San Diego VFR transitions

[onwards]

I think I have my route for my trip south planned as far as the LAX Bravo is concerned; basically, I intend to avoid it to the east

But flying into Brown field means I have to navigate through San Diego Bravo - which looks even crazier than the LAX Bravo, something I never imagined possible.

Of course, it's stressful enough to fly so close to the Mexico border - I can just imagine myself landing in Tijuana by mistake (damn, those two are close!), although hopefully between the 430 and Foreflight I'll be able to avoid that.

So if you live down there - what is my best bet? use the VFR transition route through the Bravo along the shore? I think I can follow that one, but it means being off flight following and call me Nervous Nelly, but I'd rather be with them as I go through. I can't find any other VFR transition route in that airspace, unlike over LAX.

Or is there an easier way of coming in on the east side without playing footsie with those mountains? poring over the chart, it seems like I can sort of thread it between those and the eastern edges of the Bravo at 3500 feet - is that true, or is the local topography prohibitive?

If you have experience in that area, what would you recommend?

 

[MAKG1]

Why do you need to be off flight following for a VFR transition through Class B? Usually, you have to utitlize the same approach frequency to get your clearance.

The LAX SFRA is an exception, but I'm not aware of any others like that.

Is this your first B transition? It's a whole lot easier than the local instructors suggest.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I think I have my route for my trip south planned as far as the LAX Bravo is concerned; basically, I intend to avoid it to the east



But flying into Brown field means I have to navigate through San Diego Bravo - which looks even crazier than the LAX Bravo, something I never imagined possible.



Of course, it's stressful enough to fly so close to the Mexico border - I can just imagine myself landing in Tijuana by mistake (damn, those two are close!), although hopefully between the 430 and Foreflight I'll be able to avoid that.



So if you live down there - what is my best bet? use the VFR transition route through the Bravo along the shore? I think I can follow that one, but it means being off flight following and call me Nervous Nelly, but I'd rather be with them as I go through. I can't find any other VFR transition route in that airspace, unlike over LAX.



Or is there an easier way of coming in on the east side without playing footsie with those mountains? poring over the chart, it seems like I can sort of thread it between those and the eastern edges of the Bravo at 3500 feet - is that true, or is the local topography prohibitive?



If you have experience in that area, what would you recommend?

For someone not familiar with the area, I'd recommend getting FLight Following from SoCal approach. As you approach San Diego, they will 9 times out of 10 clear you into the Bravo without you having to ask did it. With clearance through the Bravo, you can navigate to the Poggi VOR and then direct to SDM.

If you want the more scenic route and/or don't want to mess with ATC, there is a VFR corridor that goes over Lindbergh and down toward SDM that you can fly and it will spit you out right near the airport. All I have right now is Foreflight on my iPhone, but I seem to recall that the back side of the San Diego TAC has the details and the advisory freq for that corridor and the recommended N/S traffic flow and altitudes.

You can fly in from the east side by staying below the class B without talking to ATC, but I don't recommend that if you aren't familiar with the area.

 

[weirdjim]

So if you live down there - what is my best bet?

As you come down the shoreline from LA, you will be talking to SoCal Approach unless you are above 10K, and then it is LA Center. Either way, when you get around Oceanside (OCN VOR) they will hand you off to San Diego Approach (which is located at Miramar MCAS). They will ask you where you are going (unless SoCal gave them your handoff, and then they know) and you can either ask for clearance through the Bravo or they will just give it to you without asking.

Then it is beeline time for Brown. Don't worry about being able to distinguish between Tijuana International and Brown. You will see all the bulldozed lines and other dancing baloney we have made at the border to "catch" illegals, which is a little like cutting a strip out of your rug to catch errant cats. And every bit as effective.

Enjoy your trip.

Jim
.
.

 

[Fearless Tower]

As you come down the shoreline from LA, you will be talking to SoCal Approach unless you are above 10K, and then it is LA Center. Either way, when you get around Oceanside (OCN VOR) they will hand you off to San Diego Approach (which is located at Miramar MCAS).

Minor nit, but there is no 'San Diego Approach'. It is all SoCal Approach.

