Saving the LSA/SPL

[Jasper]

Really wanting to fly, but I just can't find a program. Every place I call keeps steering me to PPL, which I don't want. What is going on?

Is anything currently on the table to be considered by the FAA to help the LSA/SPL program or is the FAA just waiting for it to take it's last breath?

Thanks in advance.

 

[amster105]

Are you sure the flight schools you are calling even have an LSA? Most don't have one in their fleet and thus can only offer a PPL.

 

[denverpilot]

The last LSA at the local club was wrecked and totaled recently... many aren't as "repairable" as the 40 year old aluminum workhorses, even if parts weren't many months out when ordered from their manufacturer's in Europe, for some of them... which I believe was part of the reason the one that was wrecked was also totaled. Cost of parts, time to get them, and cost of shipping... one fiscally worthless airframe that was only about six years old, I think.

Meanwhile, if you're really looking for LSAs, most places that do LSA, specialize in LSAs or the owner of the flight school is also the U.S. distributor for one of the European LSA manufacturers. Look up the US rep for the aircraft you like, and call them and see who is training in them and where. It'll likely be one specific flight school or two if it's a really popular model. Or they won't be able to name one, and they'll tell you there is one aircraft here, another there...

It's hard for LSAs to compete at their prices, even as cheap as they are for new aircraft, with the remaining flying fleet of aircraft still being kept alive from the 70s. It'll take quite a while to crash enough of those to start to see that changing.

 

[N659HB]

You could always look for someone instructing in a Cub or Champ. Get your tailwheel training and SPL at the same time. Got mine in a Champ. Or buy an older classic that meets LSA limitations and hire an instructor.

 

[rtk11]

To the OP, Light Sport is alive and well...but it seems it’s vibrant in some parts of the country more than others (i.e. Florida, Texas, California). Where are you located? Have you tried asking on a Sport Pilot forum to help find a school near you?

 

[FastEddieB]

OP, what is your location?

Oops! I see that was already asked.

On the East Coast there are Light Sport schools in PA, MD and FL that I know of.

PA - Prof Shuch in Lock Haven

MD - Chesapeake

FL - Lockwood

I’m sure there are others.

 

[DaleB]

I know that in a lot of places it's difficult to impossible to find an LSA available for flight training or rental. Check Barnstormers - there are a couple of places advertising Sport Pilot training. Take a couple of weeks, travel somewhere, knock out most or all of your training.

If you're a little more adventurous and willing to get some help from knowledgeable people, there are airplanes available in pretty much any price range from $20K to well over $100K and pretty much any budget number in between. You can get into a very nice, fully equipped (glass, GPS, autopilot) airplane for $60K or less. It takes a little shipping, but it can be done. If you do that, your flight training cost per hour can go way down. If for some reason you decide flying isn't for you, or you need a different plane, sell it. Just make sure you have a CFI willing to fly in whatever you're buying.

And, finally, remember that any training you get is applicable to a Sport Pilot ticket. You may not be able to solo in a non-LSA, but you can certainly get dual instruction in one.

 

[James331]

Really wanting to fly, but I just can't find a program. Every place I call keeps steering me to PPL, which I don't want. What is going on?

Is anything currently on the table to be considered by the FAA to help the LSA/SPL program or is the FAA just waiting for it to take it's last breath?

Thanks in advance.

Some also push PPL because unless it's a medical related reason for going for LSA, it's makes zero sense to not just get a PPL which still allows you to fly LSA but also gives you a ton more options.


If you tell us where you're located we might have a recommendation, I know of a few places with small tailwheels that would work for LSA

 

[frfly172]

Light sport has not gone away,you just have to do some serious research to find a school that does light sport instruction,that will also rent you a light sport airplane after you get the ticket. Good luck

 

[Half Fast]

OP, what is your location?

I’m sure there are others.

Yep, also First Landings in Apopka, FL. http://www.firstlandings.com/ Several Tecnam LSAs in their fleet and also several instructors. They can provide an accelerated program if you're interested, or you can take the looooong sloooow route like I did.

You might try posting on http://www.sportpilottalk.com/ as well as here.

Tell us a bit more about where you are and what you're trying to do and we might be able to give you a few suggestions and ideas.

 

[Jasper]

<<<<<...updated location in profile.

Found a 162 south of Nashville, but the rates are really high and the drive is quite awful at 2-3 days per week.

