Runway Sideslip Drill?

Good job Eddie despite the detractors and naysayers. I can say from experience that to do this drill back and forth smoothly in a fluid like dance with absolutely zero heading deviation takes some practice, it's not as easy as it sounds and it's a darn good coordination exercise.

I really don't know what this argument has morphed into in it's present form but this statement is what originally got me into it:

whifferdill said:
...It is physically impossible to move an airplane "laterally" through the air at a constant heading. It is only possible to turn the airplane, which causes your heading to change.
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Clearly we should all be in agreement at this time that that statement is false.

I explained in the previous thread why I am not able to go up and make a video at this time but as soon as I can I will and I'm going to do it like this:

I am going to enter a side slip while keeping my heading (what you see on my compass) steady. You will clearly see, as you did in Eddie's video, that my ground track has altered in the direction of the slip. You are going to see this by the track indication on my Garmin 296. You are also going to see that the needle in my turn indicator remains in the vertical position indicating that I have not and am not turning. I'm going to hold that slip for a period of time during which maybe I'll have a snack and I want you all to note that my heading and altered ground track are going to remain constant and the turn indicator needle is going to remain vertical. I will then return the controls to neutral while still maintaining the same heading and you will note that my side slip ceases and my ground track returns to the direction it was prior to initiating the slip and that the turn indicator needle remains vertical.

After posting this video we will watch to see what nit-picky, hair splitting issue this argument can manage to morph itself into. :rolleyes:
 
vintage cessna said:
No such nonsense back then?
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Nope, he uses 'sideslip' to describe the type of slip used for both losing altitude and aligning for a x-wind. If I was aviation king, I'd purge the forward slip and side slip nonsense from the lexicon and just say 'slip'. :) Think of the internet bandwidth that would be freed up...
 
Side slip - no heading change
Forward slip - no track change
 
Silvaire said:
I am going to enter a side slip while keeping my heading (what you see on my compass) steady. You will clearly see, as you did in Eddie's video, that my ground track has altered in the direction of the slip. You are going to see this by the track indication on my Garmin 296. You are also going to see that the needle in my turn indicator remains in the vertical position indicating that I have not and am not turning. I'm going to hold that slip for a period of time during which maybe I'll have a snack and I want you all to note that my heading and altered ground track are going to remain constant and the turn indicator needle is going to remain vertical. I will then return the controls to neutral while still maintaining the same heading and you will note that my side slip ceases and my ground track returns to the direction it was prior to initiating the slip and that the turn indicator needle remains vertical.
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You still don't understand that to hold your heading constant as you return the airplane to the original ground track CANNOT be done simply by neutralizing the controls. You will need to manipulate the rudder and ailerons in a slipping turn the other way. You WILL learn this, I guarantee. No sense in you keeping it up until you try it. I have. I'm going to take another video that you Three Amigos will discount, of course.
 
Silvaire said:
Side slip - no heading change
Forward slip - no track change
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Who the hell enters this 'side slip' to land without changing their heading? How many pilots do you know who typically set up at an angle to the runway and then slip without without changing their heading as if to replicate that runway drill? It can be done, but again, why? That is not what pilots refer to when they say "sideslip" to land. They put in the slip to lose altitude without changing their ground track, but do move the nose. You have an unusual slip to land technique. Same thing when doing a "forward slip" in a x-wind. Transitioning from crab to slip, you move the nose, but not the ground track. You have failed again to make a lucid point.
 
Silvaire said:
Side slip - no heading change
Forward slip - no track change
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Ah, well, not quite. Not if you think you touch down in a sideslip after crabbing up to the runway in a crosswind (I do).

A better one would be:
Side slip - heading same direction as ground reference
Forward slip - heading NOT the same direction as ground reference​
dtuuri
 
Silvaire said:
Okay, okay wiff the rate gyro in the turn indicator cannot lie and will settle that argument one way or the other.

Agreed?
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Couldn't tell you. I've never owned a plane with gyros. It's so dead nuts simple... Set up a slip as steep as possible (only to maximize the ability to see what's happening) with your flight path angled to the runway, nose on runway heading and then neutralize the controls. That means simultaneously center the ailerons and rudder. Then tell us where your nose is pointed and and how you're tracking. Stop hacking away at the keyboard and just do it.
 
dtuuri said:
Ah, well, not quite. Not if you think you touch down in a sideslip after crabbing up to the runway in a crosswind (I do).

