Seeking advice for son

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Tim Huff

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TimHuff
I will apologize in advance if this has been covered countless times in the past, but I am needing some advice.

My son in 16 and has wanted to be a commercial airline pilot for several years and is currently in the process of getting his private pilot license now. When I spoke to gentleman at our local training facility, he shared that there are two types of school available to become a commercial pilot, Part 61 and Part 141. I am wanting to know what advice you can share about which training would be best for him in the long term and over the course of his career. Should he take the Part 61 and complete the training sooner, or consider a Part 141 and earn a college degree in becoming a commercial airline pilot.

This is something that we believe will be his life long career and do not want him to be passed over for advancement due to lack of a degree.

Thanks in advance,
Tim Huff
 
The two approaches are not the only way. Yes, you train either 141 or 61, you can get a college degree either way. Not all 141 include a dgree. The 141 offering a degree is usually an aviation-related degree. A growing opinion is get a degree or at least a minor, in something other than aviation as a backup.

Where are you located?
 
The way I did it was an Agribusiness degree from TAMU, followed by 16 years in sales, then 2 years of flight training part 61, a year working as a CFI, a year as a Citation co-pilot, then captain.

61/141 won’t really matter in the long run. I’d go with what ever is available locally. He is going to have to realize that he is the only one responsible for his learning. He needs to study, plan, and set goals. Don’t rely on the instructors to handle everything.
 
Part 141 is a more structured program. That can be good, or bad, depending on the student and their goals.

Many look for a 141 program because it is required for their scholarships, financing, or degree program.

The structure of a 141 can be either a benefit or a disadvantage, depending on the student and his goals.

A good CFI, in a part 61 program, has more latitude to adapt to the student's learning style and rate of progression and can use that flexibility to help a student succeed who may have struggled in a more structured program. The student is the customer and the (good) CFI is adapting to the customer-student's needs.

The structure in a 141 program, particularly in the university-type programs, will not adapt to the student. The student has to adapt to the program's structure. This can actually be a positive for students who are on a profession pilot or military tract. It teaches them how to succeed in an employer's training program which requires the student to succeed in their program.
 
Just a few thoughts from a PP-ASEL rated pilot, now ground-bound due to health issues.

The difference between 61 and 141 is minor. 141 has some edge because they teach procedures that are congruent with airline practices... but there are loads of 61-trained airline pilots.

Get a college degree that will allow a career outside of aviation. The number of downsizings that occur too frequently as the economy fluctuates means that a pilot with non-aviation skills may be ahead of the game. Most majors require a college degree, but not necessarily in an aviation related field.

Take the route that will incur the least debt. Poorly paid regional airline pilots (a likely step taken by airline pilots on the way up the ladder to the majors) can struggle under this debt load.

Get a First Class Medical right away. Too many aspiring airline pilots have their career path upset by what the FAA perceives to be a medical problem. Find out before you spend a load of money on training. Recreational Drug Use is a big problem for many.

It is advisable to get a consultation with your AME (FAA doc who gives the medical exam) before asking for the medical exam. In other words, see if you pass before a live exam. Browse through the Medical Matters on this forum for more information on this.

Thank you for supporting your pilot-to-be!

-Skip
 
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murphey said:
The two approaches are not the only way. Yes, you train either 141 or 61, you can get a college degree either way. Not all 141 include a dgree. The 141 offering a degree is usually an aviation-related degree. A growing opinion is get a degree or at least a minor, in something other than aviation as a backup.

Where are you located?
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Ashland, KY and we have been in contact with Hanger 9 aviation in our area. Spoke with a guy named Joe that provided us with some great information.
 
Not only recreational drug use, but ADHD diagnosis and treatment can cause future certification issues. Lot's of simply rambunctious boys have been saddled with that millstone. If ADHD had been in vogue in my childhood, I might have been so branded.
(I do understand there are valid diagnoses.)
 
Another thing, the big 141 flight colleges like Embry-Riddle, etc., offer degrees like "aeronautical science" or whatever, which basically have no value except to check the "college degree" box on an employment application. Much better to get a degree in something useful he enjoys in case he can't fly someday... remember a pro pilot is only one medical away from a ground job.

