Right climbing turn - significant right rudder

DesertNomad

DesertNomad

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DesertNomad
I have my PPL and about 175 hours. Today I took out a 172 that I rarely fly - I do fly a different 172 quite often. I was flying the (right-hand) pattern doing touch and goes.

When turning right-crosswind it seemed like a very large amount of right rudder was needed to keep the ball centered. I was banking 15 degrees holding Vx but it didn't feel quite right - I had the ball about 1/2 to 3/4 out of the box to the right and adding more rudder just felt like it wanted to roll too far right. I shallowed out the turn on that and the next few circuits.

Could this 172 be rigged not quite true? It is a trainer and the ball is not quite centered when sitting on the ground at idle... the ball sits very slightly to the right.

Thoughts?

In a right-climbing 15 degree bank, Vx turn, how much more rudder pressure should be needed vs a straight-and-level climb? It felt like 3x would be needed... much more than the other 172 I fly.

Something was just weird...
 
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Don't overthink it. You need to hold some right rudder in a straight ahead climb due to slipstream yaw and slight P-factor. You also need rudder to counter adverse yaw when banking the airplane. Some airplanes may need a very slight amount of rudder held in shallow turns due to dihedral effect trying to right the airplane. Put it all together. So whatever rudder you're holding in a climb, add as required for the turn. Yes, lots may be needed when rolling into a climbing right turn. And try to forget the ball. Learn to feel coordination through your ass in the seat. It's something you have to learn to pay attention to. Learn that and the ball will become irrelevant. Due to the mounting location compared to the roll axis, many skid balls give erroneous indications as the airplane is in the process of rolling. Skid balls are pretty sloppy. That's why glider pilots use yaw strings. Unfortunately yaw strings don't work so well with a propeller up front.
 
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Mostly I just feel the uncomfortable metal bar at the back of the seat. ;) This plane's interior is about a 2/10 on a good day.
 
It is SUPPOSED to take lots of right rudder in a climbing right turn.

Climbs take full power, which takes right rudder. Turning right takes right rudder. Doing both takes both amounts of right rudder.
 
It just seemed like LOTS more in this 172 compared to my normal rental.
 
I was trained to climb at Vx to 1000' then Vy. Probably because that keeps the most runway in front of you and I fly off an 11,000' runway so landing straight ahead in the event of an engine failure is quite possible and still be on the runway.
 
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What are the engines in each Skyhawk? The Continentals are 145 hp, while Lycomings can have 150, 160 or 180 hp. As power increases, so does full throttle right rudder requirement.
 
RoscoeT said:
And try to forget the ball. Learn to feel coordination through your ass in the seat.
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Any specific tips on this? I'm just around 100 hours, and generally I'm a decent stick, but I neglect the ball already. So whether I learn to use the ball, or my ass, I would like to figure out how to pilot better. :D What does it *feel* like to be uncoordinated? I really have no idea.
 
woodchucker said:
Any specific tips on this? I'm just around 100 hours, and generally I'm a decent stick, but I neglect the ball already. So whether I learn to use the ball, or my ass, I would like to figure out how to pilot better. :D What does it *feel* like to be uncoordinated? I really have no idea.
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practice "Dutch" rolls - hold course straight while rolling left and right
 
There is one 172 I fly that does this.

It needs about as much right rudder turning right crosswind as a 182, which is a lot more than any other 172 I've seen. Even worse, it flies in a 5 deg slip with neutral controls, and if I also want a centered ball, it requires constant right rudder and left aileron pressure. The right rudder can be compensated with a lot of rudder trim, but then it turns right hands off. Really sucks for instrument training, so much that I'm switching to a Warrior.

I've complained it's out of rig, but Mx hasn't resolved that yet. The airplane is heavily used by student pilots, and the few I've talked to don't see any trouble. But I don't really know if they trim the aircraft.
 
woodchucker said:
Any specific tips on this? I'm just around 100 hours, and generally I'm a decent stick, but I neglect the ball already. So whether I learn to use the ball, or my ass, I would like to figure out how to pilot better. :D What does it *feel* like to be uncoordinated? I really have no idea.
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Fly right seat with someone else. You'll feel it then.

Especially ask for a slip, and you'll understand why passengers don't like them.
 
The more you fly different planes, you'll find that even the same models can fly slightly different. Sometimes you'll find one that requires a slightly different starting technique, it's the same with one being rigged differently and flying just a little bit different from the last one you flew.
Don't worry about it, just keep the ball centered, fly the plane, trying to keep it coordinated by feel and cross checking from time to time to make sure the ball is centered.

On climbing out at Vx to 1000', you may find out that keeping the temps in the green on a summer day in the desert SW requires you to use Vy instead of Vx.
You have to think about the actual situation you're in and sometimes adjust your flying technique accordingly. Don't just blindly and mindlessly fly the same way all the time just because you were taught a certain way.
 
Many believe that a Vx climb is a dangerous configuration. Lose an engine at low altitude Vx and you'll likely stall before you can push the nose over. For a low time guy in a low powered plane to be taught to use Vx over an 11,000' runway is unconventional to say the least. Vx is sometimes required to clear obstacles but there's little reason to use it otherwise. As for your right rudder? It may be rigging, it may be a control surface problem like a left flap not fully retracting. There may be other contributing factors as well. Talk to the aircraft's mechanic. If nobody reports a problem the mechanics won't know to address it.
 
champ driver said:
The more you fly different planes, you'll find that even the same models can fly slightly different. Sometimes you'll find one that requires a slightly different starting technique, it's the same with one being rigged differently and flying just a little bit different from the last one you flew.
Don't worry about it, just keep the ball centered, fly the plane, trying to keep it coordinated by feel and cross checking from time to time to make sure the ball is centered.

