Roy Halladay's Icon A5 down off of Tampa Coast

SixPapaCharlie said:
but to be selling this type of flying to a new pilot is irrisponsible.
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100%

Icon is a disaster for GA. The public's perception of GA is bad enough, this is going to do nothing but hurt people and general aviation

Plus, we all called it. Wouldn't have been hard, and still isn't, for them to clean up their act. Oh well. Icon needs to go away before they hurt more people and damage aviation further
 
With the minor exception that some public observers ARE pilots (degree of training, skill and experience variable of course) Shepard is right on.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Damn... If that was a test ride. This is problematic. I get that there are people capable of doing a lot with a plane and can do stuff like this "safely" but to be selling this type of flying to a new pilot is irrisponsible.
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Looked like a wing strike waiting to happen.... or any number of other things.
 
One thing I definitely don't like doing while flying is eating up my safety margin.
 
Halliday was not a new pilot. With more than 700 hours and the ratings he had, he should have known how risky his behavior was, regardless of any marketing video.
 
Lindberg said:
Halliday was not a new pilot. With more than 700 hours and the ratings he had, he should have known how risky his behavior was, regardless of any marketing video.
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But he was a professional athlete, and one of best on top of that, I think that results in inflated ego, reminds me of a line in top gun, “your ego is writing checks your body can’t cash”?
 
teejayevans said:
But he was a professional athlete, and one of best on top of that, I think that results in inflated ego, reminds me of a line in top gun, “your ego is writing checks your body can’t cash”?
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As a professional baseball athlete he doubtless had faster reflexes and better hand-eye coordination than most. And he didn't become an all-star by avoiding playing at the limits. I wouldn't call it ego, but confidence in his own physical abilities might have played a part in pushing the margins of safety.

An error on the diamond isn't fatal, but once again we learn how unforgiving making mistakes in the air can be.
 
GRG55 said:
As a professional baseball athlete he doubtless had faster reflexes and better hand-eye coordination than most. And he didn't become an all-star by avoiding playing at the limits. I wouldn't call it ego, but confidence in his own physical abilities might have played a part in pushing the margins of safety.

An error on the diamond isn't fatal, but once again we learn how unforgiving making mistakes in the air can be.
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Well put.
 
Tantalum said:
100%

Icon is a disaster for GA. The public's perception of GA is bad enough, this is going to do nothing but hurt people and general aviation
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Which is really too bad as I think the product itself is pretty interesting.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Which is really too bad as I think the product itself is pretty interesting.
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Totally agree. GA needs more cool products to get people interested in flying. The experimental market is great to help keep costs down, and products like Cirrus are great to have something new and modern to garner interest. The Icon seemed like a great way to get people interested in flying for (relatively) low money (at least compared to a new Cirrus/Piper/Cessna, etc.), but this was also back when they were under $300K new. Oh well

As others have posted would be great to have Icon backed by a solid company who can give it the right training culture, etc.
 
From everything I've heard about Halladay, he was a hard working and meticulous student of the game of baseball. His study and preparation were part of what made him great. He didn't strike me as a "let's wing it" kind of guy. I'd have pegged him as a follow the checklist and don't push the envelope kind of pilot. Sad story.
I wonder if type of aircraft, notwithstanding their marketing, lends itself to risky behavior. The analogy has been made to a jetski with wings. I think most people start off slow and steady on jetskis and then that gets kinda boring and you start flying around. If you fall off a jetski, it's kinda fun. Not so much in the Icon.
 
scorpio said:
From everything I've heard about Halladay, he was a hard working and meticulous student of the game of baseball. His study and preparation were part of what made him great. He didn't strike me as a "let's wing it" kind of guy. I'd have pegged him as a follow the checklist and don't push the envelope kind of pilot. Sad story.
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I have no idea how anyone who is not a close friend or associate of Roy would know how he might get his jollies rocked outside of the carefully managed baseball environment.

scorpio said:
I wonder if type of aircraft, notwithstanding their marketing, lends itself to risky behavior. The analogy has been made to a jetski with wings. I think most people start off slow and steady on jetskis and then that gets kinda boring and you start flying around. If you fall off a jetski, it's kinda fun. Not so much in the Icon.
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They dressed up a low powered light sport with swoopy plastic. This is all about marketing to a specific customer (the "Apex Motorsport" adrenaline seeking crowd). Look at the friggin' marketing videos and low level yank and bank stuff on intro flights. Couple that with his own comments (“I keep telling my dad flying the Icon A5 low over the water is like flying a fighter jet!”).

