Rest Definition

Velocity173

Velocity173

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Velocity173
For the 121 / 135 folks. Now, I’m aware of the 10 hr rest requirements that must be afforded by certificate holders. I’m also aware of the “one call policy.” But, what if you chose to do administrative work during your rest period? That’s falls under the definition of “duty” but if it’s on your own accord, would it be a violation of rest period? Perhaps a CC letter is in order. :)
 
over on team DOD, we specify what items/instances interrupt crew rest, what events trigger the start of such rest, and which falls within the discretion of the member in crew rest. I would imagine part 121/135 critters have similar guidance?
 
What is the “one call policy” ??
 
Not really… they can call, but we don’t have to answer while in rest. Thats about it for us.
 
It’s administrative… if you are on declared rest… it’s on YOU to rest.

They declare you on rest.

It’s hard to show THEY violated your rest. But not impossible.

If you are not fit for a trip, you are not “unrested” rather fatigued. The infamous “f word” to the likes of delta.
 
We have people I work with who thinks that since they took their dog to the vet or other personal appointment, starts their duty day; thus, they think they can’t work their full shift
 
Timbeck2 said:
We have people I work with who thinks that since they took their dog to the vet or other personal appointment, starts their duty day; thus, they think they can’t work their full shift
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Yeah, I’ve had people wondering how I could fly my plane before work and not be in violation of rest rules. Or some had the misconception to equate rest with sleep.
 
If the company is requiring you do to such duties, it is not rest. If you're choosing to do them on your own during your rest period, its still rest.
 
Groundpounder said:
If the company is requiring you do to such duties, it is not rest. If you're choosing to do them on your own during your rest period, its still rest.
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Could those duties still be logged for pay during that rest period?
 
Even though their jobs do not have regulated rest periods, I do my best to make sure our staff gets at least 12 hours between shifts. I recently had an employee complaining to me that I wasn't considerate of his rest because of how early his shift has to start, and that he is not allowed a full night sleep. I pointed out that he had been off shift for 12 hours, there is nothing I can do if he is unable to find time to sleep during that period. I can only guarantee rest, not sleep.
 
TCABM said:
If they’re aren’t paying me to do those duties, I sure ain’t doing them for free.
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Yeah I might be just overthinking it a bit. I was just thinking it seems like a bit of a gray area in either doing company admin work or training during the 10 hr rest period, but not considering it an interruption. Seems to be allowed in the definition of rest, it’s just not a scenario I’ve ever encountered since I never volunteer to work during my 10 hrs.
 
Velocity173 said:
Could those duties still be logged for pay during that rest period?
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I'm not sure. I know that a 135 I worked at had the FAA come down on some members of management that didn't log their office time. They would spend all day in the office, then fly a trip in the evening, or some combination thereof. But my airline employer pays me to do quarterly training on my iPad, and there aren't any restrictions on when I actually do it. In theory I could spend all night on my iPad, and then fly all day, and I don't think anyone would know or care.

Again, if the company is telling you how and when to do the work, I don't think that is rest. If its something you can do at any time, like an expense report or something, then it does not affect your rest. If you're truly concerned about it, reach out to your POI.
 
I had a POI tell me years ago that I could sit in company chairs and drink company coffee all day long, but as soon as I did any work of any kind for the company, I was on duty.

I know of one pilot who can no longer be an ATP because he came in on a weekend and washed the company airplane.
 
EdFred said:
What's the story with that?
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Falsification of duty logs makes one not of good moral character, apparently.

As it was related to me, “it was a witch hunt. Not that he didn’t deserve everything he got, but it was a witch hunt.”
 
This will all be a moot point when companies require sleep monitoring (part of a wristwatch), which is a much more accurate assessment of sleep debt and fatigue, both of which are known to make people do "stupid" appearing things. ;)
 
dbahn said:
This will all be a moot point when companies require sleep monitoring (part of a wristwatch), which is a much more accurate assessment of sleep debt and fatigue, both of which are known to make people do "stupid" appearing things. ;)
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That would be economically unfeasible from a business standpoint unless they can find ways to make people sleep on command.
 
MauleSkinner said:
That would be economically unfeasible from a business standpoint unless they can find ways to make people sleep on command.
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I agree, but as we all know, the government often drives these processes with total disregard for the economic impact to those "wealthy businesses".

Fatigue is a fascinating subject, and sleep science is quite new. Personally, I'm convinced that a lot of apparently "stupid" pilot errors are in fact caused by sleep debt, which is becoming "measurable" with newer technology. I'm not advocating for making pilots prove that they've slept enough, but I can see the government decide that it's needed.
 
dbahn said:
I agree, but as we all know, the government often drives these processes with total disregard for the economic impact to those "wealthy businesses".

Fatigue is a fascinating subject, and sleep science is quite new. Personally, I'm convinced that a lot of apparently "stupid" pilot errors are in fact caused by sleep debt, which is becoming "measurable" with newer technology. I'm not advocating for making pilots prove that they've slept enough, but I can see the government decide that it's needed.
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The government would never step in to regulating sleep because amount of sleep isn’t a one size fits all. Having a text book definition of adequate sleep doesn’t have the same affects on people equally. Just like having less than adequate would result in varying results depending on the individual.

I worked last night and I assure you, doesn’t matter how much sleep prior to coming in, if I’m awaken for a flight at 3AM, I’m not in the same physiological condition vs 3PM. The FAA knows this and they accept this.

No different in the military. The Army Aviation’s AR 40-8 states “Army crew members must have optimal physiological and psychological fitness in order to perform their duties safely and efficiently.” I used to ask my classes, “who in here is in a state of optimal physiological and psychological fitness?” Crickets. If you had to have crews that were in that state in order to fly, you’d never get off the ground.

