Saratoga Drivers question.

Rebel Lord

Rebel Lord

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Rebel Lord
After much consideration and research i've come to the conclusion that the Saratoga fits my long term mission needs.

How easy is this plane flying wise, as a new pilot I don't want to hop into a high performance complex monster and get over whelmed. After I get my high performance and complex training is this going to be like drinking from a firehose moving up from a 160hp cherokee, or is this going to be a smooth transition?
 
I'm interested to hear the responses as well. I fly an Archer, and was thinking of a Saratoga as my transition plane on my way up to either a Mirage or a twin.
 
Rykymus said:
I'm interested to hear the responses as well. I fly an Archer, and was thinking of a Saratoga as my transition plane on my way up to either a Mirage or a twin.
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I was concidering an archer too but I want a complex so I can do my commercial. I'm also looking at arrows too but I need somthing with lots of useful load.
 
Performance Saratoga
  • Max speed: 165 kts
  • Cruise speed: 139 kts
  • Range: 1000 nm
  • Service ceiling: 14600 msl
  • Rate of climb: 1050 ft/min
Performance Cherokee
Small difference (30kts delta) in performance and no difference in ceiling assuming both or neither are turbocharged (both have a constant speed prop and retractable). Fifteen hundred pounds heavier and double the HP so double the fuel burn. The high performance "training" will be nothing more than a single flight with a CFI to get the logbook endorsement.
 
citizen5000 said:
Performance Saratoga
  • Max speed: 165 kts
  • Cruise speed: 139 kts
  • Range: 1000 nm
  • Service ceiling: 14600 msl
  • Rate of climb: 1050 ft/min
Performance Cherokee
Small difference (30kts delta) in performance and no difference in ceiling assuming both or neither are turbocharged (both have a constant speed prop and retractable). Fifteen hundred pounds heavier and double the HP so double the fuel burn. The high performance "training" will be nothing more than a single flight with a CFI to get the logbook endorsement.
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the place where im looking to do my complex/highperformance says somthing like 10 hours of flight training and ground school.
 
A Saratoga is much too small to carry all of those women you're seeing.
 
the transition won't be hard. more rudder, but much more solid feeling
 
I transitioned from a pa28-180 (105 knots if I pointed the nose down) to a Saratoga (fixed gear) that cruises at 145 knots.

As mentioned earlier... More right rudder!!! 300 ponies will require more right rudder.

The thing that will take some adjustment for you is that it's a little faster so don't get behind it when entering pattern / approach. It's a little harder to slow down but cut power enough trim and it can be done efficiently.

The first time I was behind the yoke of my Toga I was a little overwhelmed. When I firewalled the throttle on the first TO I was a startled. 300 HP is awesome!!!

As for flying the thing. Couldn't be easier. It's long tapered wings make it as stable as it comes. There are days I can fly my Toga when lots of planes stay grounded due to the rough ride.

All the V speeds are a little higher but just learn them. It's nbd.

One thing I wished I'd have known earlier was that book speeds are for gross weight (just like any plane). But in a plane with 1400 useful and you're solo or you and CFI you're potentially 800+ Under gross... Try flying final at book speed and let me know how much runway you need. Can you say float!!! Load it up closer to gross and fly the book speeds. I actually find flying heavy is much much easier in nearly every phase of flight.

Eventually you'll get a *feel* for it and short field landings are easy.

I love my Toga.
 
Btw I had less than 100 hours in my logbook for this transition. It's not a hard plane to fly. Just like any plane though, low and slow can kill you. In the pattern I keep a minimum 90 knots all the way through base to final turn. Nice cushion and I can slow it down no problem once final.
 
Transition from a PA28 to PA32 is very simple. The biggest thing I noticed was I wasn't bumping shoulders with the person next to me. The extra width is VERY nice!!

The transition from PA32 to PA28 is not as enjoyable
 
citizen5000 said:
double the HP so double the fuel burn.
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Well kinda. I mean if you are looking at flying to Toga around town for joy rides then yeah you've got a point. I can easily lean to 12gph to take friends around the town at sunset.

If you're actually going somewhere I found that my "miles per gallon" was pretty comparable due to speed increase. 50% increase fuel burn (LOP @ 65% HP / 13.5 gph / 145 knots TAS) vs pa28-180 - 8gph / 105 knots TAS.
 
I bought a PA-32 with 75TT after training in a warrior. Not a big deal. You will want to get a checkout at full gross weight as it is a little different animal. Also can tend to land flat with the longer nose and big engine out there.
 
Agree with the others. It is a transition, but not a difficult one to do as a low time pilot. You will learn how to use rudder (and rudder trim). It will require more leg muscle to steer on the ground. In flight, you will find similar in handling, but more stable. You'll enjoy it.

I flew my dad's PA32RT when I had 50-60 hours. Not hard.
 
This is all very encouraging, so which saratoga is the best though? whats the differences between the Saratoga SP, Saratoga II HP and the Saratoga II T?
 