Have you seen the beautiful videos on their web site showing low level formation flying? Now you can take on risky behavior with your low hour sport pilot buddy as well!

I think that Icon was not playing up "the fear of dying if you depart the envelope at low altitudes" into its potential customer base, like nearly every CFI does with their students. Heck, look at the folks here echoing "but ... it's the safest small plane ever" crap their marketing organization was putting out.

"These are the seeds they have sown", and all that.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Heck, look at the folks here echoing "but ... it's the safest small plane ever" crap their marketing organization was putting out. .
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I don't think folks were echoing the safety stuff as much as mocking it. I certainly was, but a newbie to aviation may not be able (or willing) to see through the bullchit. THAT is what is unscrupulous.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I don't think folks were echoing the safety stuff as much as mocking it. I certainly was, but a newbie to aviation may not be able (or willing) to see through the bullchit. THAT is what is unscrupulous.
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Not referring to you. Earlier posts like this:

That being said, you can't blame the plane. If the A5 proves to have no faulty design issues, this might be the SAFEST single engine plane ever made. Believe it.

Certified spin resistant, great handling, low stall speed, AOA indicator, can land on water, and a parachute. This is the pinnacle of a safe plane, as far as we know.​
 
The most dangerous part of the plane is the loose nut holding the stick. Sadly, that's the safety element Icon seems to be compromising.
 
GRG55 said:
As a professional baseball athlete he doubtless had faster reflexes and better hand-eye coordination than most. And he didn't become an all-star by avoiding playing at the limits. I wouldn't call it ego, but confidence in his own physical abilities might have played a part in pushing the margins of safety.

An error on the diamond isn't fatal, but once again we learn how unforgiving making mistakes in the air can be.
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Oh it's ego,

I have better reflexes and had eye than many, I know a little about base ball, think they'll put me up to bat for the World Series?

He had next to zero seaplane or backcountry experience and was playing games pros wouldn't play, he chose poorly, he died.
 
James331 said:
He had next to zero seaplane or backcountry experience and was playing games pros wouldn't play, he chose poorly, he died.
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What does backcountry experience have to do with it. He was in the Gulf of Mexico just north of Tampa/St Pete.
 
Tantalum said:
The experimental market is great to help keep costs down
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That it is. The experimental side of things is fantastic, although I’ve found that a lot of folks who are not in the GA sphere, don’t like hearing the words “experimental” and “airplane” in the same sentence.
 
There are many sad aspects to this story. One of them is that the attempt to make aviation interesting/exciting/appealing, especially to younger people, will be dead on one front. There are others, but this was certainly a way to get people excited about flying. It appears to be way too risky, or at least to have attracted the thrill-seekers.
 
donjohnston said:
What does backcountry experience have to do with it. He was in the Gulf of Mexico just north of Tampa/St Pete.
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Backcountry time is often low level contact style flying, landing in places no one landed before and operating low level.

Guess you don't have any backcountry time?
 
James331 said:
Backcountry time is often low level contact style flying, landing in places no one landed before and operating low level.

Guess you don't have any backcountry time?
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If "backcountry time" were important for flying a seaplane, wouldn't there be a requirement for it? I'm sure insurance companies would require it... if it mattered.

I can see it now.

DPE: You've met all the flight requirements for your seaplane rating except you don't have any backcountry time. So until you've gone up to Idaho or Montana and logged x hours in the backcountry, you can't take the checkride.
Applicant: But I'm in Florida. Can't I just go down to Okeechobee?
DPE: No. It has to be actual backcountry.
Applicant: What's that got to do with flying a plane with floats.
DPE: Nothing. But some guy said to fly floats you should have backcounty experience. So here we are.
 
On another note,
donjohnston said:
If "backcountry time" were important for flying a seaplane, wouldn't there be a requirement for it? I'm sure insurance companies would require it... if it mattered.

I can see it now.

