RV panels are terrible

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Tmpendergrass

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Tmpendergrass
Not trying to start a flame war here but I have been looking for a nice used RV-6a/7a, or glasair sii ft. Most glasair I've seen have a very clean panel(nice 6pack, good radio stack). On the RV side it's common to see a lot of weird piece together stuff, Mismatched instruments, strange throttle controls, exposed wireing, etc. I even saw one with an iPad as a "PFD". I understand that most glasair IIs carry a slight price premium over RVs but the fit and finish of the equipment seems to be in another league.

Again not trying to start a flame war. I may just be being too picky.


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What part of EXPERIMENTAL and AMATEUR BUILT do you not understand :)
 
Tmpendergrass said:
Not trying to start a flame war here but I have been looking for a nice used RV-6a/7a, or glasair sii ft. Most glasair I've seen have a very clean panel(nice 6pack, good radio stack). On the RV side it's common to see a lot of weird piece together stuff, Mismatched instruments, strange throttle controls, exposed wireing, etc. I even saw one with an iPad as a "PFD". I understand that most glasair IIs carry a slight price premium over RVs but the fit and finish of the equipment seems to be in another league.

Again not trying to start a flame war. I may just be being too picky.


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Some of those airplanes are 20+ years old and have been through multiple panel updates without a full rebuild. That's how you do it if you'd rather fly with a somewhat mismatched panel than take the airplane down for weeks or months to rebuild the whole panel every time you upgrade something. My panel has made that kind of transformation over the years. It isn't as pretty as it was 12.5 years ago, but has a lot more functionality.

As far as exposed wiring is concerned, there are no hidden places to run wires from the front of the airplane to the back, so unless the builder went out of the norm in installing an interior over the sides of the footwells and over the front of the main spar, you're gonna see wires.
 
Aren't the panels delivered as a solid sheet of metal and equipped by each builder as he sees fit? Nothing o do with it being an RV or a Glasair.
 
I guess RV owners like to upgrade and tinker more than glasair owners.


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Most of the builders are VFR only types that never saw the wisdom behind a "standard" six pack instrument configuration.
 
Tmpendergrass said:
I guess RV owners like to upgrade and tinker more than glasair owners.


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Nothing to do with tinkering more...first, I'll say that the glasair is a lot tighter to work on the panel than an RV. Second, I think most glasair builders spend more time and money building and won't settle as much on their panel decisions. That said, I've seen several early Glasairs that have cobbled together panels. Probably second, third, or fourth owners of an unfinished kit and built on a budget. Definitely not related to the design as seems to be implied in the intitialy post.
 
Tmpendergrass said:
I guess RV owners like to upgrade and tinker more than glasair owners.


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Nothing to do with tinkering more...first, I'll say that the glasair is a lot tighter to work on the panel than an RV. Second, I think most glasair builders spend more time and money building and won't settle as much on their panel decisions. That said, I've seen several early Glasairs that have cobbled together panels. Probably second, third, or fourth owners of an unfinished kit and built on a budget. Definitely not related to the design as seems to be implied in the intitial post.
 
I have spent a lot time looking at RV's, and sale adds on RV's. I am flying my second and purchased both. I didn't want to spend 2 to 6+ years on a project when I could spend that time on flying so I decided to buy rather than build. There is a lot of RV's out there with state of the art panels and a lot that you wonder what was he thinking?
I wouldn't be afraid to buy one with a obsolete or poorly designed panel they are easy to replace. With the rate the equipment is evolving almost all of them are out dated RV and Glasair.
The main reason I went with a experimental is because the ability to buy and install Non TSO'd equipment.
They have a well designed and safe air frame, the rest you can change.
Here is the RV 8 panel the day I brought it home and after the 4th panel revision.



I did the same thing with my 10.
 
My -10 slow build started in Dec 2009 and finished Dec 2011. My gizmo mounted 496, 430W, dual GRT Horizon HX, Trutrak AP, 327 xpdr-non ads-b has all been superceded with just over 120 hrs. Someday mine will be remodeled and I probably won't replace the entire panel. Someone will also wonder what I was thinking. For my vfr only flying in an ifr equipped bird, my ipad/FF can do almost everything I need. I do like the redundancy though. Good luck in your search. Keep looking, there are plenty of heavier RV's out there. I like my 1654 lb EW with an IO-540.
 
All I can say is, welcome to buying used airplanes. A panel is often a very personal thing. Kind of like the paint jobs I see on a lot of RVs, I doubt I could stomach them either. Lots of people say there are lots of good, cheap RVs to be had right now. Now you know part of the reason why they're cheap.

I bought a vintage Mooney with it's original shotgun panel. I looked at many this way. I simply budgeted to get it the way I wanted. Sounds like you'll have to do the same with the RV. Good news is, it should cost you a lot less than it did me.

My panel before and after-
 

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Most folks building those things are low time private pilots.

I've had the same complaint with most exp planes, the panels are for chit.

