Right of way on final

Topper

Topper

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Topper
The issue of right of way on final came up in another thread and I think it may be a topic worth discussing on its own.

The issue was that a plane was in the pattern and another announced a 10 mile final. The plane in the pattern went around the pattern to not violate the plane on final has the right of way rule.

I have never looked at the right of way rule that way. To me it is similar to a stop sign. If you are at a stop sign, the cross traffic has the right of way. I don't wait until there are no other cars on the cross street, I wait until I can proceed without affecting the cars on the cross street.

I do the same thing when flying, if a plane is on a 10 mile final and I can jump in and turn final and exit the runway in front of him and don't cause him to have to go around, do a 360, etc. I don't think I have violated the rules.

Maybe I am wrong, but if you train at an airport with lots of instrument training and you refuse to land while another plane is on a long final, you are not going to get much pattern work in.

I will even take it a step further, assume a busy pattern and some guy announces a 5 mile straight in, to me that is taking advantage of the being on final rule. He can do a 360 for spacing if my turning final screws him up, on the other hand if he announces he is on an instrument approach, I will announce extending downwind to allow him to finish his approach.

Jim
 
I was trained to call "straight in" and not use the word "final" until actually on final. However, it is not uncommon at my home drome to hear someone call a 10 mile straight in final. I just make sure I can land safely ahead of them otherwise I just extend downwind until they pass by. If you are 10 miles out then you are not on final - period.
 
Topper said:
I do the same thing when flying, if a plane is on a 10 mile final and I can jump in and turn final and exit the runway in front of him and don't cause him to have to go around, do a 360, etc. I don't think I have violated the rules.
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Bingo.
 
Topper said:
The issue of right of way on final came up in another thread and I think it may be a topic worth discussing on its own.

The issue was that a plane was in the pattern and another announced a 10 mile final. The plane in the pattern went around the pattern to not violate the plane on final has the right of way rule.

I have never looked at the right of way rule that way. To me it is similar to a stop sign. If you are at a stop sign, the cross traffic has the right of way. I don't wait until there are no other cars on the cross street, I wait until I can proceed without affecting the cars on the cross street.

I do the same thing when flying, if a plane is on a 10 mile final and I can jump in and turn final and exit the runway in front of him and don't cause him to have to go around, do a 360, etc. I don't think I have violated the rules.

Maybe I am wrong, but if you train at an airport with lots of instrument training and you refuse to land while another plane is on a long final, you are not going to get much pattern work in.

I will even take it a step further, assume a busy pattern and some guy announces a 5 mile straight in, to me that is taking advantage of the being on final rule. He can do a 360 for spacing if my turning final screws him up, on the other hand if he announces he is on an instrument approach, I will announce extending downwind to allow him to finish his approach.
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Aircraft on final have the right-of-way when right-of-way is an issue. Right-of-way is an issue when two aircraft will occupy the same point in space or nearly so if neither takes any action to avoid it. If you're in the pattern when an aircraft announces on final and you can safely complete your normal pattern without affecting that other aircraft in any way then right-of-way is not an issue. Some folks clearly believe "right-of-way" means "next aircraft to land". Those folks are wrong.
 
Your stop sign analogy is spot on. Yes, the cars on the busy cross street have right of way by rule. But if you see one a mile down the road and you can pull out in front of him without causing a conflict, there is zero obligation for you to wait on him. So regardless of semantics of where final actually starts, people calling 10 mile finals are probably not doing so to "claim priority" or take advantage of the rules. Treat them the same as you'd treat someone that calls "10 mile straight in" or "10 miles out on IFR approach" or whatever.

In short, I agree with everything Steven said.
 
I would say it depends on what I am flying that will determine when I call final.. You fly a Citation faster than a 172 on final.. I wouldn't want them to call final 2 miles out.. 10 miles would bring it more in line with the timing of the call.. Now if a Taylorcraft calls a 10 mile final and you have to wait 10 minutes for them to get there.. then I would be slightly annoyed..
 
Auburn2002 said:
Your stop sign analogy is spot on. Yes, the cars on the busy cross street have right of way by rule. But if you see one a mile down the road and you can pull out in front of him without causing a conflict, there is zero obligation for you to wait on him. So regardless of semantics of where final actually starts, people calling 10 mile finals are probably not doing so to "claim priority" or take advantage of the rules. Treat them the same as you'd treat someone that calls "10 mile straight in" or "10 miles out on IFR approach" or whatever.