A better one would be:
Side slip - heading same direction as ground reference
Forward slip - heading NOT the same direction as ground reference​
dtuuri
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Hey I agree w/ dtuuri... only it's the 'forward' slip that most people seem to refer to as the nose is aligned with the ground reference (runway), as with a x-wind landing. Though I never tried very hard to remember what people think is which. You'll never hear me utter 'forward' or 'side' in front of 'slip'. :)
 
whifferdill said:
Who the hell enters this 'side slip' to land without changing their heading? How many pilots do you know who typically set up at an angle to the runway and then slip without without changing their heading as if to replicate that runway drill? It can be done, but again, why? That is not what pilots refer to when they say "sideslip" to land. They put in the slip to lose altitude without changing their ground track, but do move the nose. You have an unusual slip to land technique. Same thing when doing a "forward slip" in a x-wind. Transitioning from crab to slip, you move the nose, but not the ground track. You have failed again to make a lucid point.
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Your posts continue to indicate a profound lack of understanding and erroneous conclusions. Maybe that is why your instructor didn't bother to review the difference between a side and forward slip with you.:yes:
 
whifferdill said:
Who the hell enters this 'side slip' to land without changing their heading? ...
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You talk about a slip as if it's an ON-OFF switch. You can increase and decrease the slip rate, if you couldn't do that then it would only be possible to land in a crosswind of one specific speed.

When you are doing a forward slip and you want to increase the slip rate what do you do? You kick the nose farther off track (change heading) and lower the forward wing. If you want to increase the side slip in a crosswind you do the exact same thing but your heading doesn't change, you keep the nose aligned with the runway.

What is this obsession in denying the fundamental differences between the two? They aren't aerodynamic differences, it's all about heading and track.
 
Two Amigos - again I ask - who as standard practice enters a slip to land without changing their heading, as if to replicate that runway drill? That's your definition of a 'side slip'. I understand what you're describing, but nobody lands like that as SOP. My instructor never taught me to land this way, and I've never seen anyone else do this during training. My airport has tons of training activity and lots of different instructors. We clearly have pilots filling the skies who have massive gaps in their skills. ;)

If you made a poll thread asking pilots what a side slip is, you will see a different definition.
 
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dtuuri said:
Ah, well, not quite. Not if you think you touch down in a sideslip after crabbing up to the runway in a crosswind (I do).

A better one would be:
Side slip - heading same direction as ground reference
Forward slip - heading NOT the same direction as ground reference​
dtuuri
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That is better. What I meant is that when in the side slip as you increase or decrease (modulate) the slip rate your heading does not change whereas in the forward slip it does.
 
whifferdill said:
to hold your heading constant as you return the airplane to the original ground track CANNOT be done simply by neutralizing the controls.
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Who cares? The sideslip drill diagram doesn't say anything about neutralizing the controls. Furthermore, the left half of the diagram you posted regarding the forward slip and sideslip shows that the controls are neutralized after the slip is removed by the pilot, not by itself. I don't think anyone here would try to argue that neutralizing the controls will cause the airplane to magically roll back to wings level. You seem to be making a straw-man argument.
 
Silvaire said:
What is this obsession in denying the fundamental differences between the two? They aren't aerodynamic differences, it's all about heading and track.
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More spin and reading failure. I never denied the difference in the way people consider them. But your post 203 failed miserably at describing how the vast majority of pilots think of the difference. You said side slip = no heading change. You're the first person I've heard of who thinks of it that way. For most everyone else, both slips have you move the nose and maintain your flight path before and after the slip input. One has the airplane aligned with the runway, and the other not. Which is which, who the hell cares.
 
whifferdill said:
Two Amigos - again I ask - who as standard practice enters a slip to land without changing their heading, as if to replicate that runway drill? That's your definition of a 'side slip'...
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I am talking about when you are in a side slip. If the crosswind increases what do you do? Do you make two turns? No, you increase (modulate) your slip rate without changing your heading, you keep the nose aligned with the runway and you eliminate the drift.

At least that's how I do it.

