Runway Sideslip Drill?

whifferdill said:
No to both. This thread was about that slip drill diagram as drawn. Can't be more concise and clear about this than post # 74.
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Alright, I reread post #74 and see what the issue is. Seems a bit like splitting hairs, but okay.
 
whifferdill said:
Post 74 says the same thing as Post 1, only in far fewer words for those with short attention spans. ;)
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It would seem the main point you are trying to make is that an aircraft can not move side ways through the air like depicted in the diagram. That to get from one flight path to another requires a curved movement as in a turn. If that is correct than I think I have summed up the issue of the thread.

If your other point is the instantaneous change, then I would agree that wouldn't happen due to inertia. But I would assume the author of the illustration wasn't trying to emphasize that aspect, only the aspect that you don't understand.
 
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Silvaire said:
If after watching the King video you still stand by that statement then there isn't anything that I can do about it. I don't think it's semantics, it's something else. :dunno:
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If we were sitting together and I had an airplane model to move and show what I'm talking about, and how I feel that slip drill is inaccurately drawn (and described on that drawing), I think I could get you to understand what I'm talking about, and how I'm thinking about "lateral movement". But I cannot do that, and continuing to write is not going to help reach mutual understanding. I do think it's semantics and thinking of "sideways" movement differently.
 
I'll give you all of that wiff but your quoted statement that:

It is physically impossible to move an airplane "laterally" through the air at a constant heading
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I can't give you that and that is what brought me into the discussion to begin with.
 
vintage cessna said:
It would seem the main point you are trying to make is that an aircraft can not move side ways through the air like depicted in the diagram. That to get from one flight path to another requires a curved movement as in a turn. If that is correct than I think I have summed up the issue of the thread.
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You are correct, but that is only part 1. Part 2 is that you cannot simply "neutralize the controls" and redirect your flight path a second time, back on track, as described in the picture.

I guess we went around the world to [hopefully] agree that the slip drill could be accomplished with the same flight path changes drawn, nose basically on heading, but with a corrected description of how to move the controls to accomplish this. This may seem like splitting hairs, but verbatim, that drawing and description defy the laws of physics as I understand them. I do not feel this thread I started is very important, I just wanted some input on that picture and wanted to try to understand how others were thinking about it.
 
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Silvaire said:
I can't give you that and that is what brought me into the discussion to begin with.
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I don't expect that at this point. We are still thinking of the term differently, even if we both correctly grasp physics. But the "part 2" of my post 86 above is impossible for me to chalk up to semantics.
 
whifferdill said:
You are correct, but that is only part 1. Part 2 is that you cannot simply "neutralize the controls" and redirect your flight path a second time, back on track, as described in the picture.

I guess we went around the world to [hopefully] agree that the slip drill could be accomplished with the same flight path changes drawn, but with a corrected description of how to move the controls to accomplish this. This may seem like splitting hairs, but verbatim, that drawing and description defy the laws of physics as I understand them. I hope we have solved this important problem. I do not feel this thread I started is very important, I just wanted some input on that picture and wanted to try to understand how others were thinking about it.
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If you are holding a slip on a constant heading ( no wind) the aircraft will displace from its' track in the direction of bank, and then when coming out of the slip , if done skillfully without changing you heading, the aircrafts longitudinal axis will remain parralel to the centerline. At that time the aircraft will continue displacing left a certain amount due to inertia. But once inertia is overcome the aircraft will track parralell to the centerline. The only thing the diagram doesn't depict is the continud displacement due to intertia. If you were performing the side to side drill you would need to anticipate the inertia and come out of the slip before reaching one side or the other. If you didn't, I would expect that if you neutralized the controls as you reached the boundary of one side, you would miss your mark and cross the boundary, same as needing to roll out of a turn early to roll out on a specific heading.

I already know you disagree with this, becuase as you stated in post 1, to move from one flight path to another requires a turn or curved flight path. The diagram does not show a curved flight path, so you believe it to be inaccurate.
 
whifferdill said:
... But the "part 2" of my post 86 above is impossible for me to chalk up to semantics.
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I think "splitting hairs" is an appropriate term for what you are doing. I'm going to go back to the opening post:

whifferdill said:
...So looking back at the picture below, it shows the airplane starting in coordinated flight, fuselage aligned with the flight path, and then "side slipping" to the left along a straight, but diagonal flight path, moving the airplane laterally to the left. Then it shows a point at which "controls are neutralized", and boom - the airplane returns to the original flight path, in coordinated flight, just displaced a bit to the left. Never in my short 13 years of flying have I neutralized slip inputs to find the airplane's flight path instantaneously redirected as a result of removing the slip.
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But wiff, look closely at the picture you attached. Although you have it in quotes the words "controls are neutralized" do not appear anywhere in the text of that diagram. The only thing it says is: "the rudder inputs simply keep the long axis parallel with the selected road" You come out of the slip just like you went into it.