Me, I started at a 141 college but majored in aerospace engineering instead of their "aeronautical administration with professional pilot option" degree program. After getting my Private during my freshman year I realized that I had no desire to fly for a living so I went no further with their flight program, but I've enjoyed my 40+ years of an engineering career, flying only where and when I want to.
 
:yeahthat:


And it's not just losing a medical that can derail a pilot career. Swings in the economy, or something like COVID, can result in airlines releasing pilots. Or a family situation can make a flying career undesirable.

It would be wise to get a degree in something marketable on its own. Business and STEM degrees will open doors and find jobs if a flying career is put on hold temporarily or permanently.

A good pilot always has alternatives.
 
Yea back in 2020 pilots would have killed to get a job flying rubber dog sheet from Hong Kong. Now all the FOs think the world is their oyster.
 
He should get the private while in H.S., graduate, then go to a 141 school/University, yes, $$ is involved.

He could entertain ROTC options, maybe even enlist in a flying unit with hopes of a Reserve pilot slot later. Of course that option isn’t for everyone.

Tell him to mind the peripherals, driving record, DUIs, head meds, etc..

I mentored a young lad not long ago, I told him at least twice, self-motivation was very important. One can’t expect to sit back until someone hands them a piloting career.
 
Dana said:
Another thing, the big 141 flight colleges like Embry-Riddle, etc., offer degrees like "aeronautical science" or whatever, which basically have no value except to check the "college degree" box on an employment application. Much better to get a degree in something useful he enjoys in case he can't fly someday... remember a pro pilot is only one medical away from a ground job.

Me, I started at a 141 college but majored in aerospace engineering instead of their "aeronautical administration with professional pilot option" degree program. After getting my Private during my freshman year I realized that I had no desire to fly for a living so I went no further with their flight program, but I've enjoyed my 40+ years of an engineering career, flying only where and when I want to.
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+1 for AE, but only if son can see that as a viable or desirable backup career. Otherwise it would be fruitless. There are many paths, including military, which comes with a good amount of flying experience and tuition assistance as well. As others have mentioned, everything depends on the young lad's motivation.
 
This has been said a couple of times in a couple of ways, but it can't be said enough:

Impress on your son that "youthful indiscretions", especially DUI or illicit drug use, or even legal drug use for certain conditions can kick his ass out of the pilots seat, even before his sits in one. Perhaps you could get him to read the medical topics forum here. If he really wants to be a pilot, you would be doing him, and yourself a huge favor! To me, it is unbelievable how many pleas for help start with "A few years ago I did something stupid. Now I am afraid I am going to lose my career which means everything in the world to me".
 
There is no single answer on which avenue is best. When a student goes to a college based 141 degree program, the bureaucracy is rather high. The student one way or another is paying the salary for the department chair, assistant chair, the flight school chief instructor and assistant instructors. The student has 1-2 semesters to complete each certificate. The good thing is there is a set schedule the same time and days of the week with full time instructors for flight training. The bad thing is there are penaltie$ for the student who misses training.

Generally the first level of bureaucracy is removed at a simple 141 school and a chief and assistants are still in play. Scheduling may not be as assured.

Part 61 has the lowest level of bureaucracy and most times is part time instructors.

Personally, I would run from all the college based programs. Have your son get a 4 year science degree and do the pilot thing separate. With a science degree he can go any where he wants in life if a medical condition knocks him out of the cockpit. + he can always go airforce and let uncle sugar pay for the pilot training.
 
great advice from everyone and I really appreciate your input!
 
Here’s some advice that’s counter-intuitive. Find out how much 250hrs of renting an airplane will cost. Double it and that should about cover all the training and general pilot stuff cost it’ll take for your kid to get all the tickets to fly as a commercial pilot.