In short, I agree with everything Steven said.
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Some of them definitely are. A guy did that to us in Midland recently and it was just close enough that even though we were on base and lower we decided to do a slow 360. I personally though he was being quite rude. I'm not against the straight in approach at a very quiet west Texas airport, but if you've both been announcing, you're actually closer and he just doesn't want to play nice, it's not really cool.
 
Auburn2002 said:
Your stop sign analogy is spot on. Yes, the cars on the busy cross street have right of way by rule. But if you see one a mile down the road and you can pull out in front of him without causing a conflict, there is zero obligation for you to wait on him. So regardless of semantics of where final actually starts, people calling 10 mile finals are probably not doing so to "claim priority" or take advantage of the rules. Treat them the same as you'd treat someone that calls "10 mile straight in" or "10 miles out on IFR approach" or whatever.

In short, I agree with everything Steven said.
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That.

10 mile final sounds to me a lot like someone on a instrument approach, I'm a fan of using as little instrument jargon as possible over CTAF, I'd rather be clearer for non IR pilots.

You could always just hit the button on your yoke, "Citation on 10 mile final, this is skyhawk 4TM, tight base, I'm going to squeeze in infront of you OK"

Also keep in mind the type, a 10 mile final for a Lear is not the same for you as a 10 mile final for a J3 :D
 
The "guy on final has right of way" rule is why many pilots like to do straight-ins. They figure that as long as they can establish right of way and do so as soon as possible that they have command of the runway and that everyone else can just pull over and wait. When some idiot is calling straight in several miles out and you are in the pattern, it is a good time to go short and use all of the runway.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
SkyDog58 said:
The "guy on final has right of way" rule is why many pilots like to do straight-ins. They figure that as long as they can establish right of way and do so as soon as possible that they have command of the runway and that everyone else can just pull over and wait. When some idiot is calling straight in several miles out and you are in the pattern, it is a good time to go short and use all of the runway.
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Is that an airplane version of road rage? When I call 10 mile final, right-of-way is nowhere in my mind. It's an informational call. If someone can turn base, land and get off the runway before I get there that's fine with me. But some have tried and not been successful. Oh well.
 
I grew up flying in SoCal. If you were on a 10 mile final in a single engine spam can, there would be 1 or 2 guys landing in front of you, and adjust your 10 mile spacing accordingly. In lower moose-ear Idaho which sees eight planes land per summer, you can call a 50 mile final and boo-effing-hoo no one cares.

Here's the deal as I see it. The 'pattern' planes at a busy airport are in sequence, and playing by the non-regulatory AIM. The 10 mile final guy is the outlier, and he can fit in with the existing traffic - or make adjustments to those in the queue. Exceptions to this rule would be the high speed traffic like a Lear or maybe another small jet. Everyone else can get in the line, or make S turns, or make a 360 for spacing.

I fly into one of the busiest non-towered airports every Oct for a regional fly-in. We all use the pattern to get in. A few years back some joker in an EXP called 10 mile final to the west, and about 9 planes called back 'in pattern number x for landing'. They just kept coming like RR cars behind the engine. The EXP guy got the hint and joined the queue.

So, if you want to use a non-standard approach and landing, that's fine but don't expect special treatment from those who are following good order and discipline flight patterns. This goes for inst approaches as well. By the time you are on 10 mile final, if you can't see the runway and people are landing in the pattern, you need to adjust your planning to accommodate a pattern if needed. Sorry.
 
SkyDog58 said:
The "guy on final has right of way" rule is why many pilots like to do straight-ins. They figure that as long as they can establish right of way and do so as soon as possible that they have command of the runway and that everyone else can just pull over and wait. When some idiot is calling straight in several miles out and you are in the pattern, it is a good time to go short and use all of the runway.
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In this scenario you presented there is only one person wanting to "have command of the runway" and force others to "pull over and wait." (It's you.)
 
I regularly fly the approach. Usually that means I am on final ten out. I try to say I'm flying whatever approach, but sometimes it comes out final. Other day was flying into class c. Vfr They like you to announce within 20 miles and usually if you are further will tell you to check in later. I called in when about 50 out and they asked where I was. Told them and they hesitated for second then gave me my squawk. At the speed I was going I was 9 +minutes from airport.
 
Stingray Don said:
I was trained to call "straight in" and not use the word "final" until actually on final. However, it is not uncommon at my home drome to hear someone call a 10 mile straight in final. I just make sure I can land safely ahead of them otherwise I just extend downwind until they pass by. If you are 10 miles out then you are not on final - period.
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Exactly.
 
