RV, Glassair, or ???

[Mafoo]

So both of these aircraft are right within my wants for an airplane.

Just curious what else fits in the same category as these two?

Two place side by side, acrobatic, fast, fuel efficient, and can be had for 75K or less.

 

[poadeleted20]

Which RV and which Glasair? Saying "RV or Glasair" is about like saying "Cessna or Piper." The one fundamental difference is that most RV's are all-metal while Glasairs are mostly composite. That had a lot of importance in terms of construction and maintenance.

 

[hindsight2020]

Rv-6/6A and glasair I are in the budget. You could probably find a lesser equipped 7/7a here and there for that kind of money.

I'm eagerly awaiting the RV-14 to start flying in numbers. My hope is that it will depress the 7 pricing and by proxy, the 6 pricing. Their current pricing is a little frothy IMO compared to Glasairs.

As to what compares? Not much really. T-18 and Mustang II. Too few in the market to be of any consequence. Even more rare if looking for trike versions. Maybe a Lancair 320 but at that point you're getting into retracts to which the Glasair I RG would be a comparable. more moving parts, more mx.

 

[Anymouse]

I'm particularly fond of the Tango. Finishing mine cost a bit more than than $75k, but that number is possible if you go VFR only, used engine, conventional prop and not so fancy interior.

For mine, I got a brand new out of the crate XP-360 and added a FADEC kit, composite constant speed prop, glass panel, fancy avionics, auto pilot, wig-wag landing lights and leather interior installed by Oregon Aero.

It makes a great cross country bird (180 KTAS burning ~8GPH @15,500). As far as acro is concerned, you could probably do loops and rolls, but the designer says not to do spins.

 

[Velocity173]

Get a Glasair II over the I. Three inch more of shoulder room and more docile handling with the longer wing. You still need to sit in one to see if you can fit. I'm 5'6" and it's snug for me in a I. My friend's RV-7 has much more room but I have him by about 5-7 kts in speed.

 

[Mafoo]

Which RV and which Glasair? Saying "RV or Glasair" is about like saying "Cessna or Piper." The one fundamental difference is that most RV's are all-metal while Glasairs are mostly composite. That had a lot of importance in terms of construction and maintenance.

RV 6/7 and Glasair II seem to be about that price range.

I can find several examples of each.

 

[kyleb]

One question about the Glassair. What's the parts availability and support?

One comparison you should take into account is the low end of the speed range. The RV is going to be much more capable and forgiving there if it is a factor.

As others have said, the Glassair should be faster and more efficient.

 

[Velocity173]

One question about the Glassair. What's the parts availability and support?

One comparison you should take into account is the low end of the speed range. The RV is going to be much more capable and forgiving there if it is a factor.

As others have said, the Glassair should be faster and more efficient.

If you get a Glasair II then support would be good since they still make them. Since the Chinese just bought them out I'm not sure how that'll affect things. Gotta realize also a composite homebuilt doesn't really require ordering many parts. My Glasair I has a Lycoming engine, Cleveland brakes, Goodyear tires. these things can be fixed just like any production plane. Misc hardware and instruments can be bought from Spruce or others. So really all you have to worry about is airframe stuff. If the airframe is damaged, well you get a composite guy to fix it.

RV support is still going to be better since there's so darn many of them. You can buy "plug and play" instrument panels and interiors. There are plenty of user groups out there too that you can join.

For a lot of people it's metal vs composite. Some have very strong opinions for why they chose metal or composite. For me I like the RVs but after weighing all the pros and cons, I decided composite was the way to go.

 

[Mafoo]

If you get a Glasair II then support would be good since they still make them. Since the Chinese just bought them out I'm not sure how that'll affect things. Gotta realize also a composite homebuilt doesn't really require ordering many parts. My Glasair I has a Lycoming engine, Cleveland brakes, Goodyear tires. these things can be fixed just like any production plane. Misc hardware and instruments can be bought from Spruce or others. So really all you have to worry about is airframe stuff. If the airframe is damaged, well you get a composite guy to fix it.

RV support is still going to be better since there's so darn many of them. You can buy "plug and play" instrument panels and interiors. There are plenty of user groups out there too that you can join.

For a lot of people it's metal vs composite. Some have very strong opinions for why they chose metal or composite. For me I like the RVs but after weighing all the pros and cons, I decided composite was the way to go.

Yea. As far as support, the mechanic will have to figure that out. I will use someone, and do nothing myself. This is way why I am looking for one already made. Not really the kind of guy who likes working on cars, so definitely am going to want to let the experts deal with the plane.