I agree with what the others have said. Not a big transition. My recent Toga flying is in the II TC. It burns more like 18gph. Cruise speed closer to 160. More stable/capable than a PA28. Not already mentioned is the W&B. You will need to pay attention. You can not fill the seats and the tanks. Put the data in Foreflight if you use it and it's a breeze. Just stay within limits and if you fill the seats you will not be flying far in the II TC.
 
The SP just stands for the retract version made in the early 80's, the SP interior will not be as nice and never was. The later model have a lot of weight creep. Early models will give you 1300 plus. Mine has factory AC and still has 1298 useful load. Late models get as low as 1150. The later models are also 5 to 10 knots faster due to some aerodynamic clean up that was done around 1993. Those planes can usually be recognised by the small cowl openings, although an STC is availible for the new cowl style on older planes.

The other minor change that happened in 83 or 84 is Piper went to electric flaps over the pull bar.

As for what is better for you, if luxury and a little more speed is what you want go later. If you want cheaper prices, and more useful load go earlier.

As for flying, I went from a Warrior to a toga. 1st is much heavier and feels like it. Very stable in the bumps, and very stable for IFR. It is a traveling plane. I find that unlike the Warrior which likes to float, once the gear is down, and the prop is forward it will fall like a rock. You generally want to land with some power in, get in your flair, then slowly pull it out. You will sink too fast if you go idol on short final.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
drotto said:
The SP just stands for the retract version made in the early 80's, the SP interior will not be as nice and never was. The later model have a lot of weight creep. Early models will give you 1300 plus. Mine has factory AC and still has 1298 useful load. Late models get as low as 1150. The later models are also 5 to 10 knots faster due to some aerodynamic clean up that was done around 1993. Those planes can usually be recognised by the small cowl openings, although an STC is availible for the new cowl style on older planes.

The other minor change that happened in 83 or 84 is Piper went to electric flaps over the pull bar.

As for what is better for you, if luxury and a little more speed is what you want go later. If you want cheaper prices, and more useful load go earlier.

As for flying, I went from a Warrior to a toga. 1st is much heavier and feels like it. Very stable in the bumps, and very stable for IFR. It is a traveling plane. I find that unlike the Warrior which likes to float, once the gear is down, and the prop is forward it will fall like a rock. You generally want to land with some power in, get in your flair, then slowly pull it out. You will sink too fast if you go idol on short final.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
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Ya I'll probably go early, i think it's stupid to have a 1100 useful load with six places.

I need 1000 lbs just for three passengers and me. Plus since this is also a business plane I need a heavy lifter.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Ya I'll probably go early, i think it's stupid to have a 1100 useful load with six places.

I need 1000 lbs just for three passengers and me. Plus since this is also a business plane I need a heavy lifter.
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Remember the tanks hold 102 gallons so 612 lbs. So most have about 700 with full tanks. The POH says you can have a ramp weight of 3615 as opposed to the 3600 gross. That is 6 hrs plus IFR reserves with full tanks, and not many people are going to want to do that. Most people fill the sight glasses on the wings to full, which gives you 70 gallons, and an additional 180 lbs to play with.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
The Saratoga is the Buick station wagon of single-engine airplanes. Comfortable, stable, goes where you point it. If it were a dog, it would be a St. Bernard -- big, sloppy, loyal, lovable, dependable -- and kinda expensive to feed. If money were no object, a Saratoga is probably what we would own.

In the mid-'80s, a friend was shopping for a Centurion to replace the Archer in which he had recently learned to fly. I suggested he look at the Saratoga instead. He bought a factory-new Turbo Saratoga SP in 1985. He still has it.

drotto said:
The SP just stands for the retract version made in the early 80's
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If you're looking at the 1980-85 catalogs, just plain "Saratoga" meant the fixed-gear model (PA-32-301 or turbocharged PA-32-301T). The retractables were "Saratoga SP" (PA-32R-301) and "Turbo Saratoga SP" (PA-32R-301T). The later "Saratoga II" was a retractable with redesigned interior and instrument panel, and smaller windows (what's up with that?!). The corresponding turbocharged model was "Saratoga II TC".

The other minor change that happened in 83 or 84 is Piper went to electric flaps over the pull bar.
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Electric flaps were first installed on the 1985 model Saratogas.

I heartily agree with the suggestion above to fly with an instructor with the airplane loaded to both light weights and max gross. It's two different airplanes. Neither is "bad" -- just different.
 
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But, to answer your question OP, the airplane won't be much to handle as a new pilot so long as you understand the proficiency level you'll need to step up to.

If you have Cherokee time, you'll be fine. If you expect it to fly exactly like a 180hp Cherokee, you'd be wrong.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
:rofl:

...I was thinking it fits 4 people in the back normally, 13 17-year olds from another country.
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Lol yeah ;)

Cpt_Kirk said:
But, to answer your question OP, the airplane won't be much to handle as a new pilot so long as you understand the proficiency level you'll need to step up to.

