selecting a CFI to work with

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Brad W

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I was just reading the recent thread about the youtuber crash, and the discussion about 'worthless' CFI's...SLB's someone called them (self loading baggage)

I've seen it written and heard it said many times over the years, that a student should interview CFI's and pick one that they mesh with. That's something I've pondered a lot but have never really figured out practically speaking how to make that happen....so I'm wondering if any of you have pointers about it. A little bit for me but mostly as an open question to new students.....

So most flight schools I've been to for training, or just for rental checkouts, have many instructors listed on the roster. The school I started a rusty pilot checkout a few months back currently has nine. Now these instructors aren't running regular office hours and it's not like you can go hang out in the school for a couple hours and meet them all. And doing that even half a day on a saturday, might let you see a bunch but not really talk with them as the bounce between students on a busy schedule.

On my recent flight I wasn't overly impressed with the CFI that the scheduler put me with. I had called to schedule a flight, and after a short conversation the scheduler just put me with an instructor. That's the way it has always worked for me, even back when I did my primary training. Take what I got form the scheduler...based generally on availability the day and time that worked best for me for the first flight.

In the case of my recent flight, it was in a Cessna Skycatcher, so the list of available instructors were limited because some of them are bigger guys and either can't or don't want to fly the little thing. That makes the narrowing process a little easier but still, no practical way I see to go interview them all. So this CFI just didn't give me a warm fuzzy. Very much short circuited a preflight, showed a lack of mastery with some of the systems, and blew off stuff that made the plane technically not airworthy (that I didn't spot till during the flight, or I wouldn't have gone). Maybe even more importantly I didn't "gut-feel" that he was all that great at instructing, but I'll cut slack on that since this was our first flight together and he had to evaluate where i was before he could really focus on what to teach.
So anyway, I cancelled my follw-up flights bucked for the following weekend becasue of some family obligations, and i figured it might also give them some time to fix the airplane. One of these days soon I want to get back up, but honestly want to go to a different school.

I do have a little credit left on a block account there, and was thinking about gifting it to my 18 yo son for a couple of introductory lessons....BUT I really want to be smart about putting him with the best instructor possible!

I suppose the most obvious method would be to take what you get...and if you don't like it, schedule with another one for the next flight....and just keep working the list till you fly wit them all.... but that's not very efficient...and depending on the roster could get you 10 hours or more in before figuring it out!

So, any pointers?
 
You mentioned checkouts. A checkout, particularly in an airplane you already know, is a very short term commitment. I may have some kind of record for getting checked out, but I never worried much about who the CFI was. And really, I have not come across many bad ones.

For longer term commitments - acquisition of a certificate or rating - and especially for new students with no experience, I think interviewing the CFI is a nice aspiration but not one likely to (a) happen or (b) make a big difference. Someone can be the nicest, friendliest guy on the ground, but a complete jerk as a CFI. You won't know it without a lesson. You might catch hints earlier, or it might take a few lessons to realize this instructor is not for you.

I think the best one can do is have some basic questions. Not nebulous things like "what's your teaching style," but specifics like,
what's the typical length of a lesson and how much is in flight as opposed to pre and post flight briefings?​
do you use a syllabus? Can I have a copy?​
are you available after hours if I have questions or should I schedule ground with you?​

Responses will give answers to legitimate concerns but they can also give insight to style. And if you keep them in mind those first few lessons, it won't take much time to find out whether the answers were realistic.
 
When I was looking, I had talked to an independent cfi who was too busy at the time but said when his schedule lightens up he likes to have dinner or lunch with a would be student. He understood different personalities may or may not mesh. Student feels out the cfi and vice versa. I ultimately never made that call but I liked that concept.
 
I think you need to fly with them to know. Interviewing won't do much good. I've had six instructors so far. Three were very good and I stuck with them for a long time, getting ratings with. One was good for quick insurance check-outs but not more than that. Not because his teaching sucked, but more so because his availability was non-existent. The other two I had one lesson with each and felt it was a waste of time and money so never again booked with them. Curiously enough, both of the instructors who fell into that category were young ones at larger flight schools just collecting hours to go to the airlines.
 
