Saving money

Bob Weber

Bob Weber

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jan 29, 2019
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Autopilot Whisperer
It amazes me how hard it is to save people money. I spent some time on the phone with a guy trying to help with a typical autopilot issue. I attempted to explain the common issues we saw in nearly every one of the installations.

Rather than listening to the advice and spending the $100 on an under priced switch, he beat on me for more info and got out bid on the switch.

The guy that bought the switch has my "pocket full of tools" as well now.

How can you justify mincing a $100 either way when your dealing with your life and those around you, in an aircraft you have well over $100,000 invested in?
 
I'm astounded by how cheap pilots are and how ratty some planes are. It seems like what's holding most of these planes together is good engineering... not any maintenance at all. I knew of a flight school with total POS planes and really the only reason they hadn't killed anyone is the redundant engineering by Piper and Cessna... not because they actually gave a **** about their planes or customers.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I'm super anal and I'm pretty sure my A&P is getting annoyed at me for how much I want replaced that isn't broken.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I'm astounded by how cheap pilots are and how ratty some planes are. It seems like what's holding most of these planes together is good engineering... not any maintenance at all. I knew of a flight school with total POS planes and really the only reason they hadn't killed anyone is the redundant engineering by Piper and Cessna... not because they actually gave a **** about their planes or customers.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum, I'm super anal and I'm pretty sure my A&P is getting annoyed at me for how much I want replaced that isn't broken.
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I started a thread on another site challenging owner/pilots to crawl up under their panel and look up, then imagine getting the hell beat out of you in the soup, with your family on board. I was eviscerated.

The most important component in the autopilots I work with is everything other than the boxes, not to say boxes don't fail. "Everything else" cannot be boxed up and shipped out for "IRAN", and poses just as much, or more of problem than any one of the boxes.

I don't want to rewire every old aircraft out there, nor am I physically capable. I just want to create awareness, and educate toward the ability to recognize issues ahead of incidences.
 
Bob Weber said:
Check with Honeywell... 031-0326-00. I try to be nice to my clients.
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There is no doubt.
There is no doubt that you are doing the best you can given the circumstances.
There is no doubt that $100 for an obsolete out of production switch is a good deal.
There is no doubt that a $10.00 switch would do the exact same job and be at least (if not more) reliable.
There is no doubt that the FAA would have a **** fit if you did this on a type certificated aircraft.
There is no doubt that you could put any kind of switch you want on an E-AB aircraft and no one, absolutely no one, would even blink.
There is no doubt that the whole system is beyond stupid.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Depends on the switch.
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Well I certainly wouldn't want this one to be intermittent.
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Pilots are probably cheap because the only other option is to get out of flying. In other words, they can barely afford it as it is now (or prioritize the dollars elsewhere because it seems not as important...hence hanging on by a thread before having to do the unthinkable and getting out...admitting defeat vs avoiding the inevitable). Maybe a fatalistic way of looking at it.
 
So a salesman didn’t make a sale and the customer much be cheap is the reason.

Where have I head that before.

Oh yeah, from every salesman who didn’t make a sale.


*I used to be a sales guy too, just never blew smoke.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Pilots are probably cheap because the only other option is to get out of flying.
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From my experience, it's more the personality of the person (pilot) than just being cheap in general. I've had customers that were of means but were just cheapskates and other customers on a tight budget that would pay for the top shelf solution. So while aviation can be a "rich" mans game to play, I think it's more how a owner/pilot understands aviation and their aircraft in general and the importance they put on that knowledge vs someone who is less knowledgeable or simply refuses to understand and consciously decides not to spend money. For example, how many on this forum buy a battery minder to "fix" a battery that goes dead in a week vs spend money on getting the electrical drain problem truly fixed? So it all depends how you want to define cheap.
 
James331 said:
So a salesman didn’t make a sale and the customer much be cheap is the reason.

Where have I head that before.

Oh yeah, from every salesman who didn’t make a sale.


*I used to be a sales guy too, just never blew smoke.
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Funny, the "salesman" needs to check his spelling, a couple times...
 
Bob Weber said:
How can you justify mincing a $100 either way when your dealing with your life and those around you, in an aircraft you have well over $100,000 invested in?
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Because some people are like that. I believe "penny wise and pound foolish" is the phrase used to describe such folks. Often you can't identify them until you've wasted time on them.

Best to put it behind you and move on.