Put that chunk of money in a five or ten year CD. If he can pass a physical and is still interested then, let him decide which path to go down and there’s money set aside to make it happen. Then, send him to work at the local flight school helping the mechanic out or whatever other airport job there is and open opportunities to connect with pilots and do curiosity-based learning.

Kids, especially boys, do a whole lot of growing up between 18 and 25.
 
Dana said:
Another thing, the big 141 flight colleges like Embry-Riddle, etc., offer degrees like "aeronautical science" or whatever, which basically have no value except to check the "college degree" box on an employment application. Much better to get a degree in something useful he enjoys in case he can't fly someday... remember a pro pilot is only one medical away from a ground job.

Me, I started at a 141 college but majored in aerospace engineering instead of their "aeronautical administration with professional pilot option" degree program. After getting my Private during my freshman year I realized that I had no desire to fly for a living so I went no further with their flight program, but I've enjoyed my 40+ years of an engineering career, flying only where and when I want to.
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My son is also 16 and in the same place. The only caveat, the aviation degrees are the ones that allow for the R-ATP that gives him an ATP in 1000 hours. You also must get the comm and instrument ratings in the program, not before.
 
jbarrass said:
My son is also 16 and in the same place. The only caveat, the aviation degrees are the ones that allow for the R-ATP that gives him an ATP in 1000 hours. You also must get the comm and instrument ratings in the program, not before.
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It's not the degree, but completing the 141 program. Though I suppose a college could include the degree as part of their 141 program requirements, but I don't think there is any FAA requirement.
 
R-ATP at 1000 hours requires an Aviation Bachelors Degree with 60 aviation credits. With an Aviation Associate Degree or Bachelors with 30 aviation credits, it is 1250 hours.

Both require Part 141 school.
 
jbarrass said:
My son is also 16 and in the same place. The only caveat, the aviation degrees are the ones that allow for the R-ATP that gives him an ATP in 1000 hours. You also must get the comm and instrument ratings in the program, not before.
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There's a lot of value in qualifying for the R-ATP earlier. Seniority is everything.

A lot of people say to get a degree in something else. My degree is a BS in Aeronautical Science and I've found my degree very useful throughout my career. Classes included physics, aircraft systems, turbine engines, reciprocating engines, aviation weather, history and regulation of aviation, air safety, air crash investigation, aerodynamics, aircraft performance, avionics, and more. That background put me ahead of my classmates in every airline ground school I've attended. They've helped me understand the aircraft I've operated and the reasons behind the procedures the airlines use.

The problem with getting a different degree as a fallback is that, some years down the road, when you try to switch careers your education is out of date and, at best, you're only qualified for entry-level jobs in that field. You aren't going to be able to walk into the alternate career path anywhere near the place a person would hold at your age if they'd been in the field since college. You're still starting over.

Above all, my advice is to stay out of debt. The biggest name schools are very expensive. Find a qualifying aviation program that you, and/or your family, can afford without debt.
 
Larry in TN said:
…Above all, my advice is to stay out of debt. The biggest name schools are very expensive. Find a qualifying aviation program that you, and/or your family, can afford without debt.
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x2
 
screw the 4 year aviation degree regardless of the 500 hours it may save for an ATP certificate. get a degree from an online program using your FAA certs for credit while building time, plenty of colleges give you 20-26 units for FAA Certs. You won't get the restricted lower ATP hour benefits but you will have far more hours than someone graduating after 4 years degree.

As far as part 61 vs 141 ... most 141 programs mostly use the cert to allow foreign students to get visas and others to get financial aid......getting college credits for part 61 training is not a factor. however, some colleges with aviation programs may require you take some form of a checkride before awarding credits and charge you for it which could cost thousands of challenging multiple ratings...ERAU did this... tell em to get lost and find another program. Airlines dropped degree requirement and don't care what major is if you have one.

part 141 instrument allows less flight time to get and saves $ compared to part 61.....but avoid part 141 for commercial as syllabus is about 130 hours wherein part 61 may require more time (190 vs 250 hr) but you can use this time for other training such as CFI and multi training allowing you to be ready for CFI and MEI as soon as you get commercial cert.

find other ways to meet hour req, such as 50 hours of simulator is allowed to meet 250 hr requirements.... I'm paying $30/hr for a sim my daughter is using....she gets good training for a lot less $ than renting plane. also check for a local glider club... you can use this time to meet com and ATP requirements as well at fraction of cost.

