Right rudder and toe brakes, Archer II vs. Dakota

stevenhmiller

stevenhmiller

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Steve's Archer
I used to own an Archer II, and just bought a Dakota this weekend. The first two things I notice in the Dakota that were not prevalent in the Archer is, a bar that goes across by the top of the toe brakes and the huge amount of right rudder required during takeoff and climb.

I haven't looked under the panel yet to see what exactly that bar is above the toe brakes. I do know it's a royal pain and gets in the way. I feel like my toes are barely on the toe pedals for breaking. Makes it difficult.

As for right rudder, it was not a big deal in the Archer, but in the Dakota, it takes everything I have to keep pressure on the right rudder. I know it's a much larger engine in the Dakota, but wow! By the time I get to about 2500', my right leg feels like rubber.

Anyone else experience these two things? Is it like this in all Dakotas?
 
The bar is there on some of the older PA28-180's too. You'll get the feel of it soon enough.

As @paflyer said, rudder trim is your friend. It's either a little right trim or a LOT of right rudder.
 
Yeah, that's what I'm gathering from talking to other pilots. The Archer was never an issue, as that barely took any effort. The Dakota needs the use of the rudder trim, from what I was advised. I'll be testing that over the weekend.
Thanks!
 
stevenhmiller said:
I used to own an Archer II, and just bought a Dakota this weekend. The first two things I notice in the Dakota that were not prevalent in the Archer is, a bar that goes across by the top of the toe brakes and the huge amount of right rudder required during takeoff and climb.

I haven't looked under the panel yet to see what exactly that bar is above the toe brakes. I do know it's a royal pain and gets in the way. I feel like my toes are barely on the toe pedals for breaking. Makes it difficult.

As for right rudder, it was not a big deal in the Archer, but in the Dakota, it takes everything I have to keep pressure on the right rudder. I know it's a much larger engine in the Dakota, but wow! By the time I get to about 2500', my right leg feels like rubber.

Anyone else experience these two things? Is it like this in all Dakotas?
Click to expand...

Rudder trim relieves the pressure, just turn the knob to the right until it stiffens (gets harder to turn) and you feel the pressure relief in the pedal. Re-trim after level-off by repeating the procedure turning the knob to the left. The rudder trim just applies spring pressure to the rudder control linkage. It is not an actual aerodynamic control like elevator trim.

As for “taking everything I have” to hold right rudder, that doesn’t sound right. Firm pressure is required but nothing exceptional. The rudder rigging may seem odd to some mechanics because it isn’t symmetrical when rigged by the book. I don’t know if improper rigging would cause the problem you describe.

The only bars above the toe brakes that I remember are rudder and brake linkages. They sorta need to be there. Anyway the handbrake is fine for braking along with rudder for steering.
 
Slightly off topic... but close enough for PoA...

Rudder trim vs HP? I've flown many airplanes that are <= 200 HP and only one that is >201 HP. It happens to be 300HP and right rudder trim for take off is normal procedure.

Is it usually the case that as the horsepower increases above 200 the rudder trim gets adjusted?
 
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Ravioli said:
Slightly off topic... but close enough for PoA...

Rudder trim vs HP? I've flown many airplanes that are <= 200 HP and only one that is <201 HP. It happens to be 300HP and right rudder trim for take off is normal procedure.

Is it usually the case that as the horsepower increases above 200 the rudder trim gets adjusted?
Click to expand...

I think you meant >201.

I'd use rudder trim on any plane that had it and that required anything more than slight pedal pressure to keep straight.
 
Ravioli said:
Slightly off topic... but close enough for PoA...

Rudder trim vs HP? I've flown many airplanes that are <= 200 HP and only one that is <201 HP. It happens to be 300HP and right rudder trim for take off is normal procedure.

Is it usually the case that as the horsepower increases above 200 the rudder trim gets adjusted?
Click to expand...
I’ve used rudder trim in a Warrior if I’m climbing for a long period of time. It beats mashing my foot on the rudder to get to cruise altitude, especially if it’s a hot, high DA day with a full load. In the Cirrus I just throw on the yaw damper and the plane does it all for me.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I think you meant >201.

I'd use rudder trim on any plane that had it and that required anything more than slight pedal pressure to keep straight.
Click to expand...

