some AD's get specific (height, size, colour, etc). Some people like the roll your own with computers or label makers. Some like more elaborate styles and want something that will wear well - professional sign/placard makers. I don't like the generic sheets of placards or the label maker stuff myself - they don't last, but they are cheap. Some want the bare minimum, some want fancy and/or quantity (the step marked as "STEP").
 
FWIW: FAA employee charged in state court and suspended awaiting termination...

You geniuses well... Talk among yourself...

Prob my last reply here, people get the gov't they deseve . MAYBE regulation is necessary, but when it is done by criminals it has no moral basis and should be ignored... It must be ignored and resisted by free people.
 
C-120 8550 said:
FAA employee charged in state court and suspended awaiting termination...Prob my last reply here,
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Ha. A Federal employee terminated. Now that is funny. Should have stopped while you were ahead buckaroo.:confused:
 
Bell206 said:
A Federal employee terminated. Now that is funny.
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I have friends and family that are Federal employees and they are difficult if not impossible to terminate regardless of how inept they are. It was the same for state employees when I was there.
 
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