My local airport has a very nice shop. Already talked to the guy, and I like him. He works on all our training aircraft.

my reasons for liking composite over metal, is just that for one I am going to afford, it's going to be a little older. I figure it will hold up a little better.

And yea kyleb, the delta in stall speed is low 60's for the RV to mid 70's for the Glasair. The percentage of people who survive a crash at 65 knot vs 75 knots is 75% more.

So that is an issue, but not enough of one for me to make my choice just based on that.

 

[kyleb]

If you get a Glasair II then support would be good since they still make them.

I haven't noticed a factory presence with a Glasair (not Glastar) at OSH or SNF in several years and haven't noticed any print ad's either. I assumed they were out of business. Did they go out, then come back?

I remember the times when you couldn't pick up a Sport Aviation magazine without seeing a full page ad or two for Glasair.

 

[kyleb]

And yea kyleb, the delta in stall speed is low 60's for the RV to mid 70's for the Glasair. The percentage of people who survive a crash at 65 knot vs 75 knots is 75% more.

All of the side by side RV's stall at <60 mph at gross weight.

 

[Neal Howard]

Get the RV-6, and especially look for a slider canopy. The -6 is the most plentiful of the RVs and when it comes to support and maintenance, there's definitely "safety in numbers" in the marketplace. Anyone can work on them too. The Glasair I is more cramped and slower too. My hangar mate has one and wishes he had bought a -6 instead now. I'm thoroughly pleased with mine. I've only had it for a couple months and I love it.

BTW, mine stalls at 61 mph indicated, clean, and at 54-55 mph with flaps down. It gives good advance warning before the stall break either clean or dirty. Gotta love that hersheybar wing.

 

[Mafoo]

All of the side by side RV's stall at <60 mph at gross weight.

ops, I mean 50 vs 65. Not 60 vs 75. And the stat is 70%, not 75%. Should of spent the time to look it up.

The Glasair stalls at 63 to 73 mph depending on the model, and the RV at 50 mph.

The again, that statistic came from the RV site, but I doubt they are lying.

" In the event of an unavoidable crash landing, (engine failure over rough terrain, for instance) their low landing speed has been a real lifesaver. A crash at 50 mph is 70% more survivable than one at 65 mph."

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/rvkitpla.htm

 

[Mafoo]

Get the RV-6, and especially look for a slider canopy.

I have not spent time with one, so I don't know, but the slider looks like it makes it a lot harder to put luggage behind the seat.

What's the advantage of a slider (aside from the cool factor)? Also, does yours have ventilation in it? I have seen some videos where the owners jump out and are covered in sweat.

 

[Neal Howard]

I have not spent time with one, so I don't know, but the slider looks like it makes it a lot harder to put luggage behind the seat.

What's the advantage of a slider (aside from the cool factor)? Also, does yours have ventilation in it? I have seen some videos where the owners jump out and are covered in sweat.

That's why I recommend the slider over the tip-up canopy. Loading stuff in the back is no real problem with the slider. I had no issues loading way too much camping gear and other crap back there for my Oshkosh trip last month. In the air, ventilation is the same, but on the ground it's a big difference. Here in the Texas summer heat, a tip-up canopy is miserable. I can slide my canopy open while taxiing and be "cool" both the thermal and the appearance way. All the tip-ups leak rainwater all behind your instrument panel too. None of them have very good seals along the front edge but my slider stayed perfectly dry inside even when it poured down rain at Oshkosh.

 

[Velocity173]

Your stall numbers are a bit high. RV6 stall speed (gross) is listed as 55 mph or about 48 kts. Don't know how accurate those are compared to real world numbers. A Glasair II will stall (gross) anywhere from 63 KIAS to 55 KIAS depending on type flaps or wing extensions. My 1 FT with it's short little wing stalls right at the book speed of 56 KIAS.

You mentioned the comparision of stall speed and surviving a crash. Yes, these speeds make survivablity a bit less than a C-150. I think metal is a better structure for reducing the forces of impact as well. You have to look at the safety benefits of increased speed though. For instance, your climbing out in a C-150 at 65 kts and 600 fpm. Odds of you being able to get it back to the runway with an engine failure with those numbers would be slim. I climb out in a Glasair at 110 kts and 1300 fpm. That's a 55 kt difference between climb speed and stall speed! If my engine failed I could still zoom climb up with enough excess to get it back to the runway at most altitudes. I know because I've pulled it back to idle on climbout, slowed to my approach speed (not best glide) of 80 kts and easily made it back. At most airports I'm over 700 ' agl by the end of the runway. That opens up more possiblities than only being half that in other aircraft. Granted a C-150 has a better glide ratio but my excess speed and climb rate make up for it.

