RV -6 kit

Juliet Hotel said:
That doesn't really clarify at all why you believe that an A&P being paid to build a kit qualifies that aircraft as 'has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation.'.
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those who undertake these projects can and do obtain help. major phases of these projects do get contracted out to those with the tools and equipment to do the job correctly.

and if you believe driving 16k rivets doesn't require special tools, try doing each one by hand..:)
 
The 51% "rule" only applies to whether the kit which is offered for sale is not so completely prefabricated and assembled as to only require some minimal amount of completion. A builder of an approved kit does not have to personally build 51% of the aircraft. The approved kit has already gotten the FAA's blessing that however the materials included in the kit become an airplane, it qualifies as Experimental Amateur Built provided the builder of record is doing it for educational purposes and not merely for profit. If the FAA decides that an individual applying for the repairman's certificate for an airframe hasn't enough experience/knowledge of how that aircraft was built, the faa can refuse that individual's application for the repairman's certificate. There's no 51% test for a repairman's certificate.
 
IMO the qualifications of the builder has absolutely no bearing on E-AB certification in the eyes of the FAA since education and recreation have nothing do with experience. I believe it's about whether there's obvious intent to enter into production which would normally require a production certificate. I think this is the distinction between "professional" vs "amateur". Those that provide builder assist are listed as such on the 3180-12 (Eligibility Statement Amateur-Built Aircraft) in addition to the names of the "actual" builders that's part of every E-AB AWC submission. The builder has to apply AC 20-27G to determine if that assistance crosses the major portion (AKA 51%) line regardless of what the people who provide said assistance might say. What about a serial builder? I'd say that's covered by the "recreation" part of the E-AB criteria and aren't trying to loop hole the production certificate issue. Admittedly this is potentially a "gray" area but I'm of the mind the FAA watches this pretty close since the days of the "overt" hired gun builder operations.
 
Witmo said:
The 51% "rule" only applies to whether the kit which is offered for sale is not so completely prefabricated and assembled as to only require some minimal amount of completion. A builder of an approved kit does not have to personally build 51% of the aircraft. The approved kit has already gotten the FAA's blessing that however the materials included in the kit become an airplane, it qualifies as Experimental Amateur Built provided the builder of record is doing it for educational purposes and not merely for profit. If the FAA decides that an individual applying for the repairman's certificate for an airframe hasn't enough experience/knowledge of how that aircraft was built, the faa can refuse that individual's application for the repairman's certificate. There's no 51% test for a repairman's certificate.
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I would quibble that the NKET 51% approved list assumes little to no commercial assistance and I believe (but might be mistaken) that both AC 20-27 and FAA Order 8130.2 provide a caution that too much commercial assistance can potentially push a given kit over the line. Now that's my interpretation and I'm by no means an expert. I know that the well known builder's assist programs, like Glastar's 2-weeks to Taxi program have been examined by the FAA and blessed off. As a result, my advice to potential builders would be to stick to the known and avoid the unknowns.
 
Tom-D said:
those who undertake these projects can and do obtain help. major phases of these projects do get contracted out to those with the tools and equipment to do the job correctly.

and if you believe driving 16k rivets doesn't require special tools, try doing each one by hand..:)
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I'm aware. I believe paint interior and engines are areas of kit construction that have been specifically mentioned. Stands to reason there are also other areas not specifically mentioned. I'm also aware that builder assist facilities are nothing new, the Sportsman 2-weeks to taxi program being one, various builder course/empanage clinics being others. Though I haven't done any of those, everything I've read on them seems to indicate the owner still does the lion share of the work while the professionals provide guidance, prep tools and jigs and otherwise provide a 2nd set of hands when needed. I'm sure the professionals also do a far amount of fabrication and installation themselves. But the idea of builder assist is to, well, assist. As opposed to 'someone wants me to build their kit, what would you charge?'.