If you told me that my autopilot needed a $100 switch, I'd have signed the check before you finished the sentence. I miss those trips across the lake so could figure out what was ailing my old 400B. :D
 
With some people who are cost conscious, it's a matter of principle. My 90+ year old neighbor is well off and owned a 2 year old Lexus. He had only one key fob, dropped it and ran it over with his golf cart. The Lexus dealer wanted over 200 bucks which he refused to pay so he kept driving with it after he soldered and glued it back together (only worked intermittently). For a joke I sent him a recall letter from Lexus (fake) saying the keys were unsafe and needed to be replaced. Next afternoon I went over to laugh about the prank but he had already gone to the Lexus dealer, had a fight over the key (still wouldn't pay for it) but, instead, he bought a NEW Lexus because he thought that was a good deal.
 
donjohnston said:
Because some people are like that. I believe "penny wise and pound foolish" is the phrase used to describe such folks. Often you can't identify them until you've wasted time on them.

Best to put it behind you and move on.

If you told me that my autopilot needed a $100 switch, I'd have signed the check before you finished the sentence. I miss those trips across the lake so could figure out what was ailing my old 400B. :D
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Don those days are not over, I'm even closer now! Just a phone call away.

I still do my best to help folks get their autopilots working properly, now I am working on a network of shops I can work thru for troubleshooting.

A good percentage of the time, I'm able to guide your local mechanic thru the process, often it is wiring or other peripheral switches, breakers, etc..

If we find it's a box that's a problem, I have a guy. We discuss the issue before you send it to them, then go straight to it once they have it in house. Of course, like a good diner, there is a bit of a wait at times. Give a call if you would like 616 822 1999.
 
James331 said:
Said I used to be a salesman, not a spelling teacher

Don’t be mad at me that no one wanted to buy your used $100 switch.
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As stated, it sold for $250, plus an hour of my time.. I am a salesman and can spell, and can save people time and money fixing their aircraft.
 
James331 said:
So a salesman didn’t make a sale and the customer much be cheap is the reason.

Where have I head that before.

Oh yeah, from every salesman who didn’t make a sale.

*I used to be a sales guy too, just never blew smoke.
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Lol! Pretty much nailed it James. Couldn't get a word in edgewise with the guy. Came on as helpful, then after bad mouthing some decent autopilot repair shops, wanted $$$ for info repair shops give as standard procedure. Then noticed him in this thread bragging about bilking some poor guy $400 for a $50 switch. Quite the autopilot consulting hero indeed. Sad... Perhaps he should strongly consider fully retiring. Nearly all the repair shops are aware of his toxic troll behavior on the forums, as he also bugs them for info, then tries to make a buck with it. Won't be long...
 
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Pepperjet said:
Lol! Pretty much nailed it James. Couldn't get a word in edgewise with the guy. Came on as helpful, then after bad mouthing some decent autopilot repair shops, wanted $$$ for info repair shops give as standard procedure. Then noticed him in this thread bragging about bilking some poor guy $400 for a $50 switch. Quite the autopilot consulting hero indeed. Sad... Perhaps he should strongly consider fully retiring. Nearly all the repair shops are aware of his toxic troll behavior on the forums, as he also bugs them for info, then tries to make a buck with it. Won't be long...
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There's one in every crowd! Please tell me where I can get that switch for $50, Please...
 
It isn't just planes, people don't maintain their boats or vehicles well either.
Others think they need to buy the coolest plane they can possibly afford, leaving them too broke for proper maintenance. Personally I would rather have less plane, and maintain it perfectly if money was tight.
We all make our own choices, people are probably going to question my next airplane choice, I decided to buy brand new, basic, slow, instead of faster, and more complex like my last few planes were. My thinking is that I want to just once own a new plane, never have before. I can spend an extra 10, 20, 30, 40 minutes getting to my destination, and just enjoy the flight instead of rushing. Being new should simplify my maintenance for many years, as will the plane itself being simple in design. It will do anything and everything that I need it to, and it will allow me to get into and out of strips that many other planes wouldn't allow me to use. A local guy who has a great reputation will do my maintenance for me right in my hangar. Being anal about the maintenance of everything I own, from cars, boats, motorcycles, to planes, if anything I may over do the maintenance. I like the idea of keeping it simple, then maintaining it very well.
Makes sense to me, but others are allowed to choose their own path in life, including poor decisions on maintenance.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
There is no doubt.
There is no doubt that you are doing the best you can given the circumstances.
There is no doubt that $100 for an obsolete out of production switch is a good deal.
There is no doubt that a $10.00 switch would do the exact same job and be at least (if not more) reliable.
There is no doubt that the FAA would have a **** fit if you did this on a type certificated aircraft.
There is no doubt that you could put any kind of switch you want on an E-AB aircraft and no one, absolutely no one, would even blink.
There is no doubt that the whole system is beyond stupid.
Click to expand...

