RV -6 kit

Tom-D

Tom-D

Taxi to Parking
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Feb 23, 2005
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Tom-D
What would you charge to assemble the kit?
Right now there is nothing but the kit.

If I charge my Standard rate, I think it would be way more than the aircraft would be worth.
Would you flat rate it at $______ ?

Or by the hour at $____ ?

I really would like to do it, but don't want to scare away the owner, But I won't do it for free either.
 
@Tom-D - Do you care that it is illegal to do this?

you could buy the kit and sell it for market value when flying and out of phase 2. but your current question == nope, can't be done.
 
Not exactly illegal. Just can't be registered as Experimental-Amateur Built in the US if he does assemble it for money. It would make a dandy wind vane, or something. Or maybe it could be exported somewhere. Telling the DAR it was amateur built, that would be illegal.
 
@Tom-D You've posted threads like this before, so you should know the opinions you will get here. The responses won't change, because the rules haven't changed, except for light sport planes.

If you want to build kits for money, why not build the ELSA kits? Like an RV-12?
You avoid all the issues of whether an experimental plane is amateur or professionally built, because you can assemble ELSAs for money.
Although the ELSA category does not permit builders to alter the design (no unapproved engines, propellers, avionics, etc. are allowed) it does have some attractive features. In the ELSA category, there is no “51%” rule, and no restriction on who may assist in building the airplane. This allows any amount of assistance or even a fully professionally-built airplane.
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https://www.vansaircraft.com/rv-12is/

KitPlanes also had an article recently about this; @weirdjim may be able to find it quickly. It said the same as what was quoted above from Van's Aircraft.

Since an RV-6 isn't an ELSA, you can't do what you propose.
 
Are you going to only build 49.9999% of it?
 
An RV-6 is a 2,000 hour project, minimum. If you charged $10/hour, it might be worthwhile economically for the owner assuming s/he wants to resell the airplane for what s/he has in it. Above that cost/hour, it isn't economically viable for the owner.

Legalities aside, it ain't worth your time unless it'll be your airplane or if the owner doesn't worry about market value.

- RV-6 owner/builder...
 
Not true guys, the owner can get assistance, and still be legal as E/AB.
 
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av...media/amateur-built_arc_final_report_2006.pdf

The Committee disagreed on how to calculate the work done by the amateur builder, the kit manufacturer, or the commercial builder to determine if the aircraft meets major portion the requirements of 21.191(g). Most industry ARC members continue to support the existing dual check system, primarily out of concern for potentially negative economic impacts. When using the duel check system, the both the kit manufacturer and amateur-builder take equal credit on the Form 8000-38 regardless of how much work either performs. An extreme example is the fabrication and assembly of an advanced composite fuselage structure. The amateur builder may only sand finish rough edges, yet the amateur-builder would take equal credit for the entire fabrication and assembly process.
 
...also look at programs like Glasair's Two Weeks To Taxi Program: You spend two week in their factory and leave with a flying aircraft. Perfectly legal, even though the majority of the actual work was done by their staff.
 
Tom, all you can do is quote a price for so many hours and see what the owner wants to to. Bottom line is what do you value your time at? If the owner can live with it, you are good to go. But as others have said, the owner needs to be involved significantly with the process.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
You asked how much to assemble. Are you going to be assembling or assisting?
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as of now assisting.
here from the AC 20-27G
(2) Identifying Which Items Can Be Installed Using Commercial Assistance. You may get unlimited commercial assistance for non-checklist items on a kit evaluated by the FAA. A non-checklist item is a task or process that is not listed on the Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (2009). These items also include painting and the installation of interior upholstery or avionics. Such a task or process would not be required to be personally completed by the amateur builder for the aircraft to receive an airworthiness certificate under § 21.191(g). Other non-checklist items include fabrication of engines, propellers, wheels and brake assemblies, and standard aircraft hardware.
 
Next question.
Why would I be considered a commercial entity
 
DaleB said:
Yes, as you would also be if the owner were to pay you to build his kit.
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Interesting question, what makes one a commercial builder?
 
