Scenario

fiveoboy01

fiveoboy01

Pattern Altitude
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Dirty B
I was practicing some approaches on the sim and for fun I did one at an airport I've landed at in the past. Here's the plate for the ILS 20R at KSNA:

1


A friend lives in the area and we were discussing it and he asked me a question and I didn't know the answer:yikes:

Let's say you are on the SLI 049 radial, and you've been instructed by ATC direct to SAGER intersection, cleared for the approach, you're going to do your parallel entry for the course reversal.

Your radio goes up in smoke just before you get to the intersection. So you do the course reversal, get on the final approach course, and at DA you don't have the runway in sight so you have to go misssed.

Climb straight ahead to the MINOE which is defined by the LOC/DME and the LAX VOR.

Now what do you do? Squawk 7600 is a given but then what? Simply proceed to your alternate and mind the minimum altitudes? Find VFR conditions? I'm not sure, what do the pros say:D

Another question while I'm looking at the plate - there's an alternate missed approach fix which is a hold over the Seal Beach VOR. When would you use this? And how do you know the safe way to get there? Or is this alternate fix something that's handed out by ATC if they need you holding over there? This would assume that your com radio didn't melt.
 
I had a similar question not long ago.

The consensus was to do whatever the hell you needed because it's now an emergency if you're in IMC. If you're in VMC, stay in VMC and proceed to any nearby airport you can get to outside of the clouds. It does not have to be your filed alternate.

The alternate missed approach fix is to be used when assigned by ATC only. ATC may also give you missed approach instructions not on the plate at all. I got this a whole bunch at Livermore and Stockton, prior to being cleared for the approach. At Stockton, the MAH is too close to the VOR (which is used for several other procedures around there), so the altitude is usually altered. At Livermore, the missed procedure crosses the final approach course in the opposite direction, so they really want you going somewhere else.
 
I remember your other thread, but I wasn't sure if it dealt with lost comms or not.

My assumption is that given a working com radio, ATC will probably vector you even before reaching the missed approach fix.

I will never fly that approach and if I did it's unlikely my radio would be on fire, but I always try to go through possible scenarios in my head.
 
Well if I didn't see the runway I'm not sticking around there. I'll go to my alternate, minding the altitudes and shoot the approach that gets me the lowest minimums. I I find VMC I'll stay VMC.
 
I guess that the answer is somewhere in 91.185 (IFR radio failure), but it's still not clear to me what the pilot should do after reaching MINOE with his radio down.

I'd guess "proceed to a fix from which an approach begin and commence descent or descent and approach..." ,per (c)(3)(ii), but which fix? Try again at SNA? An alternate?
 
As someone else said, it's an emergency so do what you need to do. At KSNA it may be just the coastal layer so I would stay VFR above it and fly inland.
 
Fly the missed and go to the alternate,hopefully finding a nice VMC airport.
 
ILS? I'm flying it all the way to the pavement - even if I break out at 30' or less.
 
Not many people are going to like this.

As I understand, we are on the ILS and the radio gives up the ghost. Assuming the NAV part is still working. We were not given a ceiling so I am guessing the weather is just below minimums, but visibility is good, better than 1/2 mile.

With no comms, we are now in an emergency situation. We can now go missed and continue to fly knowing there might be a total electrical failure, or smoke, or electrical fire, or all three.

As long as the visibility is good I would consider following the glide slope on down to the runway, instead of flying around with no radio and possible more electrical problems.

I was given that scenario on a check ride once. No comm radios, only one nav radio, no GPS. At 200 feet I was told runway not in sight but ground comming in sight under us, what are ya going to do? I followed the G/S on down to the runway. Check ride passed. (135 ride)
 
Zeldman said:
Not many people are going to like this.
Click to expand...

I do, :) see my previous post. Another time I am NEVER going missed. OEI on an instrument approach that's aligned with the runway. 500fpm descent is 5.6mph. I will take that sort of vertical impact vs trying to go missed, and doing my best impression of an ice auger.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I guess that the answer is somewhere in 91.185 (IFR radio failure), but it's still not clear to me what the pilot should do after reaching MINOE with his radio down.

I'd guess "proceed to a fix from which an approach begin and commence descent or descent and approach..." ,per (c)(3)(ii), but which fix? Try again at SNA? An alternate?
Click to expand...

91.185 pretty much stops once you have been cleared for the approach. It says nothing about what to do after that.

I would do exactly what the AIM suggests when it say in paragraph 6-4-1

==============================
It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).
==============================

In the IFR world of separation criteria and, these days, widespread radar availability, the controllers know you are NORDO shortly after start the missed approach (in protected airspace). You haven't called to announce the missed, and their calls to you have gone unanswered. So the chances are excellent they are watching and clearing the way.

So go where your planning and the weather updates you got en route (you did that, of course, didn't you, especially once you knew your destination was close to minimums, right?) tell you is the best bet to get in whole keeping your body intact.

There's not enough information in your scenario for me to know exactly what that is. Taking my chances on following the ILS down to touchdown is not out of the question although it's not necessarily my first choice if there are more reasonable ones.
 
EdFred said:
ILS? I'm flying it all the way to the pavement - even if I break out at 30' or less.
Click to expand...

Are we talking just lost comms or total power failure (i.e. no radar return from transponder, so ATC can only track you using primary radar)? If it's just lost comms, and I KNEW where there was VMC, I'd go missed and fly there. If it was an electrical failure (i.e. an emergency) I'd either 1) divert before initiating the approach, especially if I knew it was low IMC, or 2) if the ILS was the most expedient way to get back on the ground, fly the approach to the runway, regardless of minimums. If I believe the cause of the failure could also result in a in-flight fire, I'm getting down on the ground, regardless.