Edit: re-read #212
 
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whifferdill said:
Two Amigos - again I ask - who as standard practice enters a slip to land without changing their heading, as if to replicate that runway drill? That's your definition of a 'side slip'. I understand what you're describing, but nobody lands like that as SOP. My instructor never taught me to land this way, and I've never seen anyone else do this during training. My airport has tons of training activity and lots of different instructors. We clearly have pilots filling the skies who have massive gaps in their skills. ;)

If you made a poll thread asking pilots what a side slip is, you will see a different definition.
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No one I know would as a standard practice enter a slip to land without changing their heading as if to replicate the runway drill.

Everyone I know would attempt to start and remain centerline on final. They would crab or side slip to maintain centerline in a crosswind. If crabbing, they would at some point enter a side slip, that is maintain centerline by matching their heading to RWY alignment. The side slip would prevent drift while at the same time keeping the longitudinal axis of the airplane aligned with the Rwy.
 
As Langeweiche said, a side slip to the left in a crosswind from the left, would move the plane through the air to the left while preventing the aircraft from moving WITH the wind to the right.
 
dmspilot said:
The sideslip drill diagram doesn't say anything about neutralizing the controls.
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Addressed in post 106. Not going to repeat myself.

dmspilot said:
Furthermore, the left half of the diagram you posted regarding the forward slip and sideslip shows that the controls are neutralized after the slip is removed by the pilot, not by itself. I don't think anyone here would try to argue that neutralizing the controls will cause the airplane to magically roll back to wings level. You seem to be making a straw-man argument.
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You mean argue against? This post doesn't really make much sense.
 
whifferdill said:
Addressed in post 106. Not going to repeat myself.
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Again you are trying to make an argument that neutralizing the controls does not change the flight path. The diagram does not say it does. You are therefore making a straw-man argument.

whifferdill said:
You mean argue against?
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No. I meant it as it was written.

The behavior of the airplane after the controls are neutralized will depend upon its lateral and directional stability characteristics. It shouldn't be generalized.
 
dmspilot said:
No. I meant it as it was written.
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So nobody here will say that an airplane has a good chance at returning to wings level when the controls are neutralized from a slip? Seriously? :confused: What kind of airplanes do YOU fly?

Great poll thread, BTW: Yes or no - an airplane will likely return to wings level when slip inputs are neutralized. :rolleyes: Not much left in this thread but incoherence. Time for me to jump off this crazy train.
 
Wiffy, Langeweiche says a side slip to the left in a crosswind from the left ( bank bit no change of heading) will move the airplane THROUGH the air to the left, while preventing the airplane moving right WITH the wind.

A Forward slip ( heading changes) will NOT move the airplane to the left ( or right) and will not prevent the airplane from moving WITH the wind.

If you don't study the differences between a side slip and a forward slip you will never get it. Just becuase they are aerodynamically the same doesn't mean they produce the same flight path.
 
Oopsie...one last thing. I just realized the FAA calls 'side' slip the one that you use to land in x-wind. Not that it matters to me or this discussion. I told you I can never remember this nonsense.

Silvaire said a 'side' slip involves no heading change. Well whenever I've crabbed down final and then entered a 'side slip' to land, the heading changes. I still don't know anyone who tries to do that constant heading runway 'side slip drill' type of angled maneuvering to land.

dmspilot said:
Airplanes with strong directional stability and weak dihedral effect.
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Aerobatic airplanes have very weak dihedral effect. I've always found them to end up in wings level flight upon neutralizing slip controls. Maybe my experience is unique, though.
 
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whifferdill said:
So nobody here will say that an airplane has a good chance at returning to wings level when the controls are neutralized from a slip? Seriously? :confused: What kind of airplanes do YOU fly?

Great poll thread, BTW: Yes or no - an airplane will likely return to wings level when slip inputs are neutralized. :rolleyes: Not much left in this thread but incoherence. Time for me to jump off this crazy train.
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I come out of slip by releasing pressure on the rudder therby returning it to 0 deflection and moving the stick to place the ailerons to 0 deflection. I suppose you would claim I am somehow making a turn becuase I moved the stick.
 
Silvaire said:
Side slip - no heading change
Forward slip - no track change
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I'm quoting my own post to clarify as it is probably too truncated for everyone to understand. So here is the same statement with a few extra qualifications:

When in a side slip the objective is to maintain your heading while altering your ground track. (no heading change)

When in a forward slip the objective is to maintain your ground track while altering your heading. (no track change)

I think that pretty much sums it up.
 