SkyDog58 said:
The "guy on final has right of way" rule is why many pilots like to do straight-ins. They figure that as long as they can establish right of way and do so as soon as possible that they have command of the runway and that everyone else can just pull over and wait. When some idiot is calling straight in several miles out and you are in the pattern, it is a good time to go short and use all of the runway.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I've heard the older guys call out this sort of business, and remind the pilot on "10 mile final" that there's 3 aircraft in the pattern and a 45 degree entry would be the better choice....
 
It is not possible to be on "final" ten miles out. Even class D you are not in controlled airspace until 5 miles out. The stop sign analogy isn't exactly applicable, someone might be a mile and a half but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be able to see him.
 
James331 said:
That.

10 mile final sounds to me a lot like someone on a instrument approach, I'm a fan of using as little instrument jargon as possible over CTAF, I'd rather be clearer for non IR pilots.

You could always just hit the button on your yoke, "Citation on 10 mile final, this is skyhawk 4TM, tight base, I'm going to squeeze in infront of you OK"

Also keep in mind the type, a 10 mile final for a Lear is not the same for you as a 10 mile final for a J3 :D
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Exactly. Communicate. Common Traffic Advisory Frequency.
 
Firefighter_324 said:
I would say it depends on what I am flying that will determine when I call final.. You fly a Citation faster than a 172 on final.. I wouldn't want them to call final 2 miles out.. 10 miles would bring it more in line with the timing of the call.. Now if a Taylorcraft calls a 10 mile final and you have to wait 10 minutes for them to get there.. then I would be slightly annoyed..
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Good point. In the CRJ our SOP requires that we be fully configured, stabilized and aligned with the runway at five miles. So we do a five mile final at around 140 kts, depending on weight. We will be on the ground two minutes later.
 
I don't know how anyone got the idea that using the word 'final' vs. 'straight-in' conveys any meaning regarding right-of-way rules. In real life pilots use these words interchangeably, so even if you think they have a certain meaning the person saying them may not have any idea that you interpreted their words that way.
 
LDJones said:
Good point. In the CRJ our SOP requires that we be fully configured, stabilized and aligned with the runway at five miles. So we do a five mile final at around 140 kts, depending on weight. We will be on the ground two minutes later.
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What is the SOP when there's a spamcan turning short final in front of you?

If I'm downwind abeam the threshold, and you call 10 mile straight in(4 mins), as the OP stated, I think you may need to reconfigure for a missed.
 
Old Geek said:
I've heard the older guys call out this sort of business, and remind the pilot on "10 mile final" that there's 3 aircraft in the pattern and a 45 degree entry would be the better choice....
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Better for whom? Doesn't it depend on the aircraft involved? I understand where they're coming from, but if we're all communicating we should be able to work it out.

I was working with a student at an uncontrolled last weekend. I guy called a long final. We extended our downwind for 30 seconds til we saw him then followed him in. No big deal.
 
docmirror said:
What is the SOP when there's a spamcan turning short final in front of you?

If I'm downwind abeam the threshold, and you call 10 mile straight in(4 mins), as the OP stated, I think you may need to reconfigure for a missed.
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I'm always ready for that, although you don't need to reconfigure until you decide to miss, at least not in our airplane.
 
docmirror said:
What is the SOP when there's a spamcan turning short final in front of you?

If I'm downwind abeam the threshold, and you call 10 mile straight in(4 mins), as the OP stated, I think you may need to reconfigure for a missed.
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We're always prepared for a go-around. It would be a bad day for everyone if we weren't. But we will swing out on a five mile pattern at 1500' AGL and be doing it again. Thankfully that's pretty rare. Most of the GA pilots I know are pretty accommodating of the scheduled carriers trying to get grandma to the reunion on time.
 
Old Geek said:
I've heard the older guys call out this sort of business, and remind the pilot on "10 mile final" that there's 3 aircraft in the pattern and a 45 degree entry would be the better choice....
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Please explain why you feel that is a better choice.
 
Silvaire said:
It is not possible to be on "final" ten miles out. Even class D you are not in controlled airspace until 5 miles out. The stop sign analogy isn't exactly applicable, someone might be a mile and a half but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be able to see him.
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Only if you are within 700 feet of the surface.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm always ready for that, although you don't need to reconfigure until you decide to miss, at least not in our airplane.
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Which is why I said MAY and THINK.

