Sent in for Prop Reseal - Now saying I need new prop! 172RG

Nathan N

Nathan N

Filing Flight Plan
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Nov 21, 2018
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Nathan
Hello everyone,

I hope you're all doing well!

I got some unfortunate news today and was hoping I could pick some of your brains regarding the issue.

I have a Cessna cutlass 172RG and the prop was spitting out some grease. I took it to our local mechanic shop here in Las Vegas as we don't have a prop shop here and they said the it was a seal and propeller needed to be resealed. They sent it to American Propeller Service in Redding California.

They came back and said the following:
"both blades were found to be rejected the blades are below minimum dimension in sealing area."

The quote they provided is attached. Nearly 10k :(

Can someone please advise? Any light you can shed on this situation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advanced!
 

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American Prop is a pretty good outfit, and I'd trust that they're not trying to make any boat payments when they say your old blades are past limits.

That said... Is that a quote for a new prop? I'd shop that. 9 grand seems a bit much. They are quoting through your shop, so there may be some markup arrangement. We never did that with them, but it's common enough.

In addition to the C220 you'd be pulling off, there are cutlass options for a scimitar, MT, or 3 blade black mac. I bet you can shop around and find the best bang for your buck.
 
I agree that American Propeller is a reputable outfit, so I place some degree of trust in their evaluation. It is not uncommon to find a good used prop on eBay for $5K or less. There is risk and reward with each option.
 
For my 2018 annual the prop went for routine overhaul. When the overhaul facility broke it down they found a couple of small pits inside the hub. Hub was rejected for overhaul. After weighing the alternatives, used hub, new hub, etc, I elected to just pony up a couple more AMUs and buy a new zero time scimitar prop. Glad I did.
 
Welcome to this exclusive club.
 
Prop shops are notorious for this behavior. Tell them to give you the prop back and send it to another shop. Don't mention the first visit. Compare. Remember, to a kid with a hammer everything is a nail.

Worst case, go with used. Much better bang for the buck.
 
I have been burnt the same way. After long painful learning experience. Here is what i would suggest.

Ask for written invoice (they will change the verbal quote for sure)... then shop around. Give other shops the list of rejected parts but never the quoted prices. Tell them it is dissembeled already it only needs airworthy parts and assembly.
Be prepared to pay for dissembling/diagnosing to the first shop, if they ask.
When everything is lined up, tell first shop you want to personally see the problems they mentioned.....once they show you all the parts, break the news that you found a refurbished one and will send this one in exchange. And tell them you are there to pick up the prop.

I was surprised when the third shop quoted me half the first quote.

Pm me if you need further help.
 
Hey everyone,

Again, I appreciate your suggestions and well wishes.

I've succumbed to binge eating as a result of this. I'm on my third pack of M&Ms. Don't judge me :)

I genuinely don't think that American prop is lying about the prop being below minimums, but the bottom line/question: is it worthwhile to potentially find the shop who will do the reseal and try and get a few more years out of the prop? If I'm simply risking another leak down the road, then I think it's a worthy sacrifice, no?

I'm not sure whether or not this is relevant, but the grease leak wasn't substantial.... SEE attached! (This is a after 1 1hr flight -- I'd clean it every time to see if the leak would progress and it only slightly did).

If I can find a shop to do the re-seal and get another 2-3 years out of the prop before having to get a new/used one then that would soften the blow... Kindly advise!!

Nathan
 

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I personally am superstitious about constant-speed props (mainly because I am aware of the force they endure, but ignorant of their exact coping mechanisms and engineering) I would not want to fly behind one that had been reported as marginal without having the situation understood in full.

A phone call to Johnson and Sons in Shafter/Bakersfield might be in order. I know they work Los Angeles / Bay Area, it's not a stretch to think they'd work Vegas as well. They were always very reasonable on price and very free with advice. Maybe this is a common thing. Maybe they'll tell you to add some stop-leak to the hub and fly on. :D

Sorry you're faced with this inflection point in plane ownership.
 
File under hidden costs of complex airplanes. A brand new prop for mine is around 3k. No givernor to overhaul either. CS are nice, but not cheap.
 