Dang it... thanks for the correction but you is right... again.
 
just imagine if that engine were bigger.....you'd need an even bigger right foot. o_O


no worries small fry.....that right leg will eventually grow muscles. :D
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
just imagine if that engine were bigger.....you'd need an even bigger right foot. o_O


no worries small fry.....that right leg will eventually grow muscles. :D
Click to expand...
Just how much rudder pressure is required? I have no way to accurately estimate it but it's much less than body weight on my 'kota. It's tough for me to imagine that a normal person who walks a little bit would have any trouble with it. Maybe the trim is full left so he has to overcome both the spring and the left turning tendency? There should be a decal for center reference on the trim indicator. It's also easy to think the decal has gone missing.
 
Clark1961 said:
Just how much rudder pressure is required? I have no way to accurately estimate it but it's much less than body weight on my 'kota. It's tough for me to imagine that a normal person who walks a little bit would have any trouble with it. Maybe the trim is full left so he has to overcome both the spring and the left turning tendency? There should be a decal for center reference on the trim indicator. It's also easy to think the decal has gone missing.
Click to expand...

Agree. It's nothing that should really give your leg a workout. Maybe trim not set for takeoff?
 
mscard88 said:
Agree. It's nothing that should really give your leg a workout. Maybe trim not set for takeoff?
Click to expand...
I don't even bother with setting rudder trim for take-off. I leave it set for cruise during descent and landing so that's where it is on departure. Once I'm trimmed for cruise-climb I'll set rudder trim then re-trim after leveling off. I usually don't bother with it on initial climb but sometimes do.
 
Ravioli said:
The bar is there on some of the older PA28-180's too.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it can definitely get in the way, or feel awkward. I have large-ish feet (size 12) and I have to position my foot carefully to be able to use the toe brakes... it has happened where I am pressing and the plane is not turning and I have to move my foot down

stevenhmiller said:
I do know it's a royal pain and gets in the way.
Click to expand...
It sure is! Makes me think the designers and test pilots had smaller feet?
 
well.....I recall the legg'n maneuvers I went thru when I was new to the Six.

It felt like I was in a one legg'n kicking contest and losing.....for a while at least. :D

The Bonanza has a little bit less leg action and the engine is a bit more.....so, go figure.

I do think it's something ya eventually get use to......:wonderwoman:
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
well.....I recall the legg'n maneuvers I went thru when I was new to the Six.

It felt like I was in a one legg'n kicking contest and losing.....for a while at least. :D

The Bonanza has a little bit less leg action and the engine is a bit more.....so, go figure.

I do think it's something ya eventually get use to......:wonderwoman:
Click to expand...

PA 32s a lot different than the PA28s for sure.
 
A long time ago I was current in a Saratoga II (PA-32-301) 300 horsepower and the right rudder required on takeoff was quite large compared to the Archer II I had been flying. So I agree with Sixie. But I never retrimmed the rudder on TO... Once you level off or reduce to climb power the rudder pressure is entirely doable.

The other need for rudder is trying to taxi the Saratoga. That engine is heavy and it is way out in front on that beast. Lot of weight on the nosewheel!

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
A long time ago I was current in a Saratoga II (PA-32-301) 300 horsepower and the right rudder required on takeoff was quite large compared to the Archer II I had been flying. So I agree with Sixie. But I never retrimmed the rudder on TO... Once you level off or reduce to climb power the rudder pressure is entirely doable.

The other need for rudder is trying to taxi the Saratoga. That engine is heavy and it is way out in front on that beast. Lot of weight on the nosewheel!

-Skip
Click to expand...
another one Skip.....is the guy who "left" all that rudder trim in.....and yuz was wondering why you were so slow in cruise. :rollercoaster:
 
The bar you're feeling above your toes is likely the cross bar that the rudder pedals are attached to. As far as I know, all Cherokees are set up this way.
 
Funny, on my transition ride from 152 trainer to 260hp 182, I almost went off the right side of the runway and had to abort...all this talk about right rudder for years psyched me out. I could've corralled a P51 that day. No joke.
 
Next time on climb out put your left foot on the floor and you will probably find the rudder pressure decreases a bunch. You unconsciously push down with your left foot along with your right. Also if it has rudder trim use it! It sure takes the work out of things. On high horsepower singles it is usually part of the take off check list. On a Mustang you are constantly adjusting rudder trim with any kind of power change and you better have it in for take off. Don
 
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