Also, found a J230 very near family that I could stay with during training that has rates of $95 and $35 for the Instructor. However, this location just lost their CFIs and the one working towards their LSA CFI will be several more months. I really want to work this school out, but no CFI there is not much I can do other than wait.... Then where can I rent when I get home? I am guessing this J230 is going to handle different than the 162 I would likely try to rent until I could find the right plane for me, so I am then training while renting the 162 dual for how many hours until I can safely solo with this 162? Learning curve I suppose. LSA availability is very sparse for rental purposes. Given the article by John Zimmerman for airfactsjournal in 2014, other congruent opinions and my personal research is why I ask if anything is on the table to help the SPL/LSA market.

Smaller Cessnas like the 150s are all over the place here and would be just perfect given their low cost and availability. My mistake is that I originally thought these smaller Cessnas would be included as an LSA. To me anyway, these Cessnas are the heart of aviation in America and hailed as the trainer plane for recreational (term used loosely) pilots. I am sure I am not telling anyone anything they do not already know, but safety is paramount to anyone involved or considering aviation like myself and to be able to train in a Cessna that could be flown and owned later sounds like a safe way to proceed for me anyway.

Maybe I have overestimated my disposable income to think I can afford flying. I want to make sure I will have reasonable access to a plane that I can rent after getting the ticket so I don't get rusty for obvious safety reasons. I was thinking I could get a modest plane and SPL for around $50k, but it seems like it will take closer to $100k after looking at LSAs- this variation in cost is make/break for me. I still want to solve this problem however to fly and see if I enjoy flying.

Whatever craft I start with is the craft I wish to do my check ride in.

Thanks...will join up over at sportpilottalk and see what I can learn.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Half Fast]

..., other congruent opinions and my personal research is why I ask if anything is on the table to help the SPL/LSA market.

There is some activity ongoing toward revising the light sport rules, and a weight increase is a possibility, but progress is slow (as in glacial). Contact David Oord at David.Oord@aopa.org . He's part of the AOPA's Gov't Affairs office. Let him know you're interested in light sport reform. He can tell you more about what's on the table and the time frame than I can.

 

[N918KT]

There is some activity ongoing toward revising the light sport rules, and a weight increase is a possibility, but progress is slow (as in glacial). Contact David Oord at David.Oord@aopa.org . He's part of the AOPA's Gov't Affairs office. Let him know you're interested in light sport reform. He can tell you more about what's on the table and the time frame than I can.

I did not know that AOPA is working on a light sport aircraft reform. Hopefully this would allow more legacy light aircraft to fall under the definition of LSA.

 

[Half Fast]

I did not know that AOPA is working on a light sport aircraft reform. Hopefully this would allow more legacy light aircraft to fall under the definition of LSA.

That's the hope, but AOPA might not be doing much unless they hear it's important to members. Email Mr. Oord and let him know.

A weight increase would make many legacy aircraft, like all Ercoupes, available to Sport Pilots and to PPs who fall outside the Basic Med time window.

 

[denverpilot]

Lots of people thought the venerable 150/152 should have been “below the line” when LSAs were first introduced. You’re not alone there.

As far as finances goes, you haven’t said if you were doing LSA because of a medical issue, or not, but there are 150/152 type and sized aircraft that are closer to your budget than relatively new LSAs. They’re old, but well maintained ones are still a lot cheaper than any LSA I’ve seen until you get into Ultralights and below.

 

[PaulS]

Really wanting to fly, but I just can't find a program. Every place I call keeps steering me to PPL, which I don't want. What is going on?

Is anything currently on the table to be considered by the FAA to help the LSA/SPL program or is the FAA just waiting for it to take it's last breath?

Thanks in advance.

Not sure why you don't want the private certificate, if you can't find an lsa or sport program, get the PPL then you can fly whatever you want.

 

[SkyDog58]

EAA Sport Pilot Instructor search tool.

 

[DaleB]

I was thinking I could get a modest plane and SPL for around $50k, but it seems like it will take closer to $100k after looking at LSAs- this variation in cost is make/break for me.

Trust me, if it cost $100K to fly an LSA I wouldn't be flying.

https://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1316358_Vans+RV-12.html
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=157910
https://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1335525_STUNNING+ERCOUPE+LSA.html
https://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1344683_Zenith+CH601XL+SLSA.html
https://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1342795_Sonex.html

That's only one of the dozen or so Ercoupes for sale, and I didn't even start looking at Champs, Chiefs and Taylorcrafts. Insurance on these is not prohibitively high even for a student pilot, and operating cost is pretty low -- especially for an Experimental like an RV-12, Sonex or Zenith. Unless you find a local flying club with an LSA, you're going to end up buying anyway if you're going to fly. A $100 per hour rental is a good way to ensure you don't fly much.

