Routing to ksna, fbo recommendation

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m100psi

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m100psi
Hi all,

I’ll be heading down to ksna soon from the north and hoped to learn what I should expect. Does SoCal generally let the pilot choose the klax transition, as in, can I ask for the coastal route and expect to get it if weather permits?

Also, what is typical routing into ksna after you clear the bravo?

I called a couple fbos and it sounds like they let you park pretty cheap if you buy about 20 gallons of fuel. Any recommendations for or against fbos to park for a few days?

Thanks for answers to any of these.
 
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I don't recall normally getting a bravo clearance into john Wayne. The only place to park there is the FBOS.
 
I mean the southbound klax bravo transition enroute. And which specific fbos people like or dislike.

Thanks,
Matt
 
One of the forum members here posted the procedure for the Special Flight Rules Area over LAX. Here's his video:

 
Your supposed to have the VFR chart with the procedures in there. They are all explained pretty well. If the weather is okay they will give you whatever transition you want. If you do the special flight rules you don't need a clearance.
 
m100psi said:
Hi all,

I’ll be heading down to ksna soon from the north and hoped to learn what I should expect. Does SoCal generally let the pilot choose the klax transition, as in, can I ask for the coastal route and expect to get it if weather permits?

Also, what is typical routing into ksna after you clear the bravo?

I called a couple fbos and it sounds like they let you park pretty cheap if you buy about 20 gallons of fuel. Any recommendations for or against fbos to park for a few days?

Thanks for answers to any of these.
Click to expand...

You choose and request the one you want. I’ve done them all and never had them hesitate at all to give the Clearance. Those routes are ‘designed’ to get VFR traffic through the IFR flow of traffic. I was usually going farther South than SNA. The Coliseum and Hollywood Park Routes could give you some ‘hung up high’ issues if they don’t let you down early before exiting the Bravo. I got hung high on the Hollywood Park Route once going into TOA. They let me down before exiting the Bravo, but not early enough that I didn’t have some maneuvering to do to get into the pattern.
 
Thanks for the input. I’ll already be on flight following southbound so plan to take the coastal route, then maybe sfra on the way back northbound so I don’t have to get up to 6500’ before the bravo.
 
I fly the Coastal Route all the time from NorCal...easy peasy to make the climb on the way back out from SNA unless you are in a max gross 152.

Personally not a fan of the SFRA as I like to remain on FF. On the SFRA you have to cancel, frequency change, self announced, then reestablish FF on the other side in some busy airspace. For HHR and SMO it makes sense if Mini Route is closed (which it often can be based on LAX Tower Controller workload) but I have found there is plenty of time to get up/down for SNA, LGB and FUL using Coastal Route

All you need once you get handed off to your first SoCal Controller is “SoCal, Skylane 12345 level 5,500, request Coastal Route”...done. Magoo Approach or LA Center can not do anything with that request so no need to ask earlier. Unless SoCal tells you to "Remain clear of Bravo" your clearance will eventually come so start flying to the entry point. I have been right up to the blue line before getting the actual clearance. You are expected to know and fly the routes without vectors or instructions from ATC. No shortcut on entry and exit points unless vectored by ATC.

SoCal expects you to know your chit but they will hand out Bravo clearance like candy on the transitions if you are prepared. Have heard unprepared bumbling fools told to "remain clear" meanwhile I came in right behind them with clearance granted. While super helpful and cooperative, they do not have time to play ask 20 questions. I keep all the LAX routes and a "clear of Bravo" route all programmed and saved as favorites in Foreflight to pull up on a seconds notice if needed to punt...but never have.

Once SOUTH of LAX and clear the surface area however you can “request lower and direct when able” which will allow you to descend down out of the 5000’ shelf early and own nav if desired without having to fly the entire route to the exit point at altitude inside Bravo and often granted. (Generally deviations are rarely permitted north side of LAX as that is where most of the IFR flyways are)

Approach into SNA from Coastal Route I typical get cross mid field and make left traffic for 20L. Note the 15 degree offset approach you are "supposed" to fly to remain clear of the big iron approach on 20R

If you are going for a few days, consider FUL. Much easier and quicker to get in and out of and parking is only $10/night at General Aviation and first night waived with fuel. Uber is all over that area. While I have no problem with Charlie airports or Jet Center FBO's I stopped going into SNA unless I need to be right near the airport for some reason. If you go to FUL via GMN, my preferred route is GMN>KBUR>KEMT>KFUL at 3500 which brings you around and under Bravo quicker that a LAX transition. Via SBA I use the Coastal Route into SNA AND FUL.
 
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Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In the past I have always opted for the SFRA because it was convenient to where I was going, and with the complexity of the airspace, if I get vectored off of my planned route, it might make me more likely to bust somebody's airspace when I'm told to resume my own navigation.
 
Palmpilot said:
Thanks for the detailed explanation.

In the past I have always opted for the SFRA because it was convenient to where I was going, and with the complexity of the airspace, if I get vectored off of my planned route, it might make me more likely to bust somebody's airspace when I'm told to resume my own navigation.
Click to expand...


That is one more reason to remain on a route that maintains flight following. With the exception of Bravo, all C and D walls essentially disappear as it explicitly ATCs job to coordinate transitions through other airspace if it is along your expected route.
 
Shawn said:
I fly the Coastal Route all the time from NorCal...easy peasy to make the climb on the way back out from SNA unless you are in a max gross 152.