This. Most factory-built owners are basically chronic Stockholm syndrome sufferers. Problem is some of these clownshoes then start casting aspersions on those who raise reasoned complaints about the cost structure. The subtext of course being that, if you're not willing to overpay for the privilege to be in the death-by-Airworthiness-Directive Hanoi Hilton club, you're not the kind of people they want in their dying hobby. It's beyond insufferable and one of the reasons I've frozen my capex footprint on this hobby until I can go EAB.
 
I’m not afraid to spend money if I need to... but if I can avoid it I will. I won’t do unauthorized work but like to get at problem first if I can... to have an idea what’s going on... I almost replaced a radio and all it was was a wrong fuse... started being intermittent and I cleaned contacts- still an issue, a fuse shouldn't be intermittent just works or doesn’t but I turn over every dumb Stone I can. I checked the fuse- not blown but pulled it’s neighbor it was slightly different physical size... yup my old bird uses an AGS buss fuse I believe which looks very very similar t to the AGC fuses NAPA sells. Was a simple mistake someone made long ago and it worked fine for a long while. I was ready to buy a new radio when all I needed was a $8 box of NOS fuses available on eBay...

Spend when needed save when ya can.
 
Huckster79 said:
I’m not afraid to spend money if I need to... but if I can avoid it I will. I won’t do unauthorized work but like to get at problem first if I can... to have an idea what’s going on... I almost replaced a radio and all it was was a wrong fuse... started being intermittent and I cleaned contacts- still an issue, a fuse shouldn't be intermittent just works or doesn’t but I turn over every dumb Stone I can. I checked the fuse- not blown but pulled it’s neighbor it was slightly different physical size... yup my old bird uses an AGS buss fuse I believe which looks very very similar t to the AGC fuses NAPA sells. Was a simple mistake someone made long ago and it worked fine for a long while. I was ready to buy a new radio when all I needed was a $8 box of NOS fuses available on eBay...

Spend when needed save when ya can.
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Generally, with a well placed voltmeter, you can save all kinds of time and money.

The trick also, is what I was trying to convey to the original guy, when you see a bug, stomp on it.

He had a switch with a classic failure he had been nursing along until he said another issue cropped up.

I gave him the opportunity to address the obviously failed switch, then evaluate the other issue.

The other option I mentioned was looking into it with a voltmeter, all the while explaining how I could guide him thru this and all of the very common things my experience has shown me with his particular airframe/autopilot combination.

When your dealing with an average of nine boxes, and a quarter mile of wiring, you wouldn't believe how much time and money you can save when your half way to the solution by approaching a familiar problem rather than a mystery..
 
Bob Weber said:
Generally, with a well placed voltmeter, you can save all kinds of time and money.

The trick also, is what I was trying to convey to the original guy, when you see a bug, stomp on it.

He had a switch with a classic failure he had been nursing along until he said another issue cropped up.

I gave him the opportunity to address the obviously failed switch, then evaluate the other issue.

The other option I mentioned was looking into it with a voltmeter, all the while explaining how I could guide him thru this and all of the very common things my experience has shown me with his particular airframe/autopilot combination.

When your dealing with an average of nine boxes, and a quarter mile of wiring, you wouldn't believe how much time and money you can save when your half way to the solution by approaching a familiar problem rather than a mystery..
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Absolutly, I was just sharing another occurrence of something similar but different... My autopilot is pointing her in right direction and trimming her out and hoping I don't shift in the seat too much to throw the trim out of whack lol. But If I had one and it needed $100, I would think thats a pretty cheap fix for an autopilot, especially if its a known issue..
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
There is no doubt.
There is no doubt that you are doing the best you can given the circumstances.
There is no doubt that $100 for an obsolete out of production switch is a good deal.
There is no doubt that a $10.00 switch would do the exact same job and be at least (if not more) reliable.
There is no doubt that the FAA would have a **** fit if you did this on a type certificated aircraft.
There is no doubt that you could put any kind of switch you want on an E-AB aircraft and no one, absolutely no one, would even blink.
There is no doubt that the whole system is beyond stupid.
Click to expand...
Edit:
I take that back (some of it).
I think replacing a $200 Honeywell pushbutton switch with a $10 Tyco pushbutton switch that fits in the hole and has at least as high a current rating should be a minor alteration. Sign off with a log book entry. Right? If not, why not?
So, why buy the Honeywell when there is no real reason?
So some sharp eye IA doesn't **** when he sees it some time down the road? Or, is it just that no one is willing to accept the fact that COTS parts are COTS parts?