I dropped out of a 4-year university my first year after realizing this. by the time my buddies graduated with their four-year degree and 250 hours, I was a captain at an airline and had a lot less in debt.
 
My son is 18 and is now currently flying full time. If you are self motivated, part 61 is much less expensive and faster. My son soloed at 16, got his private and instrument at 17. Soon as he turned 18 he did his commercial, multi, CFI and CFII along with a CE-500 and CE-560XL SIC type rating. Lots of work? Yes. But by the time he turns 21 and eligible for an ATP he should have nearly 3000 hours. He now works full time flight instructing and working as an SIC on a variety of citations and king air's. At the same time he is getting his 4-year bachelors in Business Finance on line. No need for an aviation related degree and gives him a backup plan in the event of a medical issue or economic downturn.

If the kids are willing to work hard and build relationships the aviation future is very bright!
 
SethV said:
My son is 18 and is now currently flying full time. If you are self motivated, part 61 is much less expensive and faster. My son soloed at 16, got his private and instrument at 17. Soon as he turned 18 he did his commercial, multi, CFI and CFII along with a CE-500 and CE-560XL SIC type rating. Lots of work? Yes. But by the time he turns 21 and eligible for an ATP he should have nearly 3000 hours. He now works full time flight instructing and working as an SIC on a variety of citations and king air's. At the same time he is getting his 4-year bachelors in Business Finance on line. No need for an aviation related degree and gives him a backup plan in the event of a medical issue or economic downturn.

If the kids are willing to work hard and build relationships the aviation future is very bright!
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Kids like your son have restored my faith in his generation. Need more like him. Bravo dad!
 
SethV said:
My son is 18 and is now currently flying full time. If you are self motivated, part 61 is much less expensive and faster. My son soloed at 16, got his private and instrument at 17. Soon as he turned 18 he did his commercial, multi, CFI and CFII along with a CE-500 and CE-560XL SIC type rating. Lots of work? Yes. But by the time he turns 21 and eligible for an ATP he should have nearly 3000 hours. He now works full time flight instructing and working as an SIC on a variety of citations and king air's. At the same time he is getting his 4-year bachelors in Business Finance on line. No need for an aviation related degree and gives him a backup plan in the event of a medical issue or economic downturn.

If the kids are willing to work hard and build relationships the aviation future is very bright!
Click to expand...


Bravo! Sounds like an ambitious young man.
 
I remember as a kid having all of these goals, not knowing what I know now, my goals are completely different. A degree is pretty essential and a good learning experience, both in academics and socially, so I would aim towards a 4 year bachelors degree at a good size university where you live on campus. You cannot replicate this anywhere else.

Then I would go for part 61, buy a small old airplane that has been well maintained, and allow him to get hours that way. Getting your PPL is quick, I think I spent 2 months, after that it is about logging hours and experience. You can save money having your own airplane.

Like another poster said, go for your first class medical to ensure he fully qualifies, get an EKG check done too, so you’ll know his health and medical record allows him the opportunity to fly professionally later on.
 
If your son is motivated and you are considering buying a plane, I would suggest looking for an IFR rated experimental aircraft with a motor capable of burning car gas. There are plenty of good and well built kit planes for sale. I put an automotive engine on a Cessna and my daughter did her training and Private pilot checkride in it…. Her PP cert cost including 60 hours flight time (engine reserves and fuel), about 40 dual CFI cost, and check ride examiner fee was less than $4000 total. Renting a beat up c172 would have cost over $12K….. she’s now working on her IFR and then commercial, CFI.

Experimental is also is a cheap way to build time, so the savings are significant. A guy on my field bought a small experimental and teaching his kid to fly in it. However, it’s not IFR so he is installing a certified GPS that connects to his flat panel that will allow IFR flight and training.