Brad W said:
I was just reading the recent thread about the youtuber crash, and the discussion about 'worthless' CFI's...SLB's someone called them (self loading baggage)

I've seen it written and heard it said many times over the years, that a student should interview CFI's and pick one that they mesh with. That's something I've pondered a lot but have never really figured out practically speaking how to make that happen....so I'm wondering if any of you have pointers about it. A little bit for me but mostly as an open question to new students.....

So most flight schools I've been to for training, or just for rental checkouts, have many instructors listed on the roster. The school I started a rusty pilot checkout a few months back currently has nine. Now these instructors aren't running regular office hours and it's not like you can go hang out in the school for a couple hours and meet them all. And doing that even half a day on a saturday, might let you see a bunch but not really talk with them as the bounce between students on a busy schedule.

On my recent flight I wasn't overly impressed with the CFI that the scheduler put me with. I had called to schedule a flight, and after a short conversation the scheduler just put me with an instructor. That's the way it has always worked for me, even back when I did my primary training. Take what I got form the scheduler...based generally on availability the day and time that worked best for me for the first flight.

In the case of my recent flight, it was in a Cessna Skycatcher, so the list of available instructors were limited because some of them are bigger guys and either can't or don't want to fly the little thing. That makes the narrowing process a little easier but still, no practical way I see to go interview them all. So this CFI just didn't give me a warm fuzzy. Very much short circuited a preflight, showed a lack of mastery with some of the systems, and blew off stuff that made the plane technically not airworthy (that I didn't spot till during the flight, or I wouldn't have gone). Maybe even more importantly I didn't "gut-feel" that he was all that great at instructing, but I'll cut slack on that since this was our first flight together and he had to evaluate where i was before he could really focus on what to teach.
So anyway, I cancelled my follw-up flights bucked for the following weekend becasue of some family obligations, and i figured it might also give them some time to fix the airplane. One of these days soon I want to get back up, but honestly want to go to a different school.

I do have a little credit left on a block account there, and was thinking about gifting it to my 18 yo son for a couple of introductory lessons....BUT I really want to be smart about putting him with the best instructor possible!

I suppose the most obvious method would be to take what you get...and if you don't like it, schedule with another one for the next flight....and just keep working the list till you fly wit them all.... but that's not very efficient...and depending on the roster could get you 10 hours or more in before figuring it out!

So, any pointers?
Click to expand...
My process, developed as of summer of this year is:
1) Call the flight school and ask for a lesson with the most experienced instructor they have
2) If I show up and that turns out to be a 22 year old kid, find a new flight school

The number one thing I'm looking for when getting instruction is experience. And I want their flying knowledge to be grounded in actual experience not just memorizing PHAK or the ACS to pass an exam. In my experience the single best predictor there is age.

Other than that I don't need to be friends with my CFI or interview them in a traditional sense. I need to do 1 flight with them and figure out if they actually know how to give instruction and focus on stuff that matters.

If that one flight sucks (as it did when I flew this summer with a guy who fixated on minutiae at the expense of the larger point of the lesson -- DA training) then I thank them for their time, pay 'em, and go search for a new instructor.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have learned things from 22 year old CFIs.
Click to expand...
This probably comes down to personal experience...
Personally I have obtained little valuable knowledge from the younger cut of CFIs (n=6) and I would not have wanted them to be my CFI/CFII.

Then again, I'm betting you have substantially more experience than me - so maybe I'll consider lightening up on my bias against the young instructors :).
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
My process, developed as of summer of this year is:
1) Call the flight school and ask for a lesson with the most experienced instructor they have
2) If I show up and that turns out to be a 22 year old kid, find a new flight school

The number one thing I'm looking for when getting instruction is experience. And I want their flying knowledge to be grounded in actual experience not just memorizing PHAK or the ACS to pass an exam. In my experience the single best predictor there is age.

Other than that I don't need to be friends with my CFI or interview them in a traditional sense. I need to do 1 flight with them and figure out if they actually know how to give instruction and focus on stuff that matters.

If that one flight sucks (as it did when I flew this summer with a guy who fixated on minutiae at the expense of the larger point of the lesson -- DA training) then I thank them for their time, pay 'em, and go search for a new instructor.
Click to expand...
Everyone want the most experienced or the best, we have you down for Monday May 6th at 8am.
 
Other than personality and other quirks, what possible basis does a flight student use to even interview a CFI?
 
I have flown with forty two flight instructors and would likely recommend only four to a friend.

