runup area. WWYD?

J

JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Right Seater
The T hangar door thread inspired this rant, but I didn't want to co-opt that thread.

My rant is that we have a runup area that can accommodate four airplanes. But there is not enough room to go around a plane that is in front of you.
From my hangar I can see this entire run-up area. It is almost predictable that if a plane enters the runup area, even if there is nobody else there, they will pull up to the first spot which blocks anyone else from entering until they leave. I have seen this over and over where two or three aircraft will have to wait on the taxiway and either do their run-up there, or just wait. If there are more than two planes waiting, they will block an intersecting taxiway.

I have mentioned this to the airport manager but nothing has been done. It is mostly flight school students and their CFI's (who are based at this airport), but it is also common for transient pilots to do this.

WTF is wrong with people that stop at the first position which obviously is going to block anyone else from entering the area? :mad2::mad1::mad3:
 
One thought: widen the runup area.

Of course, the inconsiderate ******** would probably figure out a way to still block everything...
 
JOhnH said:
My rant is that we have a runup area that can accommodate four airplanes. But there is not enough room to go around a plane that is in front of you.
Click to expand...

could you draw this run up area for us? Definitionally that doesn't quite read as a run-up area, if a non-participating aircraft cannot access the runway because of someone in said "run up" apron.
 
kaiser said:
If the run ups take that long, they’re doing it wrong. For student pilots, go run up on a ramp where your prop blast is pointed in a safe spot.
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The runup in our RV-8 takes less than 30 seconds. Mag check, cycle the prop, latch the canopy, pump on, mixture rich, let’s go. Everything else is done before taxiing - less workload once the plane starts moving, less time on the runup pad.
 
hindsight2020 said:
could you draw this run up area for us? Definitionally that doesn't quite read as a run-up area, if a non-participating aircraft cannot access the runway because of someone in said "run up" apron.
Click to expand...
From the OP's profile and description, I bet it's KOMN runway 27. Looking at the Google Maps image, I can definitely see the problem. Pilots should pull into the furthest available spot, not the nearest spot, which blocks others from using the further spots.

Yeah, I'd be pretty upset if there was a plane in the nearest spot doing a 10 minute training run up and I can't get by.

OP, by the first spot do you mean that first angled one or the first of the (three in this picture) actual runup spots? I would call that first angled one not a runup spot at all. Are they using it for such?

1000002447.jpg
 
hindsight2020 said:
could you draw this run up area for us? Definitionally that doesn't quite read as a run-up area, if a non-participating aircraft cannot access the runway because of someone in said "run up" apron.
Click to expand...
 

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    runup.png
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"ground/tower, unable to reach runup area or hold short line due to plane blocking access"

but if someone REALLY stopped where you say they did, that's ridiculous. I'll see somewhat similar behavior (not really) at my field where there's an obvious "1st spot" but I stopped caring if there were planes there before them or not because it's easy to get around/past them to the next spot. where you outlined doesn't even look like a "spot", it's literally blocking access to the runway (ie if someone didn't need a runup).
 
ateamer said:
The runup in our RV-8 takes less than 30 seconds. Mag check, cycle the prop, latch the canopy, pump on, mixture rich, let’s go. Everything else is done before taxiing - less workload once the plane starts moving, less time on the runup pad.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure you don't understand how a runup works for a student pilot or other pilots who lack social awareness. First, do you have any idea how long it takes to setup 3 Gopro's to film your flight? OK, how about the time it takes to find the right playlist (Iron Eagle is recommended) to pipe through your bluetooth capable headsets? After that, you still have to download the latest version of charts and the like to your iThingie. All of that takes a while. Be patient. You and those other pilots can wait. Even better, you can log the time you spend there idling.
 
eman1200 said:
"ground/tower, unable to reach runup area or hold short line due to plane blocking access"

but if someone REALLY stopped where you say they did, that's ridiculous. I'll see somewhat similar behavior (not really) at my field where there's an obvious "1st spot" but I stopped caring if there were planes there before them or not because it's easy to get around/past them to the next spot. where you outlined doesn't even look like a "spot", it's literally blocking access to the runway (ie if someone didn't need a runup).
Click to expand...
It's not a spot. That's why I said "four" spots when there are really only 3 designated. They make their own spot.
It's rarely a problem for me, but it is just the obnoxious idiocy I object to.
 