In the real world, I always have and generally will defer to kero burners. I do it down in Houston once in a while when needed, and I've been very generous giving way to jets and big traffic. That will remain my personal choice right up until they start taking advantage of it, then my attitude will get much worse, very quickly.

Frex; About 3 years ago at Sugarland, we had a bereavement flight come in and deliver a fallen soldier back to his home. I was trying to depart, and of course had to wait on the ground. Which I did respectfully. Now, the fed funded, and chartered twin jet that provides this service is done with his bereavement flight. I get out to the ramp, do my pre-flight, get a briefing, fire it up and I'm taxiing to the ramp when ground tells me to pull to the side and give way to the XYZ jet. Yes sir, will do sir. So, he goes by, and taxis down toward the departure end, and I call tower 'ready to go, intersection take off from here with 2400 feet remaining.' Tower couldn't think of a reason to deny me and gave me cleared for option, pilot discretion. Cya.
 
docmirror said:
Frex; About 3 years ago at Sugarland, we had a bereavement flight come in and deliver a fallen soldier back to his home. I was trying to depart, and of course had to wait on the ground. Which I did respectfully. Now, the fed funded, and chartered twin jet that provides this service is done with his bereavement flight. I get out to the ramp, do my pre-flight, get a briefing, fire it up and I'm taxiing to the ramp when ground tells me to pull to the side and give way to the XYZ jet. Yes sir, will do sir. So, he goes by, and taxis down toward the departure end, and I call tower 'ready to go, intersection take off from here with 2400 feet remaining.' Tower couldn't think of a reason to deny me and gave me cleared for option, pilot discretion. Cya.
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Nothing unusual about that. Tower often gives intersection departures to airplanes while others are taxiing to the end. I'm guessing that in your situation tower did not know, until you asked, that you were not going to use the full length.
 
James331 said:
10 mile final sounds to me a lot like someone on a instrument approach, I'm a fan of using as little instrument jargon as possible over CTAF, I'd rather be clearer for non IR pilots.
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10 miles FAF to MAP is a VERY long final on an instrument approach. Even on an ILS, I don't see many longer than 8 miles. VOR and RNAV approaches seem to be around 5 miles.
 
I usually join on the downwind at flat land airports, but not always. When I do go straight in I usually say it that way - and I do like to call 10 miles out to hear who's around because it helps me decide if I still want to go straight in or do the pattern. If I say 10-mile final, it's just for advisory purposes - I mean straight in. I suspect this is what the vast majority of pilots mean in that situation. I've been in the pattern many times when a guy calls in 10 out. I don't even care at that distance other than to mentally note that there's a plane out there on a straight-in. I look for him. I'm not going to extend downwind for a guy that far out UNLESS he's a very fast mover.

I've never thought of using some obscure interpretation of ROW rules to gain some kind of landing advantage when stating my position relative to an airport. I observe ROW rules to keep from a) having a mid-air or b) cutting someone off (which seldom happens unless you're violating a ROW rule anyway).
 
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I generally call my distance from the airport and straight in for runway blah blah until I am 5 miles out, then it's 5 mile final runway blah blah.
 
I'm with Ed on this one.

Frequently I fly as a safety pilot and the guy is calling out waypoints from the plate he's staring at. I'll often key up and say "xray zebra alpha is 8 north straight in"

The VFR guys don't always know where the heck those reporting points are, let alone what VOR Alpha might look like. (yes, in this example I used VOR A which is rarely straight in)

Used to worry me as a student. So now as a safety pilot I let the PIC do it as would in a reality, but add the "extra data" to others operating.
 
"Podunk traffic. Experimental blah blah blah, slow mover, 5 south west planning a straight in for runway 4, Podunk"
 
Note that violation history has determined that straight-in traffic doesn't have right-of-way over traffic established in the pattern.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Note that violation history has determined that straight-in traffic doesn't have right-of-way over traffic established in the pattern.
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Link? I'd be interested to see what the full ruling really says.
 
roncachamp said:
Please explain why you feel that is a better choice.
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Because non-towered airports work by the cooperation of all pilots. The FAA has established through convention that a 45 degree entry to downwind is the "best" way to enter the pattern and published guidance to that effect in the AIM and other official publications. Yes, the AIM is only regulatory through 91.13.

You can enter the pattern almost any way you want, but if you cause problems in the air by doing it, you are in the wrong. Based on on the non-regulation guidance on the issue, causing a problem by not doing a 45 degree entry implies liability.
 
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