Another data point. The 2000 hour estimate is actual building hours. You will spend that much time again sourcing parts, researching next steps, making changes, fixing mistakes, yada, yada, yada...
 
Building for someone else, for compensation, not for your own educationor recreation. Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR), part 21, section 21.191(g), defines an amateur-built aircraft as an aircraft "the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by person(s) who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation."
Tom-D said:
Interesting question, what makes one a commercial builder?
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Tom-D said:
Next question.
Why would I be considered a commercial entity
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I'm sure I'll regret making the attempt here but... because you're going to be charging the client money for providing builder assistance? Am I missing something here?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
I'm sure I'll regret making the attempt here but... because you're going to be charging the client money for providing builder assistance? Am I missing something here?
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Depends on the how one goes about the builder assistance.

One model is to provide build space, tools, and provide skills workshops. Usually, a certain level of mentoring and technical review of work is included.

Beyond that, it can be arranged for certain more complex work to be sub-contracted out.

Reputable entities will not wholesale construct, but like anything, it occurs.

Nothing prevents an E-AB constructor from sub-contracting work though, it may result in a denial of the repair man’s certificate.
 
TCABM said:
Depends on the how one goes about the builder assistance.

One model is to provide build space, tools, and provide skills workshops. Usually, a certain level of mentoring and technical review of work is included.

Beyond that, it can be arranged for certain more complex work to be sub-contracted out.

Reputable entities will not wholesale construct, but like anything, it occurs.

Nothing prevents an E-AB constructor from sub-contracting work though, it may result in a denial of the repair man’s certificate.
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Actually there is, if the dar or fed that does the inspection feels that the majority was not built by someone for educational or recreational purposes, and the work you do is for monitary purposes, he can deny to issue an EAB certificate. But you’ve been told all this before and will not accept that you cannot build kits for money.
 
unsafervguy said:
Actually there is, if the dar or fed that does the inspection feels that the majority was not built by someone for educational or recreational purposes, and the work you do is for monitary purposes, he can deny to issue an EAB certificate. But you’ve been told all this before and will not accept that you cannot build kits for money.
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That’s not the spirit of the post I made.

I’m saying a builder can subcontract some of the work, they can lease space, they can pay for advice, skills workshops etc. while building the kit.

And I agree, assembling a kit for someone else, outside of an approved quick build program, isn’t allowed.

And I’m sure there’s plenty cases where someone buys a QB kit, crate motor/prop combo, pre-cut panel, avionics quick kit and loom, interior kit, and pays for a wrap or paint job that don’t get an AWC.
 
There are tons of people out there building RV kits just to sell so there has to be some level of profit. Don't think it would be substantial but enough to give someone who is retired something to do and cover some expenses.

Considering a new factory built airplane would run someone around 200k I would think staying within that area would be a market. Some people want a modern fast airplane but have no desire to build one.
 
Grum.Man said:
There are tons of people out there building RV kits just to sell so there has to be some level of profit. Don't think it would be substantial but enough to give someone who is retired something to do and cover some expenses.

Considering a new factory built airplane would run someone around 200k I would think staying within that area would be a market. Some people want a modern fast airplane but have no desire to build one.
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Your right, but the legal way to do it is the person buys the kit, builds it, then sells it. Someone else buying it and paying them to build it does not meet the rules.
 
Well then..

I'll just buy it.
 
DaleB said:
Yes, as you would also be if the owner were to pay you to build his kit.
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I'm not building his kit. I would only be assembling a few riveted assemblies.
 
Tom-

There are a number of commercial companies who offer 'builders assistance'. Most of these require the 'builder' to come to their facility where they get 'assistance' on putting the parts together. On the RV-6 kit planes a builder could essentially pay someone to bring it up to quick build status (Fuselage 80% done, Wings 99% done). I wouldn't assume the DAR would even blink an eye at that. On my paperwork I specified that I had a quick build RV-10.