That's why you buy one from a owner that NEEDS to sell, glass it and bada bing!
 
tecprotb said:
I have spent a lot time looking at RV's, and sale adds on RV's. I am flying my second and purchased both. I didn't want to spend 2 to 6+ years on a project when I could spend that time on flying so I decided to buy rather than build. There is a lot of RV's out there with state of the art panels and a lot that you wonder what was he thinking?
I wouldn't be afraid to buy one with a obsolete or poorly designed panel they are easy to replace. With the rate the equipment is evolving almost all of them are out dated RV and Glasair.
The main reason I went with a experimental is because the ability to buy and install Non TSO'd equipment.
They have a well designed and safe air frame, the rest you can change.
Here is the RV 8 panel the day I brought it home and after the 4th panel revision.



I did the same thing with my 10.
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What's with the panel mounted old handheld GPS?

If you don't mind me asking, how many hours and what your license??
 
These days it's stupid to buy your avionics at the beginning of the build, so nobody does. Then when it comes time to do the panel they have already spent 3 times what they budgeted for (building your own plane to save money is a huge joke) and are too broke to spend money on the panel so they cobble something together from the boneyard.
 
Thanks for the replays guys. I'm thinking I may need to quit looking for a pristine example and instead find a cheap but we'll build aircraft and put a G3X system and full interior in it.


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Dav8or said:
All I can say is, welcome to buying used airplanes. A panel is often a very personal thing. Kind of like the paint jobs I see on a lot of RVs, I doubt I could stomach them either. Lots of people say there are lots of good, cheap RVs to be had right now. Now you know part of the reason why they're cheap.

I bought a vintage Mooney with it's original shotgun panel. I looked at many this way. I simply budgeted to get it the way I wanted. Sounds like you'll have to do the same with the RV. Good news is, it should cost you a lot less than it did me.

My panel before and after-
Click to expand...

As a former C owner, I can heartily say "Nicely done!"
 
Tmpendergrass said:
Thanks for the replays guys. I'm thinking I may need to quit looking for a pristine example and instead find a cheap but we'll build aircraft and put a G3X system and full interior in it.


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LMBO

Dude you're missing the boat on half the reason to buy one of those planes.

You want glass and have a exp plane you can do WAY better for WAY cheaper.

DYNON-SKYVIEW2.jpg


SkyView-ADS-B-Weather.jpg


http://dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyView_intro.html

Just add a fall down altimeter, ASI, AI and you're set!
 
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Graueradler said:
Aren't the panels delivered as a solid sheet of metal and equipped by each builder as he sees fit? Nothing o do with it being an RV or a Glasair.
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Yes. You get a blank sheet of aluminum and zero directions (and zero instruments) - the instrument panel is entirely up to the individual builder. Everybody will do it differently.
 
LDJones said:
As a former C owner, I can heartily say "Nicely done!"
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Thanks! I love my panel now. I wish I had the coin to ditch the 430 and go for a 650, I also wish I could find a cheap used Sandel 3500, but I blew my wad for a while. The only thing realistically on the horizon is the addition of an AoA indicator that will go on top of the glare shield.
 
The panel on most planes, including experimentals, is structural and cannot be ripped out on a whim... You need to leave the perimeter and re-skin the face to safely re config the new lay out.... It is a lot of work .. but the end result is satisfying and safety related.. my hangar mate just redid his RV-6 panel using the Dynon stuff Chit guy posted pictures of... That synthetic vision technology is FANTASTIC........:yes::yes::yes:
 
My favorite panel of all time was in a one-seat one-off aircraft at Oshkosh. There was a little shelf that held a hand held transceiver and another that held the guy's phone.
 
steingar said:
My favorite panel of all time was in a one-seat one-off aircraft at Oshkosh. There was a little shelf that held a hand held transceiver and another that held the guy's phone.
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Nice. Those panels are not terrible, those panels are functional for the mission. You want to drive a submarine tape over the windows and install sub driving instruments. Buying an airplane with all that glass to fly around watching TV is silly.
 
Dav8or said:
I suspect this is very true. They do not know, what they do not know.
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I suspect you don't know much about the RV population of builders. There are 7000+ flying. Builders will run the gamut of experience, no different from any other type of experimental A/B. This thread just goes to show that folks love to bash things that become overwhelmingly big and popular.

bbchien said:
THIS!
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Oooh, RV stiffie time for Bruce.
 
Performance & price. Bells & whistles are low in my priorities for an aircraft. I'd take an anolog RV over some glass LSA any day.
 
Henning said:
These days it's stupid to buy your avionics at the beginning of the build, so nobody does. Then when it comes time to do the panel they have already spent 3 times what they budgeted for (building your own plane to save money is a huge joke) and are too broke to spend money on the panel so they cobble something together from the boneyard.
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A solid hit, followed by a clean miss. I love it when people who have never done it opine on home building.

Every builder I have encountered has a pretty good idea of what to budget for the engine and panel, which are the two really big ticket items other than the airframe itself. Everyone knows they'll go over budget by the time they're done (though certainly not as much as Henning seems to think). And yes, sometimes you have to make some compromises.