 

[docmirror]

This isn't a problem, but you are making it into one. Here's what I do coming from the north, and I rarely talk to anyone, but in this case it works well. I set Chino as a nav point on my GPS. From there mosey on pretty much south and descend east of Santa Ana class C, and descend down around 2000'. Fly just outside of San Onofre power plant, and stay offshore and out of the R2503 for Pendelton. Once you get to Oceanside, drop down as low as you want, and view the beach. Put KSAN on the GPS and head that way. Now, when you get near Mt Soledad(you can't miss it), tune in 126.05, and report your position. Pop up to 3500', get the current ATIS and angle left a bit so you go just west of MYF, and right over of KSAN. Fly right over the middle of KSAN, and then turn right a bit for Coronado bridge. You can't miss it. Once past the Coronado bridge, get the Brown ATIS, call em up, tell them you are passing Coronado in-bound for landing. If they give you the left runway, request the right with right traffic.

YMMV, pro driver close course, objects in mirror are larger, contents have settled, etc.

<edited to correct a location at KSAN>

 

[onwards]

Thank you everyone! I really appreciate the responses. A couple followups:

This isn't a problem, but you are making it into one.

Not my intent. I just like to ask questions for things I've never done before - like flying through those two fairly complex Bravos, or landing right next to an international border. It's part of my research (and appearing stupid to anyone is the least of my worries ). My flight is in one week, and I have spent the past two weeks grabbing every piece of info I can, and am now reaching to the community for further tips. I still consider myself a new pilot (~300 hours over ~4 years) and have TONS to learn. I could handle it myself, but if I can ask for and incorporate all this wonderful advice and fail to do that, I'd consider myself to have failed in my flight prep. My apologies though if I have not made that clear.

Also, thank you for the great tips in the rest of your post!

Why do you need to be off flight following for a VFR transition through Class B?

I wasn't clear enough in my post. As I was reading the San Diego TAC, that VFR transition route along the coast looks like the LAX SFRA to me, which means no ATC but rather using a common pre-designated frequency. Am I misunderstanding that?

Thus I was wondering if there was a more formal transition that did not involve getting off flight following.

Is this your first B transition?

No. I have transitioned successfully through SFO (3-4 times), LAS (once), and PHX (once) before. I went around LAX once too - people have told me so many horror stories about navigating it that I chose to avoid it entirely.

Another challenge in this flight is that I am stopping at KFUL en-route, but the chart seems to indicate I can still stay out of the LAX Bravo on the east and still do that successfully.

If you want the more scenic route and/or don't want to mess with ATC, there is a VFR corridor that goes over Lindbergh and down toward SDM that you can fly and it will spit you out right near the airport.

That's the point, actually - I don't want to avoid ATC I love ATC, it makes me feel safer to be on flight following, especially in busy areas. The challenge I was perceiving was that the published "route" through the SAN Bravo seems to require me to be off ATC - and I don't want that.

Don't worry about being able to distinguish between Tijuana International and Brown. You will see all the bulldozed lines and other dancing baloney we have made at the border to "catch" illegals, which is a little like cutting a strip out of your rug to catch errant cats. And every bit as effective.

I don't have a further comment to that, but it was hella funny!

 

[docmirror]

That's the point, actually - I don't want to avoid ATC I love ATC, it makes me feel safer to be on flight following, especially in busy areas. The challenge I was perceiving was that the published "route" through the SAN Bravo seems to require me to be off ATC - and I don't want that.

Well, if you get FF coming into the LA basin, just listen and follow label directions. They will guide you right to the tower at KFUL. Nice place, I used to stop there and visit my GF in Anaheim regularly. When you leave, if you get FF going down the coast tell them you are enroute to Brown, and they will tell you where to go and when. Prolly just about like I described in my post. Just pay attention and you can't go wrong. They will also strive to keep you out of Mexico should you wander southward.

 

[onwards]

Well, if you get FF coming into the LA basin, just listen and follow label directions. They will guide you right to the tower at KFUL.

Are you saying that there is a high likelihood that ATC will guide me through the LAX Bravo to KFUL on a late morning Monday? that would be wonderful (I follow directions very well), but I honestly wasn't expecting this to even be a possibility.

 

[docmirror]

Are you saying that there is a high likelihood that ATC will guide me through the LAX Bravo to KFUL on a late morning Monday? that would be wonderful (I follow directions very well), but I honestly wasn't expecting this to even be a possibility.