I felt unsafe with a few and shortened the flight, two of them are now dead.

They also need to be a good match for the learner.

If they hurry preflight, minimize problems with the aircraft or don’t use check lists I would look elsewhere for instruction.

Ask some questions about something in aviation that doesn’t make sense to you and see how they answer your questions.

I have people regularly call me and I am happy to spend time with them answering questions and don’t charge for phone calls.

I am a much better now than I was in the beginning as a flight instructor.

I am better now at recognizing weaknesses and getting to the cause of mistakes.

I am better able to recognize when someone is pretending to know something they don’t.
 
Teaching ability, planning, knowledge, judgment, skill, experience, attitude. Hard to tell without actually flying with them, and sometimes it takes more than once.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
This probably comes down to personal experience...
Personally I have obtained little valuable knowledge from the younger cut of CFIs (n=6) and I would not have wanted them to be my CFI/CFII.

Then again, I'm betting you have substantially more experience than me - so maybe I'll consider lightening up on my bias against the young instructors :).
Click to expand...
The other part to me is, as a new student, while there’s certainly a downside to changing instructors due to airline hiring, most young CFIs I deal with really want to do a good job. Desire and ability to teach can often overcome lack of significant experience. I think it was Rod Machado who once said that a brand new CFI has gone through 4 checkrides. If the best they can do is get you to fly as well as them, you are way ahead of the game.
 
My first two CFIs I stuck with for more than one lesson were older, career CFIs. Never flew the airlines, all they did was instructing and other aviation related things outside of flying. The third instructor I stuck with throughout several ratings was my age (early/mid 30s), definitely collecting hours for the airlines (where he is now) but still super competent and probably my favorite CFI to date.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The other part to me is, as a new student, while there’s certainly a downside to changing instructors due to airline hiring, most young CFIs I deal with really want to do a good job. Desire and ability to teach can often overcome lack of significant experience. I think it was Rod Machado who once said that a brand new CFI has gone through 4 checkrides. If the best they can do is get you to fly as well as them, you are way ahead of the game.
Click to expand...
I agree, but passing a checkride and learning to be a good long-term aviator, able to make good choices under pressure, aren't necessarily synonymous.
 
My primary flight school hired a CFI that needed a seat belt extender. Nobody would fly with him!

-Skip
 
I've never done an interview either as a student or a CFI. Selecting a CFI has been one or more of the following:

1. Take what you get because it is all that is available. Small towns may only have one option.
2. Trial and error. Sometimes you click, sometimes you don't.
3. Talk to other pilots. Best way to find out who is known as good instructor and who isn't.
 
Skip Miller said:
My primary flight school hired a CFI that needed a seat belt extender. Nobody would fly with him!

-Skip
Click to expand...
Depending on the aircraft being used, weight and balance can become an issue.

Happened to me when I went to college flight training. We should have been in the 152, but between my instructor and I that put us over the limit and I had to pop for the 172s.
 
I don't know enough to interview someone about their knowledge, and it's difficult to determine if someone can teach until you see them teach. I will probably just find a CFI who is experienced and not building time to move on. One with a lot of experience, the ability to pass it on, and a willingness to correct me directly without worrying about my feelings when I mess up would suit me just fine.
 
I guess I am the guy most of you want. Too old for the airlines, more than 50 years of flying experience, more than 3,500 hours as an instructor, many happy former students who come back to me for flight reviews, Wright Brothers Master Pilot award.... ouch, my arm hurts from patting myself on the back.

But I do know what you all are talking about. There are four full time CFIs where I work part time. They are all in their 20s. They are smart and good teachers and dedicated. They work best with students close to their age, but occasionally I get someone who starts with them and then wants to fly with me because I am older and more experienced. We have no issues with students asking to change instructors.

A new student will almost always be assigned whoever is readily available for the intro ride, and if they like that CFI, they usually stay with that one.
I get some referrals from my former students, which is gratifying. When I was an independent CFI, I did have some prospective students interview me and decide whether to go with me or the local flight school. I always tell new students, "I work for you. You can fire me anytime if you are not happy with my work."
 
midlifeflyer said:
You mentioned checkouts. A checkout, particularly in an airplane you already know, is a very short term commitment. I may have some kind of record for getting checked out, but I never worried much about who the CFI was. And really, I have not come across many bad ones.
.........
Click to expand...
granted, in the pure sense....but in my experience most rental checkouts have also included some level of rust removal, BFR, instrument recurrency, etc...