It used to be common to see RVs built with basic day-VFR panels, often using the pre-punched Van's panel, because that's the intended use for a lot of the airplanes. Any more the cost seems to be close to break-even to install glass in place of steam gauges, so those seem to be far more common now. Either way the panel is built to suit the individual builder and his or her mission. I've seen pictures of a few that had me shaking my head and wondering what the builder was thinking... I've also seen a lot of panels in factory built aircraft that look like hell.

With over 8,000 RVs flying now, there are going to be some train wrecks, especially some of the older planes that have been flown and modified for 20+ years. It's going to be a lot worse if you're shopping for bargains; if you find an RV for sale cheap, there's a reason it's cheap.
 
Here is a screen shot of a RNAV approach into a nearby airport, I programmed this before leaving the ground . Once I left the pattern at my airport all I did was push buttons and work the throttle. It's amazing what they are doing with the experimental avionics, it will fly itself all the way to the runway. Yes I can tape my windows closed and watch TV, I don't have to use it, and a lot of the time I don't but it is nice having the ability to. It has also helped to teach me situation awareness and made instrument training more enjoyable. You can't go wrong with either of the two mentioned here plus a few not mentioned. Garmin is spending a lot of time in the experimental world and have dropped their prices to compete, so we are getting a lot of the same technology going into the high dollar panels for a fraction of the cost.
 
I think one of the biggest reasons you see so many 'non-standard' panels in E/AB planes is because, compared to certified a/c, it is relatively simple and inexpensive to add/remove instruments to the panel. If people in the certified market could move stuff around in their panel as easily and inexpensively as the E/AB market, you would see 'shotgun' panels in the certified planes as well.

Add that to the fact that most people who actually build their planes are 'tinkerers' by nature (if they weren't tinkering with an airplane, they would be tinkering with something else), and you get some "ohhh.. I think I'll add a ______". Over several years of flying and lots of 'latest and greatest' instruments introduced, you eventually end up with a patchwork panel. For a lot of the RVs on the market, it's either 1.) The owner can't financially sustain an airplane anymore (this situation is independent of certified vs. E/AB markets) or 2.) The owner/builder is getting tired of 'tinkering' with this one and wants to start from scratch with a new kit. For situation #2, there will be a higher percentage of 'patchwork' panels than the rest of the fleet.
 
RoscoeT said:
I suspect you don't know much about the RV population of builders.
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What's there to know? When you assemble your own plane, you can make the panel any way you want. Some have experience and build a well thought out sophisticated panel. Some don't have experience, but follow the recommendations of others. Then there are those that just wing it. It is the latter I was referring to and I might add, it was not in any way meant to be RV specific.

This thread just goes to show that folks love to bash things that become overwhelmingly big and popular.
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Yep, I used to bash puppies when they first came out too. I told everyone how they would poop all over your rug, chew up your stuff and tear up your garden. It was great, but nobody listened and now everyone has one. I got bored, so I latched on to this RV thing. It seems there's lots of good bashing to be had!!:stirpot:
 
Dav8or said:
What's there to know? When you assemble your own plane, you can make the panel any way you want. Some have experience and build a well thought out sophisticated panel. Some don't have experience, but follow the recommendations of others. Then there are those that just wing it. It is the latter I was referring to and I might add, it was not in any way meant to be RV specific.
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Your attempt at diplomacy is disingenuous after you specifically piled onto this comment:

Most folks building those things [RVs] are low time private pilots.
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With:

Dav8or said:
I suspect this is very true. They do not know, what they do not know.
Click to expand...
 
Dav8or said:
Yep, I used to bash puppies when they first came out too. I told everyone how they would poop all over your rug, chew up your stuff and tear up your garden. It was great, but nobody listened and now everyone has one. I got bored, so I latched on to this RV thing. It seems there's lots of good bashing to be had!!:stirpot:
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Well, considering that you don't HAVE to let your puppy poop all over, chew up furniture and tear up your garden if you understand puppies... at least there is a common theme to your observations.

Maybe we should each pick one subject we don't know anything about and start making off the wall gross generalizations. That should be fun. :popcorn:

I see some of us have a head start.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Change that to "need", and I would agree with you.
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It's funny how Experimentals allow you to build the aircraft to suit your own needs. ;) So the RV-4 builder who wants a light, great-flying airplane for local day VFR flying and aerobatics is ignorant for not adding a 6-pack? I guess all those guys who built Pitts' without 6-packs are just ignoramus' as well. Some people here have some long ass noses to look down on.
 
RoscoeT said:
It's funny how Experimentals allow you to build the aircraft to suit your own needs. ;) So the RV-4 builder who wants a light, great-flying airplane for local day VFR flying and aerobatics is ignorant for not adding a 6-pack? I guess all those guys who built Pitts' without 6-packs are just ignoramus' as well. Some people here have some long ass noses to look down on.
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Nope, but he'd be missing the boat to not run full glass, that Dynon system I posted will serve as a full six-pack PLUS full engine instruments AND will cost less and weigh less and take up less space.

Another aspect for acro, the glass is solid state, no moving parts, hence you won't jack up your gyros like you will with analog DGs and AI etc. when yankin' and bankin'

SV-D1000-3-Screen.jpg
 
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