If you ask. Just call them up and ask for entry to the bravo to KFUL. They will either say yes, and give you a vector, or they will say no and advise 'remain clear...'. I'm not really the guy to advise on this cuz I never talk to them, but it's like any other service, time and space permitting. Some cases, they prefer you to be on their scope and radio cuz they can move you where they want. That seems to be the general plan in PHX for GA planes. Other places don't want anything to do with GA like KORD class B. I've found LA class B to be pretty helpful most of the time, so you have a good chance. If they say no, fly along the edge, and call back in 10 minutes and request again.

 

[Pilawt]

Before going to Fullerton, look at the Google Earth aerial view and get acquainted with the neighborhood. KFUL can be a bear to spot visually, especially on hazy days (I know, I learned to fly there in the '60s). The entire airport is only two blocks wide north-to-south, and it has a tendency to blend in with the jungle of warehouses and light-industrial buildings to the east.

 

[onwards]

Before going to Fullerton, look at the Google Earth aerial view and get acquainted with the neighborhood. KFUL can be a bear to spot visually, especially on hazy days (I know, I learned to fly there in the '60s). The entire airport is only two blocks wide north-to-south, and it has a tendency to blend in with the jungle of warehouses and light-industrial buildings to the east.

Oh wow, that's a fantastic tip, thank you!

 

[Fearless Tower]

That's the point, actually - I don't want to avoid ATC I love ATC, it makes me feel safer to be on flight following, especially in busy areas. The challenge I was perceiving was that the published "route" through the SAN Bravo seems to require me to be off ATC - and I don't want that.

Yes, the published VFR route is 'off ATC'. Sounds like the best thing for you is to stay with SoCal the whole way down. You'll have no problem getting into the Bravo and they will tell you where to go.

 

[Pilawt]

Oh wow, that's a fantastic tip, thank you!

At 3120' long (that's from fence to fence -- no overruns!) Fullerton is a tiny island of aviation in a very big city. But it's a great airport with a lot of history going back to 1927. You'll be amazed how much utilization they pack into a tiny space. Taxiing around it almost seems like a scale model of a real airport.

 

[onwards]

At 3120' long (that's from fence to fence -- no overruns!) Fullerton is a tiny island of aviation in a very big city. But it's a great airport with a lot of history going back to 1927. You'll be amazed how much utilization they pack into a tiny space. Taxiing around it almost seems like a scale model of a real airport.

I just looked it all up on Google Earth... looks like that green thing on top is like an arrow pointing straight at it - great potential visual cue.

And 3210'x75' is, like, uber-spacey considering I fly regularly into Harris Ranch for dinner

 

[Pilawt]

At KFUL watch out for the 747' MSL radio tower (KFI 640) two miles northwest of the airport. On the Google Map image I posted above it's just below and to the right of the label "Trojan Way" near the upper left corner. That tower snagged an inbound C-182 ten years ago.

 

[docmirror]

It now has a high intensity strobe. It just had a rather small beacon back then.

 

[eetrojan]

looks like that green thing on top is like an arrow pointing straight at it - great potential visual cue.

Great observation. I never noticed that...

 

[Shawn]

Are you saying that there is a high likelihood that ATC will guide me through the LAX Bravo to KFUL on a late morning Monday? that would be wonderful (I follow directions very well), but I honestly wasn't expecting this to even be a possibility.

Ummm, In my experience...not a chance. There are several published transition routes. The Big Bad Bravo is not really all that scary once you understand it. Look up the LA Terminal Area chart for all of the information on the routes...but study it and KNOW it.

On my first trip, I request the coastal route but then asked if that was the best route to KFUL and pretty much got chewed out for being unprepared...even though I WAS fully prepared for that route!

For KFUL, I use the Coastal Route at 5500' southbound. I so much prefer that over dodging surrounding airspace to the east.

 

[docmirror]

I just stay off the radio and go where I want, when I want. Every GA airport can be reached without class B. All of them. There's a reason for that. Maybe that makes me a bad person.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

All...first time reading this thread....regarding the VFR corridor through San Diego, I don't see it on Foreflight. I go through LAX Bravo all the time using the corridors and when I tap on Foreflight, they appear. No dice in San Diego. Am I missing something?

 

[luvflyin]

All...first time reading this thread....regarding the VFR corridor through San Diego, I don't see it on Foreflight. I go through LAX Bravo all the time using the corridors and when I tap on Foreflight, they appear. No dice in San Diego. Am I missing something?

Got foreflight here in my hand. It's there. Over KSAN is a dashed magenta line runnung north/south with arrows pointing up and down on either side. At the top of the dashed line is a megenta arrow that you follow back out to the west with the description of the VFR corrider.