DPE: You've met all the flight requirements for your seaplane rating except you don't have any backcountry time. So until you've gone up to Idaho or Montana and logged x hours in the backcountry, you can't take the checkride.
Applicant: But I'm in Florida. Can't I just go down to Okeechobee?
DPE: No. It has to be actual backcountry.
Applicant: What's that got to do with flying a plane with floats.
DPE: Nothing. But some guy said to fly floats you should have backcounty experience. So here we are.
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He very clearly said OR, not AND.
 
donjohnston said:
If "backcountry time" were important for flying a seaplane, wouldn't there be a requirement for it? I'm sure insurance companies would require it... if it mattered.

I can see it now.

DPE: You've met all the flight requirements for your seaplane rating except you don't have any backcountry time. So until you've gone up to Idaho or Montana and logged x hours in the backcountry, you can't take the checkride.
Applicant: But I'm in Florida. Can't I just go down to Okeechobee?
DPE: No. It has to be actual backcountry.
Applicant: What's that got to do with flying a plane with floats.
DPE: Nothing. But some guy said to fly floats you should have backcounty experience. So here we are.
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Actually insurance companies do require seaplane time quite often.

And backcountry time is kinda quasi substitute for knowing how to operate low level in off airport environments.


Also you didn't answer my question?
How much seaplane or backcountry time do you have?

Because low level off airport is a diffrent animal, it's one of the most dynamic, rewarding, but also UNFORGIVING types of flying out there
 
Ryanb said:
a lot of folks who are not in the GA sphere, don’t like hearing the words “experimental” and “airplane” in the same sentence
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Nope, they certainly don't! It's a shame really since there are some great offerings out there and it really speaks (I think) to the core spirit of aviation to have an experimental market out there. But the general public doesn't really take kindly to it as you noted. About a year ago there was an experimental plane that crashed at my old home airport and the comments on the local news facebook page really spoke volumes about how the average person sees it. C'est la vie
 
James331 said:
Backcountry time is often low level contact style flying, landing in places no one landed before and operating low level.
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The pilots I've met who do backcountry flying are remarkably skilled aviators with a real passion for flying. The risks are understood and those risks are mitigated as reasonable as possible with their skill. There's no way a 20 hr pilot who sees their plane as a "toy" has anywhere near that same level of skill

I like to think myself a better than average driver (don't we all).. accident free and no tickets in well over a decade. BUT, there's no chance in hell I could do any of the rally or Dakar races, etc., and come out of that in one piece
 
It's accidents like these that help give GA a reputation for danger that could been reduced with even the most basic risk mitigation.

How many fatals a year are "hold my beer" moments or guys pushing the limits unnecessarily? How many are IFR pilots flying outside their abilities instead of just waiting for better weather? There was what? Two fatal IMC crashes with weather below minimums last week alone?

On the other hand, how many are a guy flying a 172 on a VFR day? I'm not saying flying is safe, but at least try to avoid dangerous situations. Doing aerobatics a few hundred feet off the deck is not avoiding dangerous situations.
 
flightwriter said:
Here's the prelim: https://ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20171107X60614&key=1
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From that prelim:

The airplane then flew for 10 miles and crossed over US Highway 19 about 600 ft GPS altitude, then descended to 36 ft over the water before turning south. The airplane then flew on southerly track past Green Key Beach at 11 ft GPS altitude and 92 knots. The airplane then performed a right 360° turn while climbing to about 100 ft. The airplane continued on a southerly track, flying as close as 75 ft to the Gulf Harbor South Beach houses. The last data point recovered indicated the airplane at an altitude of 200 ft, a speed of 87 knots
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36ft!!!

Man, sounds like a crazy flight. I can't even imagine trying anything like that. Terrible that he had to lose his life. Hopefully someone who thinks that's what they should do with a small, undersized, lightly powered, piston airplane will think twice before doing stuff like that, regardless of what a sales or marketing guy told you the plane is designed for.
 
neilw2 said:
From that prelim:



36ft!!!

Man, sounds like a crazy flight. I can't even imagine trying anything like that. Terrible that he had to lose his life. Hopefully someone who thinks that's what they should do with a small, undersized, lightly powered, piston airplane will think twice before doing stuff like that, regardless of what a sales or marketing guy told you the plane is designed for.
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I think you missed the 11' altitude followed by 75' from houses...
 
neilw2 said:
Man, sounds like a crazy flight. I can't even imagine trying anything like that. Terrible that he had to lose his life. Hopefully someone who thinks that's what they should do with a small, undersized, lightly powered, piston airplane will think twice before doing stuff like that, regardless of what a sales or marketing guy told you the plane is designed for.
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Or any airplane.
 
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