Another thing. There are plenty of go around accidents out there where pliots of a typical production aircraft attempted a go around at gross weight or with a crosswind. They don't exactly climb like a homesick angel. I did a go around the other day in the Glasair because I was going to land long. I applied power and was out of there in a hurry. Just another safety benefit of a light aircraft with moderate HP.

As I said to you before, there are draw back to homebuilts. The price you'll pay for an RV-6 or Glasair II will equal a nice Mooney, Arrow or Tiger. You have to ask yourself, does the all out performance of a homebuilt exceed the utility of a production?

 

[Velocity173]

I haven't noticed a factory presence with a Glasair (not Glastar) at OSH or SNF in several years and haven't noticed any print ad's either. I assumed they were out of business. Did they go out, then come back?

I remember the times when you couldn't pick up a Sport Aviation magazine without seeing a full page ad or two for Glasair.

I think they were on the brink of bankruptcy but the Chinese bought them out recently. Just like Mooney they've been in and out of business over the years. Hopefully with the buyout good things will come. It seems like Glastars are the only thing keeping them afloat these days.

 

[kyleb]

I have not spent time with one, so I don't know, but the slider looks like it makes it a lot harder to put luggage behind the seat.

What's the advantage of a slider (aside from the cool factor)? Also, does yours have ventilation in it? I have seen some videos where the owners jump out and are covered in sweat.

The slider keeps water out better. You can get plenty of ventilation on the ground with the canopy open. The tip-up gives you better visibility (no roll-over structure in front of the pilot). Working behind the panel of a slider sucks. The tip-up is easier.

All in all, it is probably a wash (and I built the slider).

My suggestion is to find a well built airplane with the equipment you need, and be happy with the canopy it has.

 

[Neal Howard]

Your stall numbers are a bit high. RV6 stall speed (gross) is listed as 55 mph or about 48 kts.

That's dirty stall speed, so my numbers are right on the book.

Another thing. There are plenty of go around accidents out there where pliots of a typical production aircraft attempted a go around at gross weight or with a crosswind. They don't exactly climb like a homesick angel. I did a go around the other day in the Glasair because I was going to land long. I applied power and was out of there in a hurry. Just another safety benefit of a light aircraft with moderate HP.

My RV-6 doesn't really climb worth crap with full flaps (40 degrees) in a go-around. You really need to retract to about 10 degrees as soon as you can, but I have a severely cruise-pitched prop too. It'll still climb safely enough with full flaps, but you should expect the climb rate of a fully loaded Cherokee 140 with full flaps and not the climb rate of a clean RV when doing that so as long as you're prepared for that it'll work ok.

As I said to you before, there are draw back to homebuilts. The price you'll pay for an RV-6 or Glasair II will equal a nice Mooney, Arrow or Tiger. You have to ask yourself, does the all out performance of a homebuilt exceed the utility of a production?

The freedom of being able to do all the work on it yourself, legally, plus being able to install whatever non-certified avionics you please (e.g. Dynon EFIS, TruTrak autopilots, etc) vastly offsets the FAA shackles imposed on a production aircraft IMHO.

 

[Geico266]

That's why I recommend the slider over the tip-up canopy. Loading stuff in the back is no real problem with the slider. I had no issues loading way too much camping gear and other crap back there for my Oshkosh trip last month. In the air, ventilation is the same, but on the ground it's a big difference. Here in the Texas summer heat, a tip-up canopy is miserable. I can slide my canopy open while taxiing and be "cool" both the thermal and the appearance way. All the tip-ups leak rainwater all behind your instrument panel too. None of them have very good seals along the front edge but my slider stayed perfectly dry inside even when it poured down rain at Oshkosh.

Ever try crawling under the panel of an RV slider to work on avionics?

Buy the tip up.

 

[Mafoo]

As I said to you before, there are draw back to homebuilts. The price you'll pay for an RV-6 or Glasair II will equal a nice Mooney, Arrow or Tiger. You have to ask yourself, does the all out performance of a homebuilt exceed the utility of a production?

My goal, is higher upfront sunk costs, and lower operational costs.

I want to have to come up with an excuse not to take the plane, as opposed to the other way around. If each time I touch it I feel like it's costing me several hundred bucks, I will be less inclined to fly it.

 

[Geico266]

My goal, is higher upfront sunk costs, and lower operational costs.

I want to have to come up with an excuse not to take the plane, as opposed to the other way around. If each time I touch it I feel like it's costing me several hundred bucks, I will be less inclined to fly it.