And some of the responses in this thread seem to be saying oh no, if you want to buy a kit and then hire an A&P to build it to your liking and you just show up when its done so they can hand over the keys, that's a-ok with the FAA and people do it all the time. If that is true, this is something I wasn't aware of previously. And if its true, you kind of have to admit to does make it a bit hard to wrap your head around how that could satisfy the requirement that the person building the plane did so solely for their own education and recreation.
 
Raymo said:
It answers the requirements for building an EAB. I know most won't read it; they prefer misinformation from forums.
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I've read every word. There is nothing in there sheds any light on why you believe the FAA considers an A&P building a kit for profit to be an amateur.
 
tsts4 said:
I would quibble that the NKET 51% approved list assumes little to no commercial assistance and I believe (but might be mistaken) that both AC 20-27 and FAA Order 8130.2 provide a caution that too much commercial assistance can potentially push a given kit over the line. Now that's my interpretation and I'm by no means an expert. I know that the well known builder's assist programs, like Glastar's 2-weeks to Taxi program have been examined by the FAA and blessed off. As a result, my advice to potential builders would be to stick to the known and avoid the unknowns.
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It has been noted that the FAA generally doesn't look too closely at "professional builders" unless some poor pilot comes to grief. Perhaps they realize that a pro builder is likely to produce better work than "first-time Sam"?
 
Tom-D said:
What would you charge to assemble the kit?
Right now there is nothing but the kit.

If I charge my Standard rate, I think it would be way more than the aircraft would be worth.
Would you flat rate it at $______ ?

Or by the hour at $____ ?

I really would like to do it, but don't want to scare away the owner, But I won't do it for free either.
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Yet again you ask a question that only you and your potential customer can answer.
 
Tom-D said:
U2, Conversations on this page do evolve
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Seems like your real question is what is always evolving in your threads.
 
Tom-D said:
I wish you would learn to read.
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Only you and your potential customer know what they are willing to work for or willing to pay. What I am willing to work for, or pay is 100% irrelevant to you and your customer.
 
Salty said:
Only you and your potential customer know what they are willing to work for or willing to pay. What I am willing to work for, or pay is 100% irrelevant to you and your customer.
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Then why did you even enter the thread in the first place?
 
Tom-D said:
Because I as curious, were you?
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I’m curious about what you’re curious about. Have you figured out what you’re really asking yet, or are you still “drifting”?
 
Salty said:
I’m curious about what you’re curious about. Have you figured out what you’re really asking yet, or are you still “drifting”?
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now you are simply posting to increase your numbers
 
Tom, I have been doing builder assist for several years. I charge a shop rate of $60hr and everything is time and materials. Never had any problems at inspection time. I think the attitude of the FAA and DARs is changing as they would rather see a well built airplane rather than quibble over who did the build. Look at what the FAA allows Cub Crafters to do. The owner goes over there for a couple of weeks and "makes" 51% of the parts then CC completely assembles the airplane through flying off the phase 1 period and hands the owner his airplane along with the Repairman Certificate. I think it is total BS especially the owner getting the RC when most of them don't know anything about the airplane. But then again if they allow that we should be able to help a kitbuilder get his airplane done. It is a grey area that for the last few years the FAA has been looking the other way
 
yakdriver said:
Look at what the FAA allows Cub Crafters to do. The owner goes over there for a couple of weeks and "makes" 51% of the parts then CC completely assembles the airplane through flying off the phase 1 period and hands the owner his airplane along with the Repairman Certificate. I think it is total BS especially the owner getting the RC when most of them don't know anything about the airplane.
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Agreed. That the FAA allows them an airworthiness cert is one thing. But that they also grant a repairman's cert seems over the line and not in line with the spirit of the regs.
 
What's it worth?

I'll throw out $15 an hour. I figure I'd value my time at $5/hour doing the work myself and you'd do it about 3 times faster. So it's worth $15 an hour to me.

Yeah, I'm pulling those numbers out of thin air. If you want more money, justify it with faster time. Trouble is, if you've never done it, you have no idea how fast you can put together a kit or how fast I can do it.
 
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