You also continually harp to the fact that you have never approached to land this way. Do you understand why it is referred to as a "drill"? It's an exercise to develop smooth cross control coordination and I'm going to state right now that it's a very good one. Another one is to carve a smiley face with the nose in left to right forward slips while maintaining track along a road.

I mean, you don't do departure stalls other than to practice them right? There's no practical use for the maneuver.
 
vintage cessna said:
If you are holding a slip on a constant heading ( no wind) the aircraft will displace from its' track in the direction of bank, and then when coming out of the slip , if done skillfully without changing you heading, the aircrafts longitudinal axis will remain parralel to the centerline. At that time the aircraft will continue displacing left a certain amount due to inertia. But once inertia is overcome the aircraft will track parralell to the centerline.
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I don't disagree with this, never have. I'm saying that you cannot redirect the flight path while keeping the nose on heading simply by "neutralizing the controls". You would need to manipulate the ailerons and rudder to accomplish this. If you simply "neutralize" as described on the drawing, you will exit the slip, but continue flying coordinated along that flight path angled to the runway. The picture shows the airplane returning to the runway tracking flight path.
 
whifferdill said:
You are correct, but that is only part 1. Part 2 is that you cannot simply "neutralize the controls" and redirect your flight path a second time, back on track, as described in the picture.

I guess we went around the world to [hopefully] agree that the slip drill could be accomplished with the same flight path changes drawn, nose basically on heading, but with a corrected description of how to move the controls to accomplish this. This may seem like splitting hairs, but verbatim, that drawing and description defy the laws of physics as I understand them. I do not feel this thread I started is very important, I just wanted some input on that picture and wanted to try to understand how others were thinking about it.
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I have not misunderstood you, becuase you have said the same things repeatedly in this thread and the other thread. And that is, to get the airplane to change flight paths you actualy have to manipulate the controls in way to actualy start turning the airplane. It may not be much of a control movement, but it has to be done. And this subtle movement has to be done becuase it is physically impossible for an airplane to move sideways through the air.
 
whifferdill said:
I don't disagree with this, never have. I'm saying that you cannot redirect the flight path while keeping the nose on heading simply by "neutralizing the controls". You would need to manipulate the ailerons and rudder to accomplish this. If you simply "neutralize" as described on the drawing, you will exit the slip, but continue flying coordinated along that flight path angled to the runway. The picture shows the airplane returning to the runway tracking flight path.
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Are you talking about the smaller picture on the right? I thought that depicted the aircraft then slipping to the right as part of the side to side drill.
 
Silvaire said:
But wiff, look closely at the picture you attached. Although you have it in quotes the words "controls are neutralized" do not appear anywhere in the text of that diagram.
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Are we looking at the same picture?? The picture in post #1 has a text box at the top that reads, "controls are neutralized". That box points to the moment in the 'sideslip' where the flight path changes back to tracking the runway. It's the exact same thing depicted to the right, in the 'slip drill' back and forth movements.

Silvaire said:
I mean, you don't do departure stalls other than to practice them right? There's no practical use for the maneuver.
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I do WAY more things in airplanes than most pilots will ever do, few of which have any practical use. Believe me, I have much interest in stick and rudder skills of the sake of stick and rudder skills. I've just never been intrigued by this slip drill. I don't think it does anything to improve slipping skills. I also don't think drawing boxes or circles on the horizon with the nose teaches slipping skills - it's just an exercise for the sake of the exercise. Nothing wrong with doing that stuff, though.
 