They don't offer a QB option on the RV-6 but they do on the RV-7 which is similar in nature for an $11,175 up charge. Put about $1800 for shipping (savings) and a decent ball park number to bring it to this stage would be $13K. If I had to take a shot in the dark I would say a professional, or someone who has built an RV before could do this in maybe 600 to 800 hours. The remaining 51% as people keep pointing out is sucked up by the rest of the kits; empennage, finishing kit, firewall forward and final assembly. Then you have the engine, avionics and interior installation. Knowing the time-sink I got into with all these I would guess you would spend at least another 600 - 800 hours doing these for an RV-6.

So in the end I would give the owner the a la carte option. $13K or more to bring it up to the QB status. $2K to build the tail-cone. The rest I have no clue on, would probably be in the owners best interest to participate in that so he can answer any questions the DAR has on the building process or what was done and why. For the naysayers I have yet to hear of any case where an Airworthiness Certificate was denied because the DAR felt it wasn't 51% amateur built. I have however heard of one case where the 'builder' had some issues getting the repairman cert because the FSDO felt he didn't build the plane.
 
OkieAviator said:
Tom-

There are a number of commercial companies who offer 'builders assistance'. Most of these require the 'builder' to come to their facility where they get 'assistance' on putting the parts together. On the RV-6 kit planes a builder could essentially pay someone to bring it up to quick build status (Fuselage 80% done, Wings 99% done). I wouldn't assume the DAR would even blink an eye at that. On my paperwork I specified that I had a quick build RV-10.

They don't offer a QB option on the RV-6 but they do on the RV-7 which is similar in nature for an $11,175 up charge. Put about $1800 for shipping (savings) and a decent ball park number to bring it to this stage would be $13K. If I had to take a shot in the dark I would say a professional, or someone who has built an RV before could do this in maybe 600 to 800 hours. The remaining 51% as people keep pointing out is sucked up by the rest of the kits; empennage, finishing kit, firewall forward and final assembly. Then you have the engine, avionics and interior installation. Knowing the time-sink I got into with all these I would guess you would spend at least another 600 - 800 hours doing these for an RV-6.

So in the end I would give the owner the a la carte option. $13K or more to bring it up to the QB status. $2K to build the tail-cone. The rest I have no clue on, would probably be in the owners best interest to participate in that so he can answer any questions the DAR has on the building process or what was done and why. For the naysayers I have yet to hear of any case where an Airworthiness Certificate was denied because the DAR felt it wasn't 51% amateur built. I have however heard of one case where the 'builder' had some issues getting the repairman cert because the FSDO felt he didn't build the plane.
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Thanks, but I don't want to build this whole aircraft. The owner asked what I would charge to do the riveting.
I believe it is no different than, painting the aircraft, and that is contracted all the time.
 
Is the owner going to prep, debur and dimple the parts? If it’s literally bucking and squeezing rivets only, that would defiantly be a per the hour bit. A lot of hours.... sorry can’t help you with the rate on that. I personally would have paid someone $25/hr to help me.
 
That’s about 16,000 rivets @Tom-D. The -6 isn’t a punched kit, either. As mentioned, it’s not simply bucking.
 
TCABM said:
That’s about 16,000 rivets @tom. The -6 isn’t a punched kit, either. As mentioned, it’s not simply bucking the rivet.
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I estimated between 12k and 14k back in the day. There's a lot of jigging and double checking alignment before you drill the first hole.
 
The RV-6 kits are not pre-punched, so you'll need to build jigs to assemble a lot of stuff. I'd put it a > 2000 man hours. The pre-punch kits, like the -7 and -8 are around 2000 hours, depending on builder experience. Lots of builder assists folks out there and it is done all the time. EAB must be 51% built by amateurs. An A&P is an amateur. I've helped several finish their projects by providing assistance with the wiring of all the avionics, just as I did my own as an A&P.

Have the owner print the build manual and initial/date each step as it is completed. The DAR won't blink an eye.

If I were throwing a number out to help build a -6, it'd be in the 20-40k range, depending on how much help the owner needs.
 
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If an A&P is an amateur, then who would the FAA consider to be a professional when it comes to the 51% rule?
 
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