It’s a compromise based on risk vs reward. That’s why crew rest and hours of the day the flight takes place are on some risk assessment worksheets. You identify it, put a value to it, mitigate as best ya can and press on. Rest period will never be a true go / no go criteria.
 
dbahn said:
Fatigue is a fascinating subject, and sleep science is quite new. Personally, I'm convinced that a lot of apparently "stupid" pilot errors are in fact caused by sleep debt, which is becoming "measurable" with newer technology.
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I agree on both counts.

id be interested to know what a sleep monitor would have said when I had some stress issues that caused me to be “untested” when I flew one day…my copilot said I did things he’d never seen me do before.:eek:
 
Velocity173 said:
The government would never step in to regulating sleep because amount of sleep isn’t a one size fits all. Having a text book definition of adequate sleep doesn’t have the same affects on people equally.
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Well that's where sleep science gets involved. There is pretty good evidence that despite claims to the contrary everyone needs close to seven or eight hours of sleep a day to avoid the deterioration of task performance associated with fatigue. REM sleep is the key, and most of that occurs in everyone towards the end of a series of sleep cycles that add up to seven or eight hours in total duration.
 
dbahn said:
Well that's where sleep science gets involved. There is pretty good evidence that despite claims to the contrary everyone needs close to seven or eight hours of sleep a day to avoid the deterioration of task performance associated with fatigue. REM sleep is the key, and most of that occurs in everyone towards the end of a series of sleep cycles that add up to seven or eight hours in total duration.
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Yeah for me, I like my 8 hrs. But I’m also a good sleeper…at least my phone tells me so. I’ve always worked with people though that complain they don’t sleep well and get maybe 4 hrs a night. They’re the ones sleeping in the middle of the day at work while I’m reading a book. So, for people like that, if you were to have some sort of government sleep restriction, you’d probably lose half your workforce.
 
dbahn said:
Well that's where sleep science gets involved. There is pretty good evidence that despite claims to the contrary everyone needs close to seven or eight hours of sleep a day to avoid the deterioration of task performance associated with fatigue. REM sleep is the key, and most of that occurs in everyone towards the end of a series of sleep cycles that add up to seven or eight hours in total duration.
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The problem with attempting to regulate that, would the inability to meet whatever guidelines that may be introduced become a disqualifying disability?
 
midwestpa24 said:
The problem with attempting to regulate that, would the inability to meet whatever guidelines that may be introduced become a disqualifying disability?
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Maybe not directly, but it would almost certainly expose people with sleep apnea who either didn't know they had it or suspected they did but didn't want to have to report it to their AME, as it's one of those conditions that won't be picked up on a history unless it's been diagnosed.
Velocity173 said:
Yeah for me, I like my 8 hrs. But I’m also a good sleeper…at least my phone tells me so. I’ve always worked with people though that complain they don’t sleep well and get maybe 4 hrs a night. They’re the ones sleeping in the middle of the day at work while I’m reading a book. So, for people like that, if you were to have some sort of government sleep restriction, you’d probably lose half your workforce.
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It certainly wouldn't be the first or the last government restriction that reduces a workforce. I think the government gets away with the, "But we're making flying much safer", and that usually goes over well with passengers - and voters . . .
 
dbahn said:
Maybe not directly, but it would almost certainly expose people with sleep apnea who either didn't know they had it or suspected they did but didn't want to have to report it to their AME, as it's one of those conditions that won't be picked up on a history unless it's been diagnosed.


It certainly wouldn't be the first or the last government restriction that reduces a workforce. I think the government gets away with the, "But we're making flying much safer", and that usually goes over well with passengers - and voters . . .
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Well if the government were to monitor our sleep habits for the interest of passenger safety, why not alcohol breathalyzers before reporting to work?
 
Velocity173 said:
No different in the military. The Army Aviation’s AR 40-8 states “Army crew members must have optimal physiological and psychological fitness in order to perform their duties safely and efficiently.” I used to ask my classes, “who in here is in a state of optimal physiological and psychological fitness?” Crickets. If you had to have crews that were in that state in order to fly, you’d never get off the ground.
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I recall strapped in for a few "36 hour deals". Thats the point when the hallucinations begin.

The mandated Crew Rest policies (FAR 135) require that if the daily 10 hr flight time or 14 hr duty time is exceeded due to WX or some other event beyond the pilot's control, a 16 hr rest is required. Regrettably, Scheduling does not always get notified. A lot of yelling follows and grudges are formed when the next day schedule isn't covered.
 
Maxnr said:
I recall strapped in for a few "36 hour deals". Thats the point when the hallucinations begin.

The mandated Crew Rest policies (FAR 135) require that if the daily 10 hr flight time or 14 hr duty time is exceeded due to WX or some other event beyond the pilot's control, a 16 hr rest is required. Regrettably, Scheduling does not always get notified. A lot of yelling follows and grudges are formed when the next day schedule isn't covered.
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Yeah, probably didn’t have “go pills” back then either. They gave them to us in Iraq but I never used them.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah, probably didn’t have “go pills” back then either. They gave them to us in Iraq but I never used them.
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Never saw pills. Ever. Especially 135. I learned to "know myself" as a teen age Marine behind a machine gun on a middle east mountain. To know yourself is the ultimate self hate. I don't hallucinate when rested.
I recall an FBO in NOLA that has a curtained off area filled with Lazy Boys. Always kept in the dark and other FBO customers have to keep it down or get yelled at.
 
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