Look at replacement costs of parts, then buy the RV.

It really is a no brainer. Just ask me.

 

[Mafoo]

Look at replacement costs of parts, then buy the RV.

It really is a no brainer. Just ask me.

haha, thanks. Well between the two, I am strongly leaning towards the RV anyway. I like the composite, but so many more RV's to chose from.

The real point of this post however was not to make it an RV vs Glasair thing, but to learn if there are any other aircraft out there in the same class.

 

[Neal Howard]

Ever try crawling under the panel of an RV slider to work on avionics?

Yep, numerous times on friends' RVs and my own. It's not really so bad if you pull the seats out and lay down some cushions so you can lay on your back with your legs back in the baggage area. It's about the same as it was working on my old Cherokee.

But a tip-up does have an advantage for some of the panel work, but not all. Depending on exactly what you're doing, you may still have to pull the seats on a tip-up and lay down underneath the panel. I helped a buddy install an autopilot and a new GPS in his tip-up RV-6 and I still had to crawl upside down under the panel.

 

[Geico266]

haha, thanks. Well between the two, I am strongly leaning towards the RV anyway. I like the composite, but so many more RV's to chose from.

The real point of this post however was not to make it an RV vs Glasair thing, but to learn if there are any other aircraft out there in the same class.

Look at the numbers of RV's flying. There is nothing in it's class. Period. End of conversation. Unless you just like to waste time posting instead of flying.

Why reinvent the wheel?

Buy an RV, join the club.

 

[Neal Howard]

My goal, is higher upfront sunk costs, and lower operational costs.

If I want to fly cheap, I throttle my RV-6 back to 2100 rpm and still go 140-150 mph sipping fuel. The difference between 140 mph and 160 mph is just a flick of the throttle and 200 more rpms and a bit more fuel burn. Firewalled and leaned to peak rpm in cruise I get 195 mph at 8.9 gph and at altitude with cool outside air temps and some ballast in the baggage compartment to get the cg a little further aft, I've even seen 200 mph TAS in level cruise

 

[Velocity173]

haha, thanks. Well between the two, I am strongly leaning towards the RV anyway. I like the composite, but so many more RV's to chose from.

The real point of this post however was not to make it an RV vs Glasair thing, but to learn if there are any other aircraft out there in the same class.

Nope. Not in kit form and with the criteria that you want. Tango was mentioned earlier but just not enough of them around to choose from. Good plane though and the XR with a range (2100 sm) that can easily out last your bladder.

Got a few plans built to look at. T-18 Thorp- Heard it's kinda squirrely though on the controls. Sidewinder-never heard anything about them. Of course the canards but it seems you're not big on them.

Oh yeah, one more draw back to most homebuilts we've talked about. They have an annoying habit of not wanting to slow down in the pattern.

 

[Neal Howard]

Oh yeah, one more draw back to most homebuilts we've talked about. They have an annoying habit of not wanting to slow down in the pattern.

I always slow all the way down to 120 mph before entering the pattern

(and it feels like I'm crawling....and I'm probably sharing the pattern with a Breezy and a Piper Navajo twin all at the same time)

 

[Velocity173]

I always slow all the way down to 120 mph before entering the pattern

(and it feels like I'm crawling)

Yeah, and that takes careful planning just to slow it down to that speed. Saw 3 RV-4s come into the overhead today doing around 160. They looked good! Of course the overhead shouldn't be done at uncontrolled fields. :wink2:

 

[Neal Howard]

If the RV has a CS prop, it'll slow down big time when you pull the power back. I had the pleasure of putting about 100 hours on a buddy's RV-8 with almost 200hp and a Hartzell BA CS prop and it would go from 150 to 90 almost instantly. My fixed-pitch prop does take a bit of time to slow down, but it's not too bad. I can pull the power abeam the numbers and be down to 100 mph in flap range just about the time I'm ready to turn base.

 

[Mafoo]

Look at the numbers of RV's flying. There is nothing in it's class. Period. End of conversation. Unless you just like to waste time posting instead of flying.

Why reinvent the wheel?

Buy an RV, join the club.

haha, well this guy looks inviting I must say. But as had been pointed out, good luck finding one.

http://www.teamtangoaircraft.com/site/our-aircraft/tango-2/

As for flying... Did 2 hours training today. Going to do two more tomorrow, so I am very happy with my time usage at the moment!