ateamer said:
The runup in our RV-8 takes less than 30 seconds. Mag check, cycle the prop, latch the canopy, pump on, mixture rich, let’s go. Everything else is done before taxiing - less workload once the plane starts moving, less time on the runup pad.
Click to expand...
If that were the case it wouldn't bother me.
But it is often (not always) students with a CFI that appear to be going over the entire pre-flight briefing.
 
eman1200 said:
"ground/tower, unable to reach runup area or hold short line due to plane blocking access"

but if someone REALLY stopped where you say they did, that's ridiculous. I'll see somewhat similar behavior (not really) at my field where there's an obvious "1st spot" but I stopped caring if there were planes there before them or not because it's easy to get around/past them to the next spot. where you outlined doesn't even look like a "spot", it's literally blocking access to the runway (ie if someone didn't need a runup).
Click to expand...
Yep. You got it.
 
kyleb said:
I'm pretty sure you don't understand how a runup works for a student pilot or other pilots who lack social awareness. First, do you have any idea how long it takes to setup 3 Gopro's to film your flight? OK, how about the time it takes to find the right playlist (Iron Eagle is recommended) to pipe through your bluetooth capable headsets? After that, you still have to download the latest version of charts and the like to your iThingie. All of that takes a while. Be patient. You and those other pilots can wait. Even better, you can log the time you spend there idling.
Click to expand...
Even without all that other stuff, one of the things my first instructor told me is "Don't get in a hurry. That's how you miss something." I'm sure that during my training I took a ridiculous amount of time working my way through that Run-up checklist.
 
what a mess of a hold short line choice. The airport flubbed up on that one.

Just like @ateamer highlights, I too don't need the airline length crew briefing honey-do (see, I already sound like an RV owner :biggrin: ). As a non-local I would be the guy calling ready on tower freq while still taxiing, taking that diagonal right into the HS line. Stopping exactly there, for there is where I would expect to hold short if I was indeed #1 for the runway.

There's no provision for that distinction within that airfield layout. Anybody, for any reason, has to go to the end, otherwise the entire row is blocked. If tower held me say for landing traffic, I would be no different a "guilty" party than said aspiring gear-beetch and their 10-minute simple piston prop checklist reading.

I suppose tower could add that instruction on ATIS, or advise all players to roll it up to the end in order to keep that diagonal open if someone isn't familiar. I'd be cool with that, especially as a transient. But the real instructional fix is to fix the hold short line placement and make the clarification moot.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I suppose tower could add that instruction on ATIS, or advise all players to roll it up to the end in order to keep that diagonal open if someone isn't familiar.
Click to expand...
A sign, the size of a runway/taxiway ident sign, asking pilots to "please pull ahead to the farthest available runup spot."
 
StraightnLevel said:
Honestly, if I were seeing that for the first time from the ground, I'm not sure that I would understand what it meant. Seeing it from the aerial photo it makes sense, but can you really see what the layout is from the ground?
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Actually, you can. It's pretty obvious.
 
Dan Thomas said:
A sign, the size of a runway/taxiway ident sign, asking pilots to "please pull ahead to the farthest available runup spot."
Click to expand...
If that doesn't work, perhaps this?
1711325796849.png

Barring that, maybe replace the 3 rightmost yellow lines with white T-bars?
 
asicer said:
If that doesn't work, perhaps this?
View attachment 127086

Barring that, maybe replace the 3 rightmost yellow lines with white T-bars?
Click to expand...
This would make the most sense, but my guess is that the hold short line is there because of how the protected areas are designed there. I think there are different rules that govern how close that line can be to the runway.
 
kaiser said:
This would make the most sense, but my guess is that the hold short line is there because of how the protected areas are designed there. I think there are different rules that govern how close that line can be to the runway.
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If that's the case, I'd still replace the 3 rightmost yellow lines with white T-bars and add the run-up boundary line. Perhaps also number the T-bars so that a ground controller (if there is one) can say "Runway 27, taxiway charlie, taxiway alfa, take T-bar #2, advise run-up complete."
 
