Semantic Question regarding § 61.113

flyingpreacher

flyingpreacher

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flyingpreacher
So I was thinking about this today because my friend asked about flying to 7N8. If we fly there and he pays for me to golf, that is not a reimbursement of flight expenses directly. I know that the FAA takes a relatively broad view of what it considers “compensation.” If the amount of the round of golf is equal to or less than the pro rata share that I am allowed to receive from him, is it still a violation of this reg, because he is not reimbursing me for flight costs?

(Obviously, the real world says, “His pro rata share is $70ish dollars, so you say, ‘give me $25’ which is then used to cover the greens fee and it’s all good.”)
 
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Goodwill was involved, you’re guilty as charged.
 
The fed who chose to sniff your boxers over this triviality will just find something else to burn you for.

Until you're in that ASI's crosshairs, game on. :)

I would treat it as you describe. "Pro rata was $70, he paid me $25, I paid greens fees, move along Inspector Friendly"
 
You guys caught me. I did indeed mean 61.113, not 91.146. Edited to correct.
 
flyingpreacher said:
So I was thinking about this today because my friend asked about flying to 7N8. If we fly there and he pays for me to golf, that is not a reimbursement of flight expenses directly. I know that the FAA takes a relatively broad view of what it considers “compensation.” If the amount of the round of golf is equal to or less than the pro rata share that I am allowed to receive from him, is it still a violation of this reg, because he is not reimbursing me for flight costs?

(Obviously, the real world says, “His pro rata share is $70ish dollars, so you say, ‘give me $25’ which is then used to cover the greens fee and it’s all good.”)
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Whatever he pays, directly or indirectly, is less than his pro-rate share of expenses. And you both have a common purpose for the flight. Completely legal, enjoy your day of flying and golfing!
 
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“He offered to take my golfing, so I offered to take him flying!” Cool exchange.

Having said all of this and had the discussion, just in case Mr. Fiz Do is on here, said friend is not a golfer and has no desire for this arrangement, so it’s all irrelevant anyway.
 
Let's complicate things. Say you were the one who came up with the idea. You tell everyone you know and post on Facebook that you're looking for passengers to split costs on a golf outing. You're now holding out.
 
WDD said:
Let's complicate things. Say you were the one who came up with the idea. You tell everyone you know and post on Facebook that you're looking for passengers to split costs on a golf outing. You're now holding out.
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Ok, so since you brought that up, I’m not entirely sure I understand holding out.

Let’s say that my buddy and I do something cool. Let’s say we visit Niagara Falls. We split the costs. It’s all good. If I start pitching that to people, I’m holding out. What if he (not at my prompting) starts telling people and now I have 4 more that want to do that sightseeing flight, agreeing to the same cost sharing that I had with my buddy originally. I haven’t changed anything, but has the situation been categorically altered?
 
flyingpreacher said:
Ok, so since you brought that up, I’m not entirely sure I understand holding out.

Let’s say that my buddy and I do something cool. Let’s say we visit Niagara Falls. We split the costs. It’s all good. If I start pitching that to people, I’m holding out. What if he (not at my prompting) starts telling people and now I have 4 more that want to do that sightseeing flight, agreeing to the same cost sharing that I had with my buddy originally. I haven’t changed anything, but has the situation been categorically altered?
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Yes, you are aware he is "holding out" on your behalf. You would need to decline to do those flights.

In keeping with POA tradition, you must now further evolve the scenario so the line of questioning can continue.
 
flyingpreacher said:
So I was thinking about this today because my friend asked about flying to 7N8. If we fly there and he pays for me to golf, that is not a reimbursement of flight expenses directly. I know that the FAA takes a relatively broad view of what it considers “compensation.” If the amount of the round of golf is equal to or less than the pro rata share that I am allowed to receive from him, is it still a violation of this reg, because he is not reimbursing me for flight costs?

(Obviously, the real world says, “His pro rata share is $70ish dollars, so you say, ‘give me $25’ which is then used to cover the greens fee and it’s all good.”)
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Seriously, the FAA has bigger fish to fry than a private pilot who charges his passenger zero for a flight and accepts a gift of a round of golf.
 
I've mentioned this before and I'll keep repeating it: as a PP, you are not required to keep records of flight expenses, passengers carried, or destinations. So don't. And keep your mouth and keyboard quiet about the matter. It's doubtful that the FAA will try to hang you over something like this, but for Pete's sake don't give them the rope.
 
I seem to recall a private building hours who on his own delivered pizzas to his destination for free. I believe the FAA zapped him because he was receiving good will?
 
WDD said:
I seem to recall a private building hours who on his own delivered pizzas to his destination for free. I believe the FAA zapped him because he was receiving good will?
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This one?
media.dominos.com

Pizza by Plane

Pizza by Plane: Domino’s in Port Clinton Takes to the Skies Published: Feb. 19, 2021 Share Tweet Domino’s franchise owner Brian Edler (left) teamed up with Robby Quinn (right), an independent local pilot, to deliver pizzas to residents on Kelleys Island, Ohio by plane on...
media.dominos.com media.dominos.com

Someone with the same name (dad, maybe - I din’t know) was investigated in the same area for a different holding out issue.

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www.toledoblade.com www.toledoblade.com
 
Clip4 said:
Seriously, the FAA has bigger fish to fry than a private pilot who charges his passenger zero for a flight and accepts a gift of a round of golf.
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Then why are there official interpretations of this?
 
Sometimes the bigger problem occurs when there is an accident, particularly with injuries that result in lawsuits. That's when lips sometimes get loosened and sworn testimony becomes factual - then money starts flowing in all directions away from the pilot's bank account.

So if you're looking at a $25 transfer of funds for golf, maybe it's better to avoid that altogether as a form of "insurance" against a potential action by the FAA and/or courts and/or insurance companies. And 25 bucks compared to the total cost of operating an airplane turns out to be a small fraction of the overall costs.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Yes, you are aware he is "holding out" on your behalf. You would need to decline to do those flights.

In keeping with POA tradition, you must now further evolve the scenario so the line of questioning can continue.
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Can you tell I’m studying for the Com oral test?
 
Zeldman said:
''Loose lips sinks ships''

''Don't get diarrhea of the mouth''

"Don't talk about it on a public forum''

''What happens in 'Vegas stays in 'Vegas'' (except for OJ Simpson...)

In other words don't spread it around...
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Always makes me wonder how the FAA find out about all these possible scenarios. Either pilots writing to them to ask if they can do something, or people snitch on pilots.
 
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