What are we looking at in the pictures? Speckles on the cowling? That seems like it could just be damaged paint from time.
 
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How old is this prop and how many total hours on it? Has it been overhauled before?
 
I had to pony up for a new prop when mine was sent in for overhaul. Bought a Hartzell scimitar and love it. Shop around, mark ups vary.

Can't stress this enough, have the new prop dynamically balanced on the plane. Probably $250ish and the outcome is fantastic. the engine operates under much less stress and you can feel the difference.

Here's link to a blog entry on how mine was balanced. http://welch.com/n46pg/2019/07/15/prop-balancing/

And the shinny new prop installation: http://welch.com/n46pg/2016/11/04/getting-a-new-prop-spinner/
 
Ask American to quote you the Hartzell scimitar Top prop for the 172RG. The price might be a little better.
 
Nathan N said:
Hello everyone,

I hope you're all doing well!

I got some unfortunate news today and was hoping I could pick some of your brains regarding the issue.

I have a Cessna cutlass 172RG and the prop was spitting out some grease. I took it to our local mechanic shop here in Las Vegas as we don't have a prop shop here and they said the it was a seal and propeller needed to be resealed. They sent it to American Propeller Service in Redding California.

They came back and said the following:
"both blades were found to be rejected the blades are below minimum dimension in sealing area."

The quote they provided is attached. Nearly 10k :(

Can someone please advise? Any light you can shed on this situation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advanced!
Click to expand...
That's pretty typical. props do wear.
 
LT4247 said:
How old is this prop and how many total hours on it? Has it been overhauled before?
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Doesn't really matter now, once the red tag is applied, it's new prop time.
 
have you checked the salvage yards for a used prop ?
 
Our Dakota annual this spring had our prop resulting in out of spec and unserviceable. One blade was useable, but only if someone else has a blade that is close to it in size and weight. So, our choices were: New two blade: $14,000. New Hartzell Top Prop 3 blade scimitar $12,000. We went with the Hartsell.

Then 6 months later our Bonanza McCauley prop developed a prop seal leak. Turns out the prop hub o-ring groove had somehow become elongated and the fix was to machine it down and put some sleeves on it, or replace it. A new hub was going to be around $4k plus around $2.5k labor. The machining/bushing solution was going to come in around $3k.

We chose to replace it with a Hartzell Scimitar prop for a number of reasons - keeping our airplanes the best they can be, within reason, and eliminating: a recurring inspection AD, life limited blades, a restriction on sustained RPM at 2450 (IIRC) with the old prop. New prop was around $13k.

Glad to be in a club with proper reserves!
 
gkainz said:
Our Dakota annual this spring had our prop resulting in out of spec and unserviceable. One blade was useable, but only if someone else has a blade that is close to it in size and weight. So, our choices were: New two blade: $14,000. New Hartzell Top Prop 3 blade scimitar $12,000. We went with the Hartsell.
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How do you like the new Dakota prop? Do you see lower cruise speeds? I have a two-blade on mine and will likely need a new prop in a few years... wondering if the 3-blade is better (aside from looks).
 
On some Continental engines you need to be careful that lightening up the prop side of the engine doesn’t cause potential starter adapter issues and then engine tear down required as a result of breakage (having to do with momentum of rotating mass when/if backfire occurs on start-up).
 
DesertNomad said:
How do you like the new Dakota prop? Do you see lower cruise speeds? I have a two-blade on mine and will likely need a new prop in a few years... wondering if the 3-blade is better (aside from looks).
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I haven't flown the Dakota with the new prop yet but others report very noticeable climb improvement (as expected) and surprisingly no loss in cruise. A few even commented "it might be a few knots faster" ... so, all scientific and stuff, yah know?

It sure looks purty, tho! :)

45650866_10102756437075011_5159663050134913024_o.jpg
 
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Nathan N said:
Hello everyone,

I hope you're all doing well!

I got some unfortunate news today and was hoping I could pick some of your brains regarding the issue.

I have a Cessna cutlass 172RG and the prop was spitting out some grease. I took it to our local mechanic shop here in Las Vegas as we don't have a prop shop here and they said the it was a seal and propeller needed to be resealed. They sent it to American Propeller Service in Redding California.