 

[Jasper]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Greatly appreciated!

Unfortunately I did not leave the US Military unscathed, so I will not waste time fighting over a medical certificate leading to a PPL that will yield me $0. The SPL would satisfy my needs after having the flying discussion with my personal PCP and an honest personal evaluation.

Nice planes Dale, but most options posed exceed $50k w/licensure expenses included.

Will keep dreaming until I am in the air!

 

[N659HB]

I'm a little biased, but there are Luscombes out there that qualify as LSA for less than $20k. If you can fly a Luscombe (actually if you can LAND a Luscombe), you can fly anything; or so I'm told.

But seriously, if I were you, I'd look for a nice Sonex with a Jabiru engine (and a skinny instructor!) You can learn to fly in your own plane for a lot less than $50k.

 

[rtk11]

Or maybe look to see if there are other Sport Pilots in your area that are willing to go into co-ownership with you. That way you can have a share of the aircraft, and have a CFI fly in your aircraft and instruct you.

If you would consider a trike, there's a trike school in Jasper, but it's $115 an hour, so a little more expensive than the other school with the 162.

Alternatively... maybe you can take a 2 - 3 week vacation and maybe complete the flight portion in Florida or a nearby city? Maybe do the ground school before hand?

 

[Jasper]

I was thinking...
1.* pass the FAA knowledge test locally (testing center is a 5 minute drive from me) using the manuals the flight school uses;
2. attend accelerated flight school over a 2-4 week period to complete the check ride with the J230 while staying with family (hopefully the CFI there gets going soon);
3. buy a newer reliable plane (budget problem after licensure expenses; gotta make this work); then
4. hire any local licensed pilot where my plane is located to fly with me until I am comfortable in the plane on my own.

*Can I self-study for this at home then register for the SPA test with "CATS" and then take the test? Reason I ask is the CFR mentions "school" in the verbiage.

Note: I suppose the title to my thread should have been "Helping"rather than "Saving" the market.

Tremendous thanks to everyone for all the input!

 

[mondtster]

Nice planes Dale, but most options posed exceed $50k w/licensure expenses included.

It seems to me like you’re looking for reasons for this not to work.

There are plenty of sub $20k vintage airplanes that qualify for light sport. You could easily buy one of these airplanes and earn your certificate in it for far less than $50k. In fact, I bet you could do it fairly easily for less than $25k.

 

[Jasper]

It seems to me like you’re looking for reasons for this not to work.

There are plenty of sub $20k vintage airplanes that qualify for light sport.

As a new pilot who intends to fly his wife and daughter around (separately of course), to me, it seems wise to not jump in any old plane jeopardizing their safety. It has to be a plane that I can trust their lives are safe in.

 

[DFH65]

There is nothing inherently dangerous about an old plane. Most have been rebuilt from the ground up several times over the years.

 

[Jasper]

There is nothing inherently dangerous about an old plane. Most have been rebuilt from the ground up several times over the years.

Agreed...and is why I would love to be in an old Cessna that I could afford and would know upon getting the ticket! I would suspect mechanics know these planes well by now.

I have read a few posts where experienced pilots tell noobs to not buy a plane for training as maintenance fees can add several thousand dollars in a hurry.

I will certainly get in touch with David and see if anything is being proposed at the moment.

 

[mondtster]

As a new pilot who intends to fly his wife and daughter around (separately of course), to me, it seems wise to not jump in any old plane jeopardizing their safety. It has to be a plane that I can trust their lives are safe in.

So you’d consider something like a nicely restored Chief or Taylorcraft that only has a value of $15-20k unsafe because it is old and inexpensive? I’d suggest reconsidering and taking a closer look. I’d be far more apt to fly a decent specimen of either of those old planes I mentioned than I would be to fly anything from Jabiru. That’s coming from someone who has a fair amount of time flying behind and working on Jabiru power plants too.

To each their own I guess...

 

[Jasper]

There are plenty of sub $20k vintage airplanes that qualify for light sport. You could easily buy one of these airplanes and earn your certificate in it for far less than $50k. In fact, I bet you could do it fairly easily for less than $25k.