ArrowFlyer86 said:
My process, developed as of summer of this year is:
1) Call the flight school and ask for a lesson with the most experienced instructor they have
2) If I show up and that turns out to be a 22 year old kid, find a new flight school

The number one thing I'm looking for when getting instruction is experience. And I want their flying knowledge to be grounded in actual experience not just memorizing PHAK or the ACS to pass an exam. In my experience the single best predictor there is age.

Other than that I don't need to be friends with my CFI or interview them in a traditional sense. I need to do 1 flight with them and figure out if they actually know how to give instruction and focus on stuff that matters.

If that one flight sucks (as it did when I flew this summer with a guy who fixated on minutiae at the expense of the larger point of the lesson -- DA training) then I thank them for their time, pay 'em, and go search for a new instructor.
Click to expand...
+
Gilbert Buettner said:
I guess I am the guy most of you want. Too old for the airlines, more than 50 years of flying experience, more than 3,500 hours as an instructor, many happy former students who come back to me for flight reviews, Wright Brothers Master Pilot award.... ouch, my arm hurts from patting myself on the back.
.....
Click to expand...
yep, not all about age...in fact it's hardly about age I think. It's more about attitude than anything, then after that there's the more nuanced abelites, style/personality, etc...
but age can be a clue.....age brings experience (usually) and experience usually brings other good things
and Gilbert, I think you're right in my case. Many years ago I decided to always try to find the more experienced (not necessarily old) CFII's for instrument work. What I always felt my biggest weakness, no matter how rusty my skills might have been, was with was in the real world decision making and I find that most newly minted CFII's are afraid of going up in the clouds unless it's perfect VFR under...and everything regarding the weather is perfect.
 
Brad W said:
I was just reading the recent thread about the youtuber crash, and the discussion about 'worthless' CFI's...SLB's someone called them (self loading baggage)

I've seen it written and heard it said many times over the years, that a student should interview CFI's and pick one that they mesh with. That's something I've pondered a lot but have never really figured out practically speaking how to make that happen....so I'm wondering if any of you have pointers about it. A little bit for me but mostly as an open question to new students.....

So most flight schools I've been to for training, or just for rental checkouts, have many instructors listed on the roster. The school I started a rusty pilot checkout a few months back currently has nine. Now these instructors aren't running regular office hours and it's not like you can go hang out in the school for a couple hours and meet them all. And doing that even half a day on a saturday, might let you see a bunch but not really talk with them as the bounce between students on a busy schedule.

On my recent flight I wasn't overly impressed with the CFI that the scheduler put me with. I had called to schedule a flight, and after a short conversation the scheduler just put me with an instructor. That's the way it has always worked for me, even back when I did my primary training. Take what I got form the scheduler...based generally on availability the day and time that worked best for me for the first flight.

In the case of my recent flight, it was in a Cessna Skycatcher, so the list of available instructors were limited because some of them are bigger guys and either can't or don't want to fly the little thing. That makes the narrowing process a little easier but still, no practical way I see to go interview them all. So this CFI just didn't give me a warm fuzzy. Very much short circuited a preflight, showed a lack of mastery with some of the systems, and blew off stuff that made the plane technically not airworthy (that I didn't spot till during the flight, or I wouldn't have gone). Maybe even more importantly I didn't "gut-feel" that he was all that great at instructing, but I'll cut slack on that since this was our first flight together and he had to evaluate where i was before he could really focus on what to teach.
So anyway, I cancelled my follw-up flights bucked for the following weekend becasue of some family obligations, and i figured it might also give them some time to fix the airplane. One of these days soon I want to get back up, but honestly want to go to a different school.

I do have a little credit left on a block account there, and was thinking about gifting it to my 18 yo son for a couple of introductory lessons....BUT I really want to be smart about putting him with the best instructor possible!

I suppose the most obvious method would be to take what you get...and if you don't like it, schedule with another one for the next flight....and just keep working the list till you fly wit them all.... but that's not very efficient...and depending on the roster could get you 10 hours or more in before figuring it out!

So, any pointers?
Click to expand...