Silvaire said:
But it doesn't say that on the drawing :rolleyes:
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We made the assumption that the aircraft depicted was slipping left and then slipping right, becuase that is how you would conduct the drill. He thought it was uncommanded movement back to the right.
 
vintage cessna said:
We made the assumption that the aircraft depicted was slipping left and then slipping right, becuase that is how you would conduct the drill. He thought it was uncommanded movement back to the right.
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There may be more to the text portion than was displayed. So Wifft, to answer your question about what is wrong with the diagram. Nothing. It is just missing a text portion.
 
dtuuri said:
Nobody else seems to be getting through either.

dtuuri
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Yep, the three amigos from the density altitude thread that everybody else quit trying to have a discussion with. ;) Henning gets it, Rotordude gets it. Many others from that other thread got it, but they jumped ship after Charlie Tango's posts kept coming. Though he did eventually see things differently. After that, the thread went in a different direction, and nobody saw a point in trying to continue a discussion with those left standing - the three amigos - you, Silvaire, and retro. This thread is like deja vu. :)
 
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If you hold a balanced slip, you will progress forward in a straight line regardless how much aileron and rudder you have in, you can vary between more and less and your flight path will remain ahead. If you unbalance the slip and create lateral motion, if you drew the ground track path of the aircraft, it would be represented with a curve. You would be making turning path. "The Drill" as described and drawn above is trying to demonstrate that the plane is being shifted laterally by the slip, when that is not what is occurring. It is just making uncoordinated S turns.
 
When I practice a forward slip at altitude with my instructor, at the end of the maneuver don't I neutralize the controls and continue a straight-line forward path?
 
Okay. I just did two low passes and hopefully the GoPro caught them. Going flying now with the wife when I get back home I'll see what I came up with.

As an aside, the snow sure is purty!

And as an aside to an aside that yaw string worked pretty well, but the pitch string maybe a little less so.
 
asechrest said:
When I practice a forward slip at altitude with my instructor, at the end of the maneuver don't I neutralize the controls and continue a straight-line forward path?
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You sure has hell do. But that is different from the 'drill', which shows flight path changes, and "controls neutralized" as redirecting the flight path.
 
whifferdill said:
:confused: What?? Can you be articulate?
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The text is associated with the large picture on the left. The picture on the right is not meant to be associated with the picture or text on the left. The picture on the left shows a side slip to the left and the text explains it.

The picture on the right shows the drill, slipping slipping left and than slipping right. The text that explains the drill, slipping left and then right is missing. Who ever cut and pasted it left it out.

The picture on the right is not meant to depict what happens after you neutralize the controls after slipping left. If the text for the picture on the right was not missing, it would be obvious. Hence your confusion.
 
vintage cessna said:
The picture on the right is not meant to depict what happens after you neutralize the controls after slipping left. If the text for the picture on the right was not missing, it would be obvious. Hence your confusion.
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The picture on the LEFT shows the airplane starting in a flight path straight ahead. Then it shows a redirected flight path to the left, in a slip. Then it shows "controls are neutralized", redirecting the flight path back again. This forward, angled, and back forward flight path is the exact same thing shown in the 'runway drill' on the right. Where is the confusion?
 
whifferdill said:
You sure has hell do. But that is different from the 'drill', which shows flight path changes, and "controls neutralized" as redirecting the flight path.
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OK, so maybe I'm starting to get what you're saying. Maybe you're saying that a simple neutralizing of the controls at the end of a slip will maintain the same flight path over the ground, and you hold issue with the diagram because, at least in one instance, it indicates that neutralizing the controls will allow a change in flight path.
 
asechrest said:
OK, so maybe I'm starting to get what you're saying. Maybe you're saying that a simple neutralizing of the controls at the end of a slip will maintain the same flight path over the ground, and you hold issue with the diagram because, at least in one instance, it indicates that neutralizing the controls will allow a change in flight path.
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You got it.
 
whifferdill said:
The picture on the LEFT shows the airplane starting in a flight path straight ahead. Then it shows a redirected flight path to the left, in a slip. Then it shows "controls are neutralized", redirecting the flight path back again. This forward, angled, and back forward flight path is the exact same thing shown in the 'runway drill' on the right. Where is the confusion?
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I think it's time to give up, people are just not understanding the difference of what 'the drill' is stating.
 
asechrest said:
OK, seems an easy test, then: from a slip, can you neutralize the controls into a changed flight path over the ground.

That being said, the drill still seems worthwhile.
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Exactly, start in a straight line down the runway, put in a slip that moves you to the right side of the runway. Let go of the slip. Tell us what direction you are pointing. "The Drill" will have you pointing straight down the right side of the runway. Wifferdill and I say you will be pointing off to the right of the runway.
 