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vintage cessna said:
I come out of slip by releasing pressure on the rudder therby returning it to 0 deflection and moving the stick to place the ailerons to 0 deflection. I suppose you would claim I am somehow making a turn becuase I moved the stick.
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If you removed the rudder first, you sure as hell did turn a little - until you got the stick back to center. That's what a slipping turn is - not enough rudder for the amount of aileron input. I guess I'm wacked on that too. You fellas have been real entertaining. But sorry - I'm out.
 
whifferdill said:
Oopsie...one last thing. I just realized the FAA calls 'side' slip the one that you use to land in x-wind. Not that it matters to me or this discussion. I told you I can never remember this nonsense.

Silvaire said a 'side' slip involves no heading change. Well whenever I've crabbed down final and then entered a 'side slip' to land, the heading changes. I still don't know anyone who tries to do that constant heading runway 'side slip drill' type of angled maneuvering to land.



Aerobatic airplanes have very weak dihedral effect. I've always found them to end up in wings level flight upon neutralizing slip controls. Maybe my experience is unique, though.
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Why the F&$* do you have it in your head people would approach to land angled to the RWY like in the drill? The drill is just a coordination exercise, not a technique for landing.
 
whifferdill said:
Aerobatic airplanes have very weak dihedral effect. I've always found them to end up in wings level flight upon neutralizing slip controls. Maybe my experience is unique, though.
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Well the tail on the Pitts is a tiny stub so it must have very weak directional stability as well.
 
Henning said:
the angle of the flight aircraft to the flight path has to change with the flight path
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Who the hell could come up with a logical argument to gibberish like this? Maybe you are right but I wouldn't know it with such poor use of english.
 
whifferdill said:
Oopsie...one last thing. I just realized the FAA calls 'side' slip the one that you use to land in x-wind. Not that it matters to me or this discussion. I told you I can never remember this nonsense.

Silvaire said a 'side' slip involves no heading change. Well whenever I've crabbed down final and then entered a 'side slip' to land, the heading changes. I still don't know anyone who tries to do that constant heading runway 'side slip drill' type of angled maneuvering to land.



Aerobatic airplanes have very weak dihedral effect. I've always found them to end up in wings level flight upon neutralizing slip controls. Maybe my experience is unique, though.
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Re the 2nd paragraph. Naturally your heading changes when going from a crab to a slip. Are you implying that contradicts what Silvaire said about no heading change with a side slip?
 
Maintain heading with rudder and control drift with aileron is all we need to know to land without side loading.

Fully grasping the physics is another matter.

Primary issues that prevent grasping are:

1) you can turn up to ~15* while maintaining the runway heading
2) you fly and drift along with the air mass until you touch down
3) you cannot fly sideways but it sure looks like it, you are flying relative to the moving air mass but you are seeing this portion of the flight relative to the ground.
 
CharlieTango said:
Maintain heading with rudder and control drift with aileron is all we need to know to land without side loading.

Fully grasping the physics is another matter.

Primary issues that prevent grasping are:

1) you can turn up to ~15* while maintaining the runway heading
2) you fly and drift along with the air mass until you touch down
3) you cannot fly sideways but it sure looks like it, you are flying relative to the moving air mass but you are seeing this portion of the flight relative to the ground.
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You can YAW ~15° while maintaining runway heading, you can't turn at all.
 
FastEddieB said:
Hence the confusion.

If you yaw, by definition you will not be maintaining runway heading.

I think what you meant is either runway track, bearing or course.
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Heading is a coordinated reference to the inertia of the aircraft, one you uncoordinate the turn the nose no longer points down the heading.
 
It makes no sense to say that you can YAW while maintaining runway heading. Heading is where the nose is pointed so by yawing you are, first and foremost, NOT maintaining your heading, you are changing it.

In a side slip you are maintaining your heading (keeping it aligned with the runway) and altering your ground track. Some are saying that by transitioning from a crab to a side slip on final in a crosswind you are not altering your track but in fact you are because you would not be on that track with your nose pointed in that direction if you weren't altering it with the side slip.

Now, as you are on short final, in a side slip with nose and track matching the runway, the crosswind may increase, decrease, change direction or even cease and you are able to maintain that track by altering it with your controls in the slip. If you weren't altering your track it would change because you are attached to the air, not the ground.

You do this manipulation to keep your track constant with the side slip, you don't make turns.
 
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