On climbing out at Vx to 1000', you may find out that keeping the temps in the green on a summer day in the desert SW requires you to use Vy instead of Vx.
You have to think about the actual situation you're in and sometimes adjust your flying technique accordingly. Don't just blindly and mindlessly fly the same way all the time just because you were taught a certain way.
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Or an even higher airspeed. Honestly, I rarely climb at Vy once I'm above the trees/obstacles, let alone Vx, unless I'm doing pattern work.
 
I don't always climb at Vx, but on a cool morning in a 172 I do (as was yesterday). On an August afternoon in a 182 I have climbed at 115mph trying to keep it cool. I'll ask my CFI about it. Thanks for the feedback.
 
Stewartb said:
Many believe that a Vx climb is a dangerous configuration. Lose an engine at low altitude Vx and you'll likely stall before you can push the nose over.
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In most airplanes - especially trainers - ou will not stall unless you pull the yoke all the way back. Otherwise, you will simply fly a parabolic arc at very low airspeed. At a very low altitude engine failure at Vx in some airplanes, this may mean you have insufficient altitude to trade for airspeed or room to pull out before hitting the ground. But you will not actually stall the airplane on a low alt. Vx engine failure unless you hold the yoke way aft. Regardless, you should lower the nose immediately, but it's not to avoid a stall as many seem to be taught. I just think it's worth pointing out technicalities that can mislead student pilots.
 
Every airplane can be trimmed a little differently. Some models of 172s have a bendable fin on the bottom rear of the rudder that might be out of trim. With just a little muscle, these can be bent a little left or right. My understanding is they allow each individual airplane to be tuned so it flies hands off in a certain configuration (we usually set them for cruise)

Unless you want to **** off the mechanic and maybe get yourself banned from your school, DON'T try to bend it yourself. If the airplane fly doesn't straight at cruise, just report the much heavier than normal right rudder so the mechanic can take a look.

Where I learned to fly, about once a year or so, someone would mess with these things and the mechanic would get an hour of free flight time fixing it and then test flying the airplane around the pattern.
 
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woodchucker said:
What does it *feel* like to be uncoordinated? I really have no idea.
Click to expand...

Sit in a chair in your living room with a couple of books under the legs on one side of the chair and your eyes closed.

When you are flying and think that you using a lot of ruder, check the ball. If it is centered, you have learned to feel coordination.
 
This too-much-rudder-needed thing is a common one in 172s. There are two springs ahead of the rudder bars that keep the pedals from flopping backward. If one of those springs breaks (and they do), you'll need way more rudder pedal pressure than usual. In the OP's case, the right-hand spring is broken and the left is pulling the rudder left, which he has to fight with right rudder.

Edit: Get the nosewheel off the ground and see if the rudder lines up with the fin or if it wants to be off to the left. That's a sure test for rudder pedal spring problems (or sometimes for a really badly-rigged system). The nosewheel has a centering cam that will drive the rudder to center in flight, with the steering bungees allowing rudder control without nosewheel movement.


A less likely problem is a failed steering bungee. The spring washer inside it can get past the crimp that holds it and it causes all sorts of issues, some of them truly dangerous.

Dan
 
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DesertNomad said:
I have my PPL and about 175 hours. Today I took out a 172 that I rarely fly - I do fly a different 172 quite often. I was flying the (right-hand) pattern doing touch and goes.

When turning right-crosswind it seemed like a very large amount of right rudder was needed to keep the ball centered. I was banking 15 degrees holding Vx but it didn't feel quite right - I had the ball about 1/2 to 3/4 out of the box to the right and adding more rudder just felt like it wanted to roll too far right. I shallowed out the turn on that and the next few circuits.

Could this 172 be rigged not quite true? It is a trainer and the ball is not quite centered when sitting on the ground at idle... the ball sits very slightly to the right.

Thoughts?

In a right-climbing 15 degree bank, Vx turn, how much more rudder pressure should be needed vs a straight-and-level climb? It felt like 3x would be needed... much more than the other 172 I fly.

Something was just weird...
Click to expand...
Every plane feels different. Read up on turning tendencies especially p-factor if you haven't already. Add as much rudder until the ball is centered. There isn't really a set answer.
 
woodchucker said:
Any specific tips on this? I'm just around 100 hours, and generally I'm a decent stick, but I neglect the ball already. So whether I learn to use the ball, or my ass, I would like to figure out how to pilot better. :D What does it *feel* like to be uncoordinated? I really have no idea.
Click to expand...
In an uncoordinated turn you'll feel yourself moving in the seat. I immediately know when students aren't using rudder. Next time you go in the plane, do some small turns left and right without rudder and will definitely feel the difference.
 
DesertNomad said:
I...Could this 172 be rigged not quite true? It is a trainer and the ball is not quite centered when sitting on the ground at idle... the ball sits very slightly to the right...
Click to expand...

It's possible but there's no way for you to verify that because when airplanes are out of rig someone will often tweak things to make it seem like it's okay. You also can't assume the turn coordinator mounting is off by simply looking at it on the ground without first leveling or verifying that the aircraft is level.

It's possible, as others have suggested, that you're just over-thinking it. Get some more time in the plane and see if it begins to feel normal to you.
 
jordane93 said:
Every plane feels different. Add as much rudder until the ball is centered. There isn't really a set answer.
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This. Every plane has her own "feel". That was one of the unexpected surprises when I first learned to fly and fly different planes.
...so many planes, ..so little time...
 
Even though this isn't my thread, thanks all for your answers. Lot's of different ideas to try.
 
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