EXP aircraft are a great way to really get into flying, as well. Some of the experimental forums have a lot of good info on the subject if considering it.
 
And be prepared for much higher insurance costs or even not available insurance for experimentals
 
Anthem said:
And be prepared for much higher insurance costs or even not available insurance for experimentals
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Insurance for most experimentals isn't a problem. Where people run into trouble is with uncommon types, or high performance types not commensurate with the pilot's experience.
 
Dana said:
Insurance for most experimentals isn't a problem. Where people run into trouble is with uncommon types, or high performance types not commensurate with the pilot's experience.
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the irony is that the cost per hull value for insuring a van RV is higher than insuring the same hull value Cessna 172. And it’s all because it’s an experimental.
 
Anthem said:
the irony is that the cost per hull value for insuring a van RV is higher than insuring the same hull value Cessna 172. And it’s all because it’s an experimental.
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Not just because it's experimental. A large percentage of RVs are taildraggers, they're considerably faster than a 172, and have much "sportier" handling. All these things increase the loss rate. And yes, it's much easier to repair a 172 with salvage parts than an RV.
 
have not found that to be a problem so far.
 
I got a 140 semester unit bachelors in a brick and mortar school in a year and a summer. I counsel students on how to get an accelerated degree with 4.0 CPA’s. I was also working full time as I did it.

I just flew a certified airplane from California to Texas that I purchased for $13k. She’s not pretty, but those cylinders installed 40 hours ago will last a while, and at 5 gallons per hour a student can kick out hours, albeit slow, pretty inexpensively.

As kind as some people are in paying other people’s aircraft notes or leasebacks, I am not one of those people. If a kid is resourceful he can learn to owner-assist install some IFR radios in an otherwise vfr plane and put in some IFR time.

Spending your parent’s money ti chase an aviation dream shouldn’t come without exerting some elbow grease or otherwise perfect grades.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Regardless of the student, a top-notch instructor will give much higher quality instruction under Part 61 than under Part 141. A really crappy instructor will do better under Part 141. Part 61 allows the instructor to customize the training to best fit the student's learning style and needs. Part 141 is a one-sized-fits-all no-child-left-behind structured style of shove-it-down-your-throat learning. That structure is a hinderance to a quality instructor, but is a necessary "bowling safety bumper" in the big pilot mills where the instructors have no idea how to actually teach.
 
My son is currently working as a CFI at a schools that works with a local college with an aviation program. He is teaching primary 141 but does some 61. Had he expressed interest at 16 to become an airline pilot I would have without question, sent him to a university with a four year aviation program.
The pros and cons expressed about the quality and cost of 61 vs 141are well founded. The advantages of the structured 4 year aviation program with the reduced ATP mins to get a regional job make this a no brainer. A good 61 instructor could definitely offer a better, tailored product as others have mentioned. Are you in a position to determine/interview CFI’s to determine as much? Most CFI’s are building time toward something else, corporate, airline, even military. If the instructor is older and has professed to only be interested in teaching, then maybe, just maybe they are worth taking a chance on. The 141 schools have more bureaucracy, stage checks and the like, 61, not required. This bureaucracy creates accountability, something young, inexperienced instructors need along with their students. I could add more but this should suffice.
 
Graybeard said:
Most CFI’s are building time toward something else, corporate, airline, even military. If the instructor is older and has professed to only be interested in teaching, then maybe, just maybe they are worth taking a chance on. The 141 schools have more bureaucracy, stage checks and the like, 61, not required. This bureaucracy creates accountability, something young, inexperienced instructors need along with their students. I could add more but this should suffice.
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Not all of us. I'm a CFI with more than 3,000 hours of dual instruction given, too old for airline jobs and not interested in corporate jobs. Our Part 61 flight school does stage checks. I think every one of our student pilots will fly with me or the chief pilot at least once during their training. We have six CFIs doing primary and instrument training and more than 30 active students as well as a number not so active.
 
Given the relative lack of turnover, I think the great majority of the CFIs at my club are not building time for other jobs.
 
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