 

[eetrojan]

All...first time reading this thread....regarding the VFR corridor through San Diego, I don't see it on Foreflight. I go through LAX Bravo all the time using the corridors and when I tap on Foreflight, they appear. No dice in San Diego. Am I missing something?

Do you have one of the "Bring chart to front" options selected under "More - Settings - Map Touch Action"?

As far as I can tell, if the Los Angeles Sectional has been brought "to front" with this setting, then ForeFlight will NOT automatically display the TAC when you zoom in on the sectional.

Unless I'm missing something, this behavior makes the "Bring chart to front" option more of a bug than a feature. Maybe there's a work around?

 

[arnoha]

Regarding KFUL, I've flown there a few times, and yeah, it's hard to spot. During the day, the 747' tower is also a problem. It's not hard to spot if you know what you're looking for, but if you don't, it's amazing what can blend into the background. The background around there is very noisy.

KSLI and KLGB have Delta spaces right next door. They're fine on the way in, but don't dawdle on your climb out. You'll be climbing right into the face of KSLI's Delta, so know where that boundary is. The other one to watch for is the Disneyland TFR, which is also right next door. That one is ugly since it extends into John Wayne's Charlie. You can fly through it with clearance, but be sure you're talking.

KLAX is weird in that the Bravo transitions are published. If you want to use one, be sure you know it. You'll ask for it by name and they'll assume you know what they're talking about when they reference it by name. They're not hard: All are straight shots or have just one kink. The SFRA is not hard to use, either.

(I actually like the published transitions. I wish the NorCal would publish the ones in the Bay Area. In particular the Oakland transition, since it's such a rapid series of instructions.)

At KSAN, it's not an SFRA. It's a VFR corridor. It's just Echo space between two Bravo shelves. You can keep Flight Following through it and you don't need a clearance. If you have two radios, keep one on 126.05. That's the advisory frequency for the corridor.

 

[Fatpat3]

getting through lax brovo is very simple. Somtimes socal is a little cranky, but they're that way with everyone when they are being like that. so dont let it bother you and just do what they tell you too. Its actually really easy to get through. KFUL is a pita to find sometimes. But look for the railroad tracks, its right near some and that might help a little. Other than that, you have a very simple route planned that ive flown a few dozen times without any issues. Just stay on with socal and they'll get you where you need to go!

 

[OrangeCountyAviation]

Request a transition through the SD bravo via Mission Bay (the VOR) and just follow their instructions. Class B airspace is really no big deal at all.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

All, first, thanks for the help on San Diego Bravo on Foreflight. I found the little arrows. Guess I was expecting it to look more like LA Bravo...with lots of arrows across longer distances. Instead, it's a couple of very small ones.

Word to the wise on LAX Bravo, as I use it all the time: 1) Stay right on the radials and 2) Even if you checked in, told them you are on the route (e.g., Coastal Route through the Bravo), you MUST hear the words "Cleared through the Bravo via" before entering Bravo. Sometimes these days, they talk to you all along the route, so it's easy to think they know and have cleared you through the Bravo. Not so.

 

[luvflyin]

Do you have one of the "Bring chart to front" options selected under "More - Settings - Map Touch Action"?

As far as I can tell, if the Los Angeles Sectional has been brought "to front" with this setting, then ForeFlight will NOT automatically display the TAC when you zoom in on the sectional.

Unless I'm missing something, this behavior makes the "Bring chart to front" option more of a bug than a feature. Maybe there's a work around?

I have bring chart to front with lgends. Yeah, it doesn't automatically change to the TAC when you get within a certain range like it did before. I know of no work arounds. I like the show legends part of it, so I leave it there.

 

[docmirror]

Just for more clarity, you may want to electronically flip the TAC over and use San Diego FLY chart on the other side. It has a bit more info on there but no terrain of course. I have no idea how/if this can be done in ForeFlight, or any other EFB.

 

[luvflyin]

Just for more clarity, you may want to electronically flip the TAC over and use San Diego FLY chart on the other side. It has a bit more info on there but no terrain of course. I have no idea how/if this can be done in ForeFlight, or any other EFB.

In Foreflight those are available in "Documents" as the San Diego TAC Supplemental and the San Diego FLY. I don't know of any way to access it directly from the Maps screen. They don't really provide any more information on the VFR Corridor than is what is on the TAC chart in Maps