Or do a rolling runup while taxying and avoid the area in question completely.??
 
Dan Thomas said:
A sign, the size of a runway/taxiway ident sign, asking pilots to "please pull ahead to the farthest available runup spot."
Click to expand...

In the meantime, .....

GROUND: "Bugsmasher 123AB, taxi via alpha to runup area, use farthest available spot."
 
The snarky part of me wants to ask if it is a Cirrus flight school?

Seriously, maybe a friendly visit to the flight school(s) to leverage the whole primacy of learning thing. Then when others see people taking advantage of the runup space they will have an ah-ha moment and follow suite.
 
JOhnH said:
If that were the case it wouldn't bother me.
But it is often (not always) students with a CFI that appear to be going over the entire pre-flight briefing.
Click to expand...
I've been that CFI before. Some students are great, some students are very slow. Rushing them is not a good thing. Sometimes they ask questions, too, or miss a step and you send them back to catch something. You don't know what's going on in the cockpit and it's unfair to presume that they have any malice.

Even experienced pilots like myself, recently jumping into a brand new multi, making sure you know where everything is in the cockpit - the first few preflights can take a bit longer than you want them to.
 
Taking time on a pre flight is a good thing. Especially for students. But the instructors should be teaching these student pilots proper etiquette.

The same people are the idiots on the highway in the fast lane with a bunch of cars behind them. They dont know the first rule of driving - if the car in front of you is farther away than the car behind you, move your a$$ over!

I remember when I taught junior high and telling a kid, you know we are all still here when you close your eyes. Some people never learn that.
 
Most people are not deliberately inconsiderate. It's usually more a matter of being unaware of their impact on others.
If it's a school, I would go have a courteous chat with the chief instructor and ask him to mention the issue to his instructors.
If individual CFIs, I would politely note on ground freq that they are blocking the rest of the runup spots and ask them to pull further right next time.
 
rockwoodrv9a said:
Taking time on a pre flight is a good thing. Especially for students. But the instructors should be teaching these student pilots proper etiquette.
Click to expand...
I've had that conversation - twice - with a school locally, and NOTHING changed, and I assume that even though a few individual CFI's know better, they are following a school policy. They also do runups downwind in ways that make doing a runup into the wind more challenging, and even occasionally pointing their prop wash towards parked planes. It's really dumb.
 
Zeldman said:
Or do a rolling runup while taxying and avoid the area in question completely.??
Click to expand...
How would that help avoid the area unless you take off from the taxi way before you get there? You still have to wait for them to move to take the runway.
 
JOhnH said:
If that were the case it wouldn't bother me.
But it is often (not always) students with a CFI that appear to be going over the entire pre-flight briefing.
Click to expand...
Nailed it. Pre-flight first on aircraft entry at the tie down. Then preflight/set-up aircraft with engine on. Run-up is then 30 seconds. Fly out of a training base - watched a Cherokee sit at the end of the runway for 10 minutes yesterday. Instructor's hand motions indicated much more than a run-up was being performed. Blocks the whole line. At least they had turned somewhat perpendicular to the taxiway. Love the pilots (and students) who run-up aligned to the taxiway with the engine at 1700 rpm or greater for three minutes.
 
JOhnH said:
But it is often (not always) students with a CFI that appear to be going over the entire pre-flight briefing.
Click to expand...

Always saw the same thing at FDK runway 3 and you're right that we seem to have a lot of CFI's who don't understand SA starts before you leave the chocks. My answer was to do the runup on the way then request an intersection departure and cut the line. Sometimes though it was Potomac Approach and getting a release which could be 5 seconds and could be 15 minutes.
 
maybe back-taxi to grab the spot they should have used...
 
I feel your pain. CFI and student doing a 15 minute cockpit check and run-up. Every. Single. Time. They. Land.
 
That does seem like an unusual run-up configuration but I can see some brilliance in it. It does depend on some awareness to pull on through to the back spots.
Seems to me that
a) talking with the flight school's chief about it​
b) perhaps make up some simple "how-to" posters and stick them up at various places around the FBO, at the fuel pump, etc...as an FYI to folks​
might get the message across...if not to everyone, at least a bulk of them.
 
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