They came back and said the following:
"both blades were found to be rejected the blades are below minimum dimension in sealing area."

The quote they provided is attached. Nearly 10k :(

Can someone please advise? Any light you can shed on this situation would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advanced!
Click to expand...

There nothing wrong with buying a used prop with a fresh overhaul from a prop shop if you can find one. I would buy a new prop if you plan on keeping the plane 5 years because you could be back in the same position you are now in 5 years with a used prop.
 
A1Topgun said:
For my 2018 annual the prop went for routine overhaul. When the overhaul facility broke it down they found a couple of small pits inside the hub. Hub was rejected for overhaul.
Click to expand...

This is unfortunately all too common. A few years back the FAA instituted a zero-tolerance policy for corrosion in prob hubs. Even in areas of no stress. If the tiniest bit of moisture gets in there and even starts to discolor the metal, your hub is legally toast. Prop shop guy says he has to toss perfectly safe and usable parts all the time for this.

To me any 'zero tolerance' policy means nothing more than a bureaucrat someplace who doesn't want to be held responsible for making decisions, even when the good judgement of an experienced professional could readily be applied.

C.
 
Hey guys,

I appreciate all of the feedback. I went ahead and paid for a new prop.

I was contemplating getting a second decision, but I'd still have to pay for the "7 hours @ $150 an hour" that they had put into it already along with the shipping. However, if I purchased a new prop it would be waived.

I felt a little cornered/forced to get the new prop -- but it is what it is.

Thanks again...
 
steingar said:
Owning airplanes means every so often you have to write big checks. Bend over and take it like a man.
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What is this "every so often" you speak of? o_O:confused:
Makes it sound infrequent...
 
Nathan N said:
I felt a little cornered/forced to get the new prop -- but it is what it is.

Thanks again...
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Yep. Everyone takes a prop in that's doing just fine, and the measurements tell the story.

It's not as if anyone takes one in, knowing in advance that it's going to measure under-spec.

So, almost by definition, the news comes totally unexpected. They need a doc with a white coat and good bedside manner to come visit you first. But instead you just receive a PDF in the email asking for $10k. Maybe a phone call, maybe not.
 
Rgbeard said:
Yep. Everyone takes a prop in that's doing just fine, and the measurements tell the story.

It's not as if anyone takes one in, knowing in advance that it's going to measure under-spec.

So, almost by definition, the news comes totally unexpected. They need a doc with a white coat and good bedside manner to come visit you first. But instead you just receive a PDF in the email asking for $10k. Maybe a phone call, maybe not.
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Exactly. A nice little shtick the prop shops have going for themselves. That's why I do not overhaul props as a matter of principle. On condition and the closest I let a prop shop get to my prop is an eddy current inspection at my hangar and in place (no removal). AD which itself is a load of garbage BS AD, but I endure the hassle in lieu of eating some "top prop" overpriced manufactured obsolensence peddled crap.

So yeah, my prop IS doing just fine, AND I know it wouldn't survive a trip to a prop shop. How u like them apples? That's the hostile little hobby we patronize. Rent seeking abounds. Cannot wait to go exab.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Exactly. A nice little shtick the prop shops have going for themselves. That's why I do not overhaul props as a matter of principle. On condition and the closest I let a prop shop get to my prop is an eddy current inspection at my hangar and in place (no removal). AD which itself is a load of garbage BS AD, but I endure the hassle in lieu of eating some "top prop" overpriced manufactured obsolensence peddled crap.

So yeah, my prop IS doing just fine, AND I know it wouldn't survive a trip to a prop shop. How u like them apples? That's the hostile little hobby we patronize. Rent seeking abounds. Cannot wait to go exab.
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Did I misread that OP had requested a reseal for his prop, not an overhaul?

I would have trouble flying behind those apples, but that's just me. :D
 
Rgbeard said:
So, almost by definition, the news comes totally unexpected. They need a doc with a white coat and good bedside manner to come visit you first. But instead you just receive a PDF in the email asking for $10k. Maybe a phone call, maybe not.
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When we sent our 6000hr twice overhauled prop in for reseal during an engine overhaul, I told my partners to budget for a replacement. I think one screw was reusable, everything else was condemned.
 
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