EdFred said:
I do, :) see my previous post. Another time I am NEVER going missed. OEI on an instrument approach that's aligned with the runway. 500fpm descent is 5.6mph. I will take that sort of vertical impact vs trying to go missed, and doing my best impression of an ice auger.
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I agree, presuming I've already initiated the approach. If I'm OEI and VMC is nearby, I'll opt for that, provided it doesn't require any additional climbing over terrain. Once you're stabilized on one engine, there's no harm in passing closer airports with lower weather and or shorter runways, for a nice long one that I can see.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Another question while I'm looking at the plate - there's an alternate missed approach fix which is a hold over the Seal Beach VOR. When would you use this? And how do you know the safe way to get there? Or is this alternate fix something that's handed out by ATC if they need you holding over there? This would assume that your com radio didn't melt.
Click to expand...
That's what it's for. Haven't flown IFR in that area, but if it is like other busy airspace, you are likely to get missed approach instructions from Approach or Tower that have nothing to do with either missed approach fix.
 
Lost comms in the soup isn't an emergency situation. If it were you'd squawk 7700. Just sayin.






*edit to change comes to comms. Stupid autocorrect.
 
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OEI? One engine inoperable???

I should have clarified better. This was a lost comms situation... Com radio failure only is what I was after. No other failures.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
OEI? One engine inoperable???

I should have clarified better. This was a lost comms situation... Com radio failure only is what I was after. No other failures.
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My answer stays the same. I'm not going missed. I don't know what is next to fail.
 
EdFred said:
My answer stays the same. I'm not going missed. I don't know what is next to fail.
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Yep. I agree. Did the radio fail because the alternator failed? Is the wiring in the process of shorting out and about to fill the plane with smoke? I don't know and I am not about to go back up without knowing why the failure occurred.

Same in a twin if one engine has been shut down. Not going missed.
 
EdFred said:
My answer stays the same. I'm not going missed. I don't know what is next to fail.
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I try to deal with the things that are and not spend mental energy on what might be. Lost comms is lost comms. Fires and jacked up alternators present their own clues.

The fact that y'all just gonna ride the GS to the runway tells me you don't think the DA is very important...which is okay I suppose. But understand what you're arguing.

I do single engine missed approaches every check ride and I guarantee I'd bust the first one I tried to just "ride it to the runway" with a dead engine. And that's a dead engine...a clear emergency. You guys are talking about a bad radio.
 
I find it curious that someone would ignore DA and risk hitting something because of a simple com radio failure.

It wouldn't be my first choice. But what do I know, I haven't even taken the checkride yet.
 
You're on the ILS what are you going to hit?
 
Why not just always ignore DA then? Going missed is such an inconvenience.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Why not just always ignore DA then? Going missed is such an inconvenience.
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On an ILS I always ignore DA. You didn't answer the question. What am I going to hit while on the ILS? Rogue sasquatch?
 
EdFred said:
On an ILS I always ignore DA. You didn't answer the question. What am I going to hit while on the ILS? Rogue sasquatch?
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Why is "what you hit" important? Dirt, grass, building, car, telephone poll, plane holding short...they're all bad. Maybe you're a hero and hit the runway. But we're talking about lost comms here and your advocating disregarding the DA, despite that being a bust on any check ride ever given.
 
EdFred said:
I prefer to make my decision in relation to the ground rather than sea level.
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You're way more experienced than me, but...

The only minor issue I "see" (get it?:goofy:) is that if you don't see the runway environment by DA, and you keep right on trucking rather than going missed as required, the ground might ultimately make the decision for you.
 
Unless they completely changed terminology, I was always taught (M)DA for non precision approaches, and DH for the ILS, which is why I ignore DA on the ILS.

"His momma named him Clay, I'm gonna call him Clay."

Even if landing with no ceiling, it's just like a glassy water landing.
 
EdFred said:
Unless they completely changed terminology, I was always taught (M)DA for non precision approaches, and DH for the ILS, which is why I ignore DA on the ILS.

"His momma named him Clay, I'm gonna call him Clay."

Even if landing with no ceiling, it's just like a glassy water landing.
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They have. Look at your local ILS IAP. You won't see a reference to DH anymore, just DA. As you're likely well aware, functionally DA is the same as the old usage of DH. DH was a misnomer from the start and the FAA finally abandoned the old terminology. DH now refers to AGL, not MSL. See 14 CFR 1.1.
 
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EdFred said:
Unless they completely changed terminology, I was always taught (M)DA for non precision approaches, and DH for the ILS, which is why I ignore DA on the ILS.
Click to expand...

MDA for a NPA means minimum DESCENT altitude and DA on an ILS is DECISION altitude. Two different things as I'm sure you know.

Anyways Brad covered it. DH hasn't been used for a while.
 
EdFred said:
Unless they completely changed terminology, I was always taught (M)DA for non precision approaches, and DH for the ILS, which is why I ignore DA on the ILS.
Click to expand...

Were you trying to channel Steven P. McNicoll's obtuse posting style? :goofy:

avatar4692_2.gif
 
register@teamandras.com said:
I guess that the answer is somewhere in 91.185 (IFR radio failure), but it's still not clear to me what the pilot should do after reaching MINOE with his radio down.

I'd guess "proceed to a fix from which an approach begin and commence descent or descent and approach..." ,per (c)(3)(ii), but which fix? Try again at SNA? An alternate?
Click to expand...

I had that same question a little while ago. It is an emergency. If you are aware of some VMC conditions, this is where you want to go. Otherwise, I'd pick an airport nearby with best precision approach available to me and brightest approach lights. And then do whatever I can to land.
 
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