Personally not a fan of the SFRA as I like to remain on FF. On the SFRA you have to cancel, frequency change, self announced, then reestablish FF on the other side in some busy airspace. For HHR and SMO it makes sense if Mini Route is closed (which it often can be based on LAX Tower Controller workload) but I have found there is plenty of time to get up/down for SNA, LGB and FUL using Coastal Route

All you need once you get handed off to your first SoCal Controller is “SoCal, Skylane 12345 level 5,500, request Coastal Route”...done. Magoo Approach or LA Center can not do anything with that request so no need to ask earlier. Unless SoCal tells you to "Remain clear of Bravo" your clearance will eventually come so start flying to the entry point. I have been right up to the blue line before getting the actual clearance. You are expected to know and fly the routes without vectors or instructions from ATC. No shortcut on entry and exit points unless vectored by ATC.

SoCal expects you to know your chit but they will hand out Bravo clearance like candy on the transitions if you are prepared. Have heard unprepared bumbling fools told to "remain clear" meanwhile I came in right behind them with clearance granted. While super helpful and cooperative, they do not have time to play ask 20 questions. I keep all the LAX routes and a "clear of Bravo" route all programmed and saved as favorites in Foreflight to pull up on a seconds notice if needed to punt...but never have.

Once SOUTH of LAX and clear the surface area however you can “request lower and direct when able” which will allow you to descend down out of the 5000’ shelf early and own nav if desired without having to fly the entire route to the exit point at altitude inside Bravo and often granted. (Generally deviations are rarely permitted north side of LAX as that is where most of the IFR flyways are)

Approach into SNA from Coastal Route I typical get cross mid field and make left traffic for 20L. Note the 15 degree offset approach you are "supposed" to fly to remain clear of the big iron approach on 20R

If you are going for a few days, consider FUL. Much easier and quicker to get in and out of and parking is only $10/night at General Aviation and first night waived with fuel. Uber is all over that area. While I have no problem with Charlie airports or Jet Center FBO's I stopped going into SNA unless I need to be right near the airport for some reason. If you go to FUL via GMN, my preferred route is GMN>KBUR>KEMT>KFUL at 3500 which brings you around and under Bravo quicker that a LAX transition. Via SBA I use the Coastal Route into SNA AND FUL.
Click to expand...

Just drawing @m100psi 's attention to this. Good stuff
 
Shawn said:
That is one more reason to remain on a route that maintains flight following. With the exception of Bravo, all C and D walls essentially disappear as it explicitly ATCs job to coordinate transitions through other airspace if it is along your expected route.
Click to expand...
I know that's true of C airspace, but people have posted about encountering exceptions with regard to D airspace.
 
Palmpilot said:
I know that's true of C airspace, but people have posted about encountering exceptions with regard to D airspace.
Click to expand...

Per the strict interpretation of the regs for arrivals INTO D you have to be talking to the facility providing services for authorization to enter (which is Tower for D, TRACON or Center do not provide services for D). For transitions THROUGH and while receiving radar services ATC will coordinate transitions through airspace and pilots and not expected to obtain their own authorization.

Now, just being on FF does not mean you can willy nilly dart into any C/D but if on FF and part of your expected route it is on ATC to coordinate.

JO 7110.65 ATC STATES:

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS
  • b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace.
    NOTE:
  • The pilot is not expected to obtain his own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility.
 
Just a heads up. The mini route is closed due to staffing issues at LAX. It's still on the charts but you will not get it.
 
Shawn said:
I fly the Coastal Route all the time from NorCal...easy peasy to make the climb on the way back out from SNA unless you are in a max gross 152.

Personally not a fan of the SFRA as I like to remain on FF. On the SFRA you have to cancel, frequency change, self announced, then reestablish FF on the other side in some busy airspace. For HHR and SMO it makes sense if Mini Route is closed (which it often can be based on LAX Tower Controller workload) but I have found there is plenty of time to get up/down for SNA, LGB and FUL using Coastal Route

All you need once you get handed off to your first SoCal Controller is “SoCal, Skylane 12345 level 5,500, request Coastal Route”...done. Magoo Approach or LA Center can not do anything with that request so no need to ask earlier. Unless SoCal tells you to "Remain clear of Bravo" your clearance will eventually come so start flying to the entry point. I have been right up to the blue line before getting the actual clearance. You are expected to know and fly the routes without vectors or instructions from ATC. No shortcut on entry and exit points unless vectored by ATC.

SoCal expects you to know your chit but they will hand out Bravo clearance like candy on the transitions if you are prepared. Have heard unprepared bumbling fools told to "remain clear" meanwhile I came in right behind them with clearance granted. While super helpful and cooperative, they do not have time to play ask 20 questions. I keep all the LAX routes and a "clear of Bravo" route all programmed and saved as favorites in Foreflight to pull up on a seconds notice if needed to punt...but never have.

Once SOUTH of LAX and clear the surface area however you can “request lower and direct when able” which will allow you to descend down out of the 5000’ shelf early and own nav if desired without having to fly the entire route to the exit point at altitude inside Bravo and often granted. (Generally deviations are rarely permitted north side of LAX as that is where most of the IFR flyways are)

Approach into SNA from Coastal Route I typical get cross mid field and make left traffic for 20L. Note the 15 degree offset approach you are "supposed" to fly to remain clear of the big iron approach on 20R

If you are going for a few days, consider FUL. Much easier and quicker to get in and out of and parking is only $10/night at General Aviation and first night waived with fuel. Uber is all over that area. While I have no problem with Charlie airports or Jet Center FBO's I stopped going into SNA unless I need to be right near the airport for some reason. If you go to FUL via GMN, my preferred route is GMN>KBUR>KEMT>KFUL at 3500 which brings you around and under Bravo quicker that a LAX transition. Via SBA I use the Coastal Route into SNA AND FUL.
Click to expand...

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking to understand. And opposite wind I guess also cross midfield and right traffic 02R. I see the 15 degree note you mentioned for both in the AFD.

I would definitely head to a smaller airport if ksna wasn’t much closer to the destination, and traffic in SoCal wasn’t what it is.
 
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