If you have Cherokee time, you'll be fine. If you expect it to fly exactly like a 180hp Cherokee, you'd be wrong.
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I plan on stepping up my flying big time when I get my own plane, well when my company gets the plane. :D

It's going to be used only incidentally to the business of course but with the amount of travel we do we are going to be using it extensively. What I want is a solid IFR platform to do my training in and into my commercial training.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Lol yeah ;)



I plan on stepping up my flying big time when I get my own plane, well when my company gets the plane. :D

It's going to be used only incidentally to the business of course but with the amount of travel we do we are going to be using it extensively. What I want is a solid IFR platform to do my training in and into my commercial training.
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It is a great IFR platform, and the big panel makes upgrading very easy. The one I fly has a G500, G750, and a G650. There is room to spare on the panel.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
Rebel Lord said:
Ya I'll probably go early, i think it's stupid to have a 1100 useful load with six places.

I need 1000 lbs just for three passengers and me. Plus since this is also a business plane I need a heavy lifter.
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If you need more useful load you will get more with a 1976 to 78 Piper Lance. They have a more useful load than a Toga. A two blade prop will give you a 155+ cruise speed.
 
Rebel Lord said:
the place where im looking to do my complex/highperformance says somthing like 10 hours of flight training and ground school.
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Is this 10 hours transition training?? I can't see how you need more than 1 flight for HP endorsement
 
EminiTrader said:
Is this 10 hours transition training?? I can't see how you need more than 1 flight for HP endorsement
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Most insurance companies are going to require 10 hours transition especially if you have never flown retract. It is what they requested of me, and they also requested a letter of endorsement from my CFI. Even with 10 hours they were reluctant to put me on a policy when I was around 100 hrs flight time.
 
My Toga is fixed gear. My insurance simply required an instructors endorsement. That was it. With less than a hundred hours in the log book I soloed my Toga after about 1 hour with my CFI... and most of that hour was figuring out WTH that blue lever was for.

As for the main diffences between fixed and retract:

Fixed is cheaper to maintain and insure and generally has much more useful load. Retract adds 10-15 knots and looks cooler according to some.

Fixed gear Togas are pretty hard to find. They only made them for a few years in the early 80's when retracts were really gaining popularity.
 
If you want straight legs, you can go with the PA32-300. Ours is a '75. Very much the same plane to fly. Biggest thing I notice is the back pressure/trim when landing. There's a lot more weight hanging up there then on the other planes I fly. That and the nose is longer because of those extra cylinders and the front baggage compartment.

Transition is easy (as you've been told)
 
arkvet said:
.....As mentioned earlier... More right rudder!!! 300 ponies will require more right rudder.....
Click to expand...

Agreed.

arkvet said:
.....300 HP is awesome!!!
Click to expand...

Agreed.

arkvet said:
.....As for flying the thing. Couldn't be easier....
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Agreed.

arkvet said:
.....All the V speeds are a little higher but just learn them. It's nbd.....
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I also would have agreed with the "I love my toga" comment but I ain't got one of my own.
 
Rebel Lord said:
the place where im looking to do my complex/highperformance says somthing like 10 hours of flight training and ground school.
Click to expand...

10hrs?!

Sounds like someone's baby needs a new pair of shoes.


Haven't flown the toga, but flown most all of the other pipers, and the cessnas, going from a 152 ranging up to a 208b, they get more weight and more power, most times as a pilot you do notice that the controls are heavier and in a low energy state it takes a little more to get out of a bad spot, aka it's more and more important to see a bad spot before you get into it.

I'd wager a beer if you're flown any RG PAs, you should be safe in a couple hours, you'll make it sing after 20hrs.
 
James331 said:
10hrs?!

Sounds like someone's baby needs a new pair of shoes.


Haven't flown the toga, but flown most all of the other pipers, and the cessnas, going from a 152 ranging up to a 208b, they get more weight and more power, most times as a pilot you do notice that the controls are heavier and in a low energy state it takes a little more to get out of a bad spot, aka it's more and more important to see a bad spot before you get into it.

I'd wager a beer if you're flown any RG PAs, you should be safe in a couple hours, you'll make it sing after 20hrs.
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The complex sign off is 10 hrs in most cases, it was for me. The insurance company also required at least 10 hrs. I just did it about 1 year ago, he is not making this up.
 
Rebel Lord said:
After much consideration and research i've come to the conclusion that the Saratoga fits my long term mission needs.

How easy is this plane flying wise, as a new pilot I don't want to hop into a high performance complex monster and get over whelmed. After I get my high performance and complex training is this going to be like drinking from a firehose moving up from a 160hp cherokee, or is this going to be a smooth transition?
Click to expand...
It is just another airplane.

You have more power, and have to remember to retract and LOWER the gear. Nose will -look- higher on landing, etc.

But it isn't a DC-7
 
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