1. Get your CFI/CFII
2. If you can't get what you want, take what is available. Cue music
3. I've learned something from everyone I've flown with.

 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I guess I am the guy most of you want. Too old for the airlines, more than 50 years of flying experience, more than 3,500 hours as an instructor, many happy former students who come back to me for flight reviews, Wright Brothers Master Pilot award.... ouch, my arm hurts from patting myself on the back.

But I do know what you all are talking about. There are four full time CFIs where I work part time. They are all in their 20s. They are smart and good teachers and dedicated. They work best with students close to their age, but occasionally I get someone who starts with them and then wants to fly with me because I am older and more experienced. We have no issues with students asking to change instructors.

A new student will almost always be assigned whoever is readily available for the intro ride, and if they like that CFI, they usually stay with that one.
I get some referrals from my former students, which is gratifying. When I was an independent CFI, I did have some prospective students interview me and decide whether to go with me or the local flight school. I always tell new students, "I work for you. You can fire me anytime if you are not happy with my work."
Click to expand...
Your experience is similar to mine, I only have about 35 year experience, but over 5000 hrs as an instructor.
The FBO I teach for is also similar, If you want to fly 5 or more days a week and get done quickly, I am not the guy you want. I only do 2 or 3 lessons per student per week typically and only actively teach 3 or 4 students at a time.
I have only done a few short stints as a full time instructor, otherwise it has always be a part time gig.
So if you want to get done quickly I will refer you to one of our other instructors that is doing it full time and trying to build hours. We also have no issue with students flying with different instructors, I only recommend if a student does this they the designate a primary instructor to direct their training, ie. advise the student/other instructors what the student needs to work on.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
For myself, my question is, do I need a line filled in, or want to learn something? If the only time you fly with someone better than you, that you can learn from, is to fill in a line, you might not live long enough to learn what you should know.
 
My first instructor for CFI had something like 5000 instructional hours, but he had a singular teaching style and he was very vocal about learning to his teaching style. My second CFI instructor was a former military pilot and treated everyone like he was still in the military. One short flight was all I needed. My third CFI instructor was a retired teacher and had a very unique capability to adjust his teaching style to match my learning ability. He was the person I tried to match my teaching style to. He was also a aerobatic instructor. Ever spin a 172 from the right seat while under the hood.??
 
midlifeflyer said:
Paying money for a service.
Click to expand...
Really? Did you interview your college professors before enrolling? How about the cooks at the restaurant before you ordered your meal? The mechanic who worked on your car?

Normally people who are interviewed are answering a job posting. CFIs working as employees for a flight school are no different. You are not entitled to interview them nor are they obligated to allow you to interview them.

If you get to interview me as a CFI it’s because you are hiring me as a contractor and we are going to discuss compensation and several other topics to determine you qualify.
 
Clip4 said:
You are not entitled to interview them nor are they obligated to allow you to interview them.
Click to expand...

Nor am I obligated to hire that flight school if they don’t allow it. In fact, such a prohibition would be an excellent reason to go elsewhere.

Any flight school around here knows there are a dozen or so schools in the region, not to mention all the independent CFIs. Competition makes them all quite accommodating with prospective students. A school or CFI with an attitude such as you suggest won’t last very long.
 
I live in a smaller city and there is only one CFI to choose from within 150 miles. I just made it work.
 
Same here, live in a smaller city. There are 3 schools that I know of to choose from. 2 have time builder CFI's. Went for a first flight with one TB school. CFI about 20, has yet to graduate a single student, not impressed. Haven't started flight training yet just ground school. All I know at this point is don't want to die while the CFI is on a cell phone. I am serious not joking. Recently seems to be too many "qualified" instructors who have killed students who didn't know better or anything. Have talked to one independent instructor who I hope is available.
 
squincher said:
I don't know enough to interview someone about their knowledge, and it's difficult to determine if someone can teach until you see them teach. I will probably just find a CFI who is experienced and not building time to move on. One with a lot of experience, the ability to pass it on, and a willingness to correct me directly without worrying about my feelings when I mess up would suit me just fine.
Click to expand...
That's a pretty darn good approach.

I just look for someone I like, or at least don't dislike. Flying is fun. I'm too old to strap myself in a box with someone I don't enjoy hanging out with.

Best way to find is referrals from people I trust.
 
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