 

[Neal Howard]

The Tango-2 does indeed have some good numbers, and the 44" wide cabin is very appealing... but you likely won't find any used ones for sale. It'd cost about 80-90K to build one and at that price range I'd rather build the new RV-14 ("bubba-sized" RV-7) even if it does only come in a tip-up canopy.

BTW, I got my RV-6 for 60K and it only had 250 hours TTAFE so basically it was like brand new.

 

[dell30rb]

I'm particularly fond of the Tango. Finishing mine cost a bit more than than $75k, but that number is possible if you go VFR only, used engine, conventional prop and not so fancy interior.

For mine, I got a brand new out of the crate XP-360 and added a FADEC kit, composite constant speed prop, glass panel, fancy avionics, auto pilot, wig-wag landing lights and leather interior installed by Oregon Aero.

It makes a great cross country bird (180 KTAS burning ~8GPH @15,500). As far as acro is concerned, you could probably do loops and rolls, but the designer says not to do spins.

I love the design of the Tango. When are we going flying (you are in NC a good bit right?)

 

[Mafoo]

BTW, I got my RV-6 for 60K and it only had 250 hours TTAFE so basically it was like brand new.

This is what I am hoping to do as well. Glad you love it!

 

[yakdriver]

I just sold my RV7 last month. I have flown around 20 different RVs and most flew great with a couple of clinkers (older RV 6s before matched hole tooling). Get a 7 with a parallel valve 180hp C/S prop. Solid 180kt cruise on less than 10gph. Has 200lb more usefull load than a 6 and also 6 more gallons of gas. Mine was easy to work on the back of the panel because I had Dynon flat screens that came out and the switches and breakers were on pull out panels. Get a slider as the tip up is a hothouse in the summer and a big sail when it is windy. Stall speed with full flaps on mine was 51mph. You can find a nice 7 for around $75,000. I don't think the 14 will harm the prices much as it is a lot more expensive to buy.
I have flown a Glassair FTW and it doesn't fly nearly as nice as an RV. Higher stall speed and only marginally faster than my 7. Cockpit was more cramped and it had less useful load. Also build quality can vary tremendously.

 

[Mafoo]

I just sold my RV7 last month. I have flown around 20 different RVs and most flew great with a couple of clinkers (older RV 6s before matched hole tooling). Get a 7 with a parallel valve 180hp C/S prop. Solid 180kt cruise on less than 10gph. Has 200lb more usefull load than a 6 and also 6 more gallons of gas. Mine was easy to work on the back of the panel because I had Dynon flat screens that came out and the switches and breakers were on pull out panels. Get a slider as the tip up is a hothouse in the summer and a big sail when it is windy. Stall speed with full flaps on mine was 51mph. You can find a nice 7 for around $75,000. I don't think the 14 will harm the prices much as it is a lot more expensive to buy.
I have flown a Glassair FTW and it doesn't fly nearly as nice as an RV. Higher stall speed and only marginally faster than my 7. Cockpit was more cramped and it had less useful load. Also build quality can vary tremendously.

Thanks for this great info. Really helpful.

 

[EvilEagle]

Sounds like I'm one of the few people that have owned a Glasair. I had a 1 FT. It is cramped, it is fiberglass (no storing outside in the sun), there is a potential for crappy craftsmanship. However, it is cheaper, it is at least as fast (similarly equipped), and they are cool little airplanes. I bought mine to commute. I got it for less than 50k, where any decent RV6 was going to cost me at least 60-65 at the time. I was putting 7.5 hours a week on it just going to work, so that $10-15k was a LOT of avgas over the two years that I owned it.

I'm 6' and about 230 so it was cramped in there, but I did fly with guys nearly as big as me a few times. Not something I want to do a long trip in, but it can be done. The Glasair's useful load seemed to be a bit better too IIRC. (maybe I just told myself that?)

It always seems to come back to the mission. What's yours? Mine was single seat flying 80% of the time, so the Glasair was a no brainer for me. That 10-15k came in handy. I would've loved to have a bit more room and a slider canopy though - but the gullwings are still better than a tip-up!

 

[EvilEagle]

Double post...

 

[Mafoo]

It always seems to come back to the mission. What's yours?

Most of the time it will be my wife and I taking weekend trips. I live in New Hampshire, so the number of places we can get to in a few hours is huge.

Also 4-6 times a year I will be going to Minnesota. So about 1000nm trip. 2-3 of those times, my wife will be with me.

We also have a place availably in Datona FL that I can see going to once or twice a year with my wife.

And of course if I end up getting one, OSH

 

[Anymouse]

I love the design of the Tango. When are we going flying (you are in NC a good bit right?)

I'm going to need to burn off some fuel in September.