Henning said:
Exactly, start in a straight line down the runway, put in a slip that moves you to the right side of the runway. Let go of the slip. Tell us what direction you are pointing. "The Drill" will have you pointing straight down the right side of the runway. Wifferdill and I say you will be pointing off to the right of the runway.
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See, there is no confusion, just fundamemtal disagreement. Coming out of the constant heading slip you should be pointing ( heading of aircraft) parralell to the RWY, not pointing off to the right. You said earlier you need crosswind to do this drill. Is that becuase you believe an aircraft on a constant heading slip ( side slip) doesn't move side ways through the air?
 
vintage cessna said:
See, there is no confusion, just fundamemtal disagreement.
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That's fine. I simply suggest you take your vintage Cessna out and fly that picture - slip such that your flight path is at an angle to the runway, nose aligned with the runway, and see what happens when you do nothing but "neutralize the controls". Where are you pointed, and what's your flight path now? It's such an easy thing to do.
 
vintage cessna said:
See, there is no confusion, just fundamemtal disagreement. Coming out of the constant heading slip you should be pointing ( heading of aircraft) parralell to the RWY, not pointing off to the right. You said earlier you need crosswind to do this drill. Is that becuase you believe an aircraft on a constant heading slip ( side slip) doesn't move side ways through the air?
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No, the issue appears to be an answer to this question: from a slip, can you neutralize the controls into a changed flight path over the ground?
 
whifferdill said:
Are we looking at the same picture?? The picture in post #1 has a text box at the top that reads, "controls are neutralized"...
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Ahh okay, I see that, sorry. Honestly, for me that simply means that at that point the controls are in the neutral position and you are in coordinated flight. Now how you get them there I'm not sure what you are thinking. You don't just let go of them, you return to neutral and exit the slip with the same coordination you entered it. If it's a side slip you are going to keep the heading constant as it says in the side text.

whifferdill said:
A...Believe me, I have much interest in stick and rudder skills of the sake of stick and rudder skills. I've just never been intrigued by this slip drill. I don't think it does anything to improve slipping skills. I also don't think drawing boxes or circles on the horizon with the nose teaches slipping skills - it's just an exercise for the sake of the exercise. Nothing wrong with doing that stuff, though.
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You're certainly entitled to your opinion on that and I disagree. I think they are good exercises for students as they clearly demonstrate the nuances of different aircraft in cross control configuration. In a Champ or Cub for instance when you move the stick to the left without moving the rudder the first thing that is going to happen is you're gonna start turning right due to the extreme adverse yaw in those designs so to prevent that and hold heading you first have to apply left rudder then as you increase aileron you gradually feed in right rudder. You do this back and forth gracefully passing through neutral while keeping the compass dead on heading with precision. It's not a yank and bank exercise so maybe it would bore you to tears but hey, just give it a try, it's not as easy as it sounds to keep that heading dead nuts on.

If not, so be it. :rolleyes:
 
asechrest said:
No, the issue appears to be an answer to this question: from a slip, can you neutralize the controls into a changed flight path over the ground?
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Since you come out of the slip and have rid yourself of the side ways motion of the aircraft, why wouldn't the flight path change?
 
asechrest said:
No, the issue appears to be an answer to this question: from a slip, can you neutralize the controls into a changed flight path over the ground?
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No, you are missing the question entirely, it's not can you, it's will you. "The Drill" says you will not. Can you the answer is 'of course'. What is being put forward in "The Drill" is that you can shift your flight path laterally with a slip and NOT change the heading you will be on when you release the slip.
 
Henning said:
No, you are missing the question entirely, it's not can you, it's will you. "The Drill" says you will not. Can you the answer is 'of course'. What is being put forward in "The Drill" is that you can shift your flight path laterally with a slip and NOT change the heading you will be on when you release the slip.
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Semantics, mostly. If you won't, then you can't, not with the caveat that controls must be neutralized and nothing else.
 
If you were to slip an aircraft left, the right wing rises. This has now created a horizontal component of lift which will force the airplane to turn to the left. Turn, as in a change in heading. You prevent the turn by applying opposite rudder. You now have a situation where something has to give. The "give" is a "slip". The aircraft will actualy start moving side ways. It is also moving forward at the same time. Some people think the airplane will not actualy move side ways.
 
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