(Obviously, I ain't no A&P)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Edit:
I take that back (some of it).
I think replacing a $200 Honeywell pushbutton switch with a $10 Tyco pushbutton switch that fits in the hole and has at least as high a current rating should be a minor alteration. Sign off with a log book entry. Right? If not, why not?
So, why buy the Honeywell when there is no real reason?
So some sharp eye IA doesn't **** when he sees it some time down the road? Or, is it just that no one is willing to accept the fact that COTS parts are COTS parts?

(Obviously, I ain't no A&P)
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I think many are just too concerned with liability and do things overly conventional to limit their liablility... Much like our docs do many things defensively that really aren't part of our care. But I agree with you. I'm hearing theres a chance some of the rules may get laxed a bit for old aircraft which really is a majority of our fleet... fingers crossed though I know no details. There might be a thread on it..
 
In today's litigious society, why would you risk having a $10 switch that you saved $400 dollars on, repairing a $100K plus aircraft, pulled out of a smoking hole, possibly negating any insurance, and perhaps bringing further liability?

I shop around for the cheapest fuel prices, not the the cheapest maintenance...
 
Exactly. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's better nor safer. In fact, in the case of the factory built light piston that isn't being used for revenue, nor supported well by industry due to the very fact it is not used for revenue in the first place, the pricing structure might in fact be inversely correlated to safety.

The FAA is merely exercising CYA against a segment of aviation they wish would die already (if their airline corporate overlords would have the final say on it), and the mx providers parrot the govt's anachronistic position only to defend their own personal stake in the finger-pointing process. And look, I think that defensive stance is fine if you're trying to guard your rent money, but just own it and call a spade a spade; don't hide behind the specious canard of "safety".
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
using some old obsolete (or even used) part when you use a current, safe and effective part?
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Explaining the use of an "as removed", correct part number, (in this case new old stock) never removed part, might be a bit easier than your $10 part.

I'm reminded of when I realized there are two different types of pilots out there.

Very early in my career I was beat on heavily about final inspection before walking away.

I was in the walking away stage on a P210 that was on it's way to CA. for vacation. A doctor, his wife, and their two teenage children. I don't recall what I had to fix but it was an unplanned stop.

Especially alert because those aircraft have so much packed into such a small package, I was drawn to a "ting" sound every time I returned the yoke to nose down. For the life of me I could not figure out where that sound was coming from.

I finally went to a Bud, the inspector at the time to get a second set of eyes. He came out of that aircraft as white as I had ever seen him and showed me the up elevator cable that was over 50% severed, one strand was tinking off the cable guide, just out of view.

It was when I saw him parading all of the mechanics to the aircraft and telling them "this is what we are looking for" that I understood the gravity of the situation.

When I informed the family of the discovery, they were furious, understandably. Having to shift from GA to the airlines in order to continue is a pain. What I didn't realize at first, was they were furious at me, all of them, for pointing out the issue. They pleaded with us to let them continue on.

There are two different types of pilots.


I'm the pilot that would give a heartfelt hug, hell maybe even a tip to the $5.50/hour married father would be in order for the guy that may have prevented a tragedy..
 
Bob Weber said:
Explaining the use of an "as removed", correct part number, (in this case new old stock) never removed part, might be a bit easier than your $10 part.

I'm reminded of when I realized there are two different types of pilots out there.

Very early in my career I was beat on heavily about final inspection before walking away.

I was in the walking away stage on a P210 that was on it's way to CA. for vacation. A doctor, his wife, and their two teenage children. I don't recall what I had to fix but it was an unplanned stop.

Especially alert because those aircraft have so much packed into such a small package, I was drawn to a "ting" sound every time I returned the yoke to nose down. For the life of me I could not figure out where that sound was coming from.

I finally went to a Bud, the inspector at the time to get a second set of eyes. He came out of that aircraft as white as I had ever seen him and showed me the up elevator cable that was over 50% severed, one strand was tinking off the cable guide, just out of view.

It was when I saw him parading all of the mechanics to the aircraft and telling them "this is what we are looking for" that I understood the gravity of the situation.

When I informed the family of the discovery, they were furious, understandably. Having to shift from GA to the airlines in order to continue is a pain. What I didn't realize at first, was they were furious at me, all of them, for pointing out the issue. They pleaded with us to let them continue on.

There are two different types of pilots.


I'm the pilot that would give a heartfelt hug, hell maybe even a tip to the $5.50/hour married father would be in order for the guy that may have prevented a tragedy..
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It's a good story. I won't go so far as to say I don't think it's true, but I will say I doubt there are very many people out there that would be arguing to take their family in a plane with a control cable about to fail. But it sure sounds good.
 
First thing is you need to convince yourself that educating owners is not your job. Simple stuff here. This is what you need, here is my price. No explanation, no convincing, have a good day.
 
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