So you’d consider something like a nicely restored Chief or Taylorcraft that only has a value of $15-20k unsafe because it is old and inexpensive? I’d suggest reconsidering and taking a closer look. I’d be far more apt to fly a decent specimen of either of those old planes I mentioned than I would be to fly anything from Jabiru. That’s coming from someone who has a fair amount of time flying behind and working on Jabiru power plants too.

To each their own I guess...

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and opinion.

 

[Jasper]

This is absolutely perfect (supposed to be a 1960 C150): https://www.barnstormers.com/cat.php?mode=listing&main=

 

[PaulS]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Greatly appreciated!

Unfortunately I did not leave the US Military unscathed, so I will not waste time fighting over a medical certificate leading to a PPL that will yield me $0. The SPL would satisfy my needs after having the flying discussion with my personal PCP and an honest personal evaluation.

Nice planes Dale, but most options posed exceed $50k w/licensure expenses included.

Will keep dreaming until I am in the air!

Jasper, this post is a little concerning, especially since you plan on bringing your loved ones with you. The faa medical, while a pain in the butt for some is pretty much common sense for flying. If you have any cognitive, or mental issues or conditions that require prohibited meds then you shouldn't fly. Flying is a risky business and compromising conditions or medications greatly increase the risk. It's not a money proposition, it's a life and death proposition if you have certain conditions, please keep that in mind as you proceed, not only do you have to trust the plane, but pilot must be in tip top shape too.

 

[Jasper]

Jasper, this post is a little concerning, especially since you plan on bringing your loved ones with you. The faa medical, while a pain in the butt for some is pretty much common sense for flying. If you have any cognitive, or mental issues or conditions that require prohibited meds then you shouldn't fly. Flying is a risky business and compromising conditions or medications greatly increase the risk. It's not a money proposition, it's a life and death proposition if you have certain conditions, please keep that in mind as you proceed, not only do you have to trust the plane, but pilot must be in tip top shape too.

Thank you for your concerns Paul. Pretty sure I am good to go after discussing this with my PCP (Primary Care Provider) along with the guidance provided by the FAA (Federal Aviation Administration) and an honest personal evaluation. I assure you my family means more to me than to you. Please, if you want to go off topic PM me. In my very first post I stated I do not want a PPL where the FAA has determined a medical certificate is then required.

Thanks for the Barnstormers website...looks like a lot of good listings.

What I am really interested in is knowing if anything is on the table currently with the FAA to make a SPL more affordable which would result in availability of training programs from my analysis. I will contact David and see if they are considering raising the weight limit.

 

[DaleB]

What I am really interested in is knowing if anything is on the table currently with the FAA to make a SPL more affordable which would result in availability of training programs from my analysis. I will contact David and see if they are considering raising the weight limit.

Nope. And even if there were something in the works, and had broad support, it would be years - or decades - before anything came of it. Don't believe me? Do some research into how long it took to get medical reform passed, and just how far the result ended up from the proposed solutions.

If you can't find a rental you'll either have to buy or just not fly. Find a school, or find a partner or two, get your butt in the air. Or don't. It's not cheap, but it doesn't have to be eye-watering expensive either. If you want to fly, you can find a way to make it happen.

 

[Jasper]

I agree that even if a proposal is sitting directly in front of them it will take forever for anything to happen. I will figure out a way to make this happen safely and affordable. Going to check back in with that school (J230) soon to see how things are going with their CFI.

 

[PaulS]

You brought it up Jasper, I just made a point, mental conditions, PTSD, certain meds, physical conditions, are all well detailed by the faa as to what is acceptable and what isn't, a PCP is not a good judge of these criteria and an "honest evaluation" needs to acknowledge this.

Part of the cost of flying issues that you mention are a direct result of pilots either blatantly ignoring these rules because they want to fly or being in denial that disqualifying conditions are a hazard. There have been many fatal accidents with pilots who have knowingly flown while taking prohibited meds or flown with grounding conditions. I'm sure all of these pilots, those who weren't suicidal anyways, felt their conditions were not a problem. Many of these cases caused innocents to die also. Please consider that these bad decisions affect all of the aviation community and increase the cost of flying through huge resultant lawsuits and corresponding liability increases.

I have no idea, nor do I care to know, if you have disqualifying issues. I just ask that you find out if you do, from a qualified AME. Dr Bruce is one who will answer questions about conditions you have concerns with via email. If it gets to the point there is a chance but a question, he will, for a very reasonable fee, review your records to see if a medical is possible, before you go into the jeopardy of an exam. And I think he would give you an honest opinion as to whether you should fly via SP if there is a concern. There are others who will do this also, you have to find them.

To your question, the FAA doesn't seem to have any interest in making aviation less expensive, they want it to be as safe and risk free as possible. Some here have given you ideas on how to make flying a reality. It's expensive, the best way to get in the air is to make choices that will give you enough money to fly. You have to figure that out.

I'm not trying to bust your chops, but soaring through the air is just a small part of being a pilot, the hard part is gathering the information, knowledge, skill and decision making ability to be safe, then reducing those things to practice. I hope you are able to realize your dream.

 

[Half Fast]

Nope. And even if there were something in the works, and had broad support, it would be years - or decades - before anything came of it.

I don't think it's quite a "Nope," Dale. I had a conversation with the AOPA a few weeks ago and I was told the FAA is presently scoping a rule update project that would include consideration of an LSA weight increase. Granted, it might be a few years before we actually see something happen, but I don't think the situation is quite as stagnant as you imply. If a few folks start making some calls and sending emails to the AOPA and EAA, maybe we can accelerate things a little bit.

I understand there's also an effort in progress trying to get approval for Sport Pilots to fly into Canada, similar to the way we can fly in the Bahamas.

 

[DaleB]

It's like asking if the Sun is going to kill us all. Sure, on a galactic time scale, it might possibly happen some day. Probably not during our lifetimes, though. But maybe. But the probability is not sufficiently high to use it as a planning item.

Long winded way of saying, "Don't hold your breath waiting for it".

 

[denverpilot]

It's like asking if the Sun is going to kill us all. Sure, on a galactic time scale, it might possibly happen some day. Probably not during our lifetimes, though. But maybe. But the probability is not sufficiently high to use it as a planning item.

Long winded way of saying, "Don't hold your breath waiting for it".

I got told by a girl back in Jr High once that she’d go out with me when the sun turned purple. LOL. Was a rather interesting way to say no, which was what made her attractive in the first place. Oh well. LOL.

 

[Doug F]

Not sure why you don't want the private certificate, if you can't find an lsa or sport program, get the PPL then you can fly whatever you want.

I can't speak for the OP but the LSA rentals are cheaper than other aircraft, I have no desire to fly at night, IFR, long distance, or with lots of people in the plane. I like low, slow, and small just fine so SP is a perfect fit for what I'm after. I've probably only got 10 years of flying left (63 right now and prepping for my SP check ride) so buying even a cheap plane is not in the cards (cost/benefit just isn't there).

OTOH, if someone thinks the training for SP costs a lot less than PP...think again; the training is very nearly the same except for longer cross country flights, and VOR type navigation (which the LSAs don't have). Actual hours seem to be pretty close to the same so you pay a bit more for the plane but taken as a whole, the savings for SP aren't all that much. So if I was doing SP to save money over PP, THEN I'd just go PP and call it a day.

 

[Jasper]

I just found this: https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...vocacy/top-aviation-issues/aeromedical-reform

Nothing about LSA getting fatter to add the 150s though:https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...vocacy/top-aviation-issues/aeromedical-reform

What would the harm be in permitting a PPL CFI to train a SPL student in small Cessnas (or the comparable readily available planes-I'm new here ), but when you get your ticket you are still confined to a LSA? How often do people actually own and fly the same make/model of plane they trained on anyway? Sport Pilots would have the instructor and a plane just around the corner. I suppose though that this would work and that would not be good.

 

[rtk11]

What would the harm be in permitting a PPL CFI to train a SPL student in small Cessnas (or the comparable readily available planes-I'm new here ), but when you get your ticket you are still confined to a LSA? How often do people actually own and fly the same make/model of plane they trained on anyway? Sport Pilots would have the instructor and a plane just around the corner. I suppose though that this would work and that would not be good.

You WANT to train for your Sport Pilot certificate with a CFI rated to teach private pilot. Why? Because your hours will count toward a PP certificate if you want to pursue that. But if you train with a CFI-SP (sport pilot CFI), you will not be able to apply the 22+ hours toward the private pilot rating.

As a Sport Pilot, you will be limited to flying aircraft in conformance to the LSA rules. So S-LSA, E-LSA, and GA aircraft that fit within the LSA category (e.g. ErCoupe)

Not sure about owning the same type aircraft a student trains in and how often that occurs. I know in Torrance, the Sling Flying Club attracts students to buy their aircraft, so likely a higher incidence of training/ownership there. I trained in a Remos that I liked pretty well, but ended up